Help with the small CoP question.

[Joesitz (RIP)]

The Nebelhnorn Mens Results are in and the top three finishers are: (This is not a Spoiler. We will never see this on TV.)

Craig - Canada - 63.46 Total Score
Lezin - (Russia) - 60.59
Delmore - (USA) - 60.51

My question is Is this a close race? Also, Is Lezin near Craig? Is Delmore near Lezin? Will these total scores be useful for us fans to ponder over and get something out of the athletes as well as the judging?

Joe

 

[Doggygirl]

LOL Joe...

Interesting question that I sure can't answer, even though I'm a huge supporter of the COP concept. Just to clarify, this is just the SP results, right?

I suspect this will be a critical evolutionary season for the COP system with Oly's right around the corner in 2006. I hope the officials are able to refine the system to reward the right things in what is (and probably always will be) a highly subjective sport. I will be interested in more detailed analysis! Hard to believe the GP is already underway. This year has sure flown by.

DG

 

[hockeyfan228]

The Nebelhnorn Mens Results are in and the top three finishers are: (This is not a Spoiler. We will never see this on TV.)

Craig - Canada - 63.46 Total Score
Lezin - (Russia) - 60.59
Delmore - (USA) - 60.51

My question is Is this a close race? Also, Is Lezin near Craig? Is Delmore near Lezin? Will these total scores be useful for us fans to ponder over and get something out of the athletes as well as the judging?

Joe

It would take a better statistician than I to determine if Craig's scores are statistically significant over Lezin and Delmore, but if any counting judge had given Delmore a single GOE of 1 higher, or if the counting judges combined had given Delmore a total of .5 higher on a Component score, he would be slightly ahead of Lezin. Truly splitting hairs.

On the whole, the difference between Craig and Lezin/Delmore could be:

-3 vs. base score on a triple or quad
-1 vs. +2 on a triple or quad
Two level 1 spins vs. two level 2 spins with an extra point GOE higher on the harder spins
2T vs. 3T as the second jump in the combination with the same GOE
Slighly worse 4S/3T than 3F/3T
An average of .6 better for each component score (6.1 vs. 5.5).
A large number of very small differences in scoring. The details aren't up, so it's hard to know.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

These total points, Hockeyfan, will be battered about unless we can get a grip on them. Can you imagine the pages and pages of comments that so an so was just lucky by beating what's her name by only 1.6 points, and that one judge caused it.

We all know that perfect scores (6.0) were the highest a skater could get and we glorified the skater, but we gave a lot of respect to 5.9. I was just wondering what would be a significant score under CoP to equate a stupendous skate. I was thinking of Sasha at several of her skates in GP last year received scores of 170 plus. (Much more than any of her competitors.) Could we apply a minimum benchmark of 170 to achieve a really special skate, so we can say that the skater was really special that night. Or will we be looking at scores this season reaching 200 or more?

Of course, it is irrelevant to the winner of a competition what the final scores are, but fans do like to glorify a skater for a special achievement.

Joe

BTW, Hi doggygirl and welcome back. I think it was the final result. Go to 2004-2005 Events. I think the final results are in on the Mens but not the Ladies.

 

[LBC]

Joe, Sasha got 197's as a total score last year as I just looked it up. Plushy got in the 230 range for the men. The scores for men and women are going to be different and so they'll be different ranges to look at.

You have to look at the SP and LP scores to tell what kind of skate they had as the totals can be deceiving. Sasha's highest LP was a 130 at SA and a 71 SP at SC. Those will probably be the benchmarks for next year to begin with.

 

[hockeyfan228]

Could we apply a minimum benchmark of 170 to achieve a really special skate, so we can say that the skater was really special that night. Or will we be looking at scores this season reaching 200 or more?

Because the Men have higher tech value and their Component Scores are factored by 2 in the LP (1.6 for Ladies'), there were 13 total competition scores of over 200, the top being 234.29:

Plushenko (4x), Sandu (1x), Buttle (2x), Honda (1x), C. Li (1x), Dambier (1x), Goebel (2x), Weiss (1x).

A top skate in the LP for Men garnered:

150+: Plushenko (3x, high of 158.94), Sandhu (1x)
140-149: Plushenko (1x), Buttle (1x), C. Li (1x)
130-139: Honda (2x), Goebel (2x), van der Perren (2x), Weiss (2x), Joubert (2x), Dambier (1x), Buttle (1x)

A top skate in the SP for Men garnered:

80+: Plushenko (2x, high of 81.25)
75-79: Plushenko (2x), Honda (1x), Sandhu (1x)
That seems to be the cut-off of high difficulty and a clean program
70-74: Gao (1x), Weiss (2x), Goebel (1x), Takahashi (1x), Sandhu (1x), Buttle (1x), Abt (1x).

Among Ladies, Cohen got 3 total scores between 197.19 and 197.6. The next highest score was Arakawa's 182.19. This year I'd expect to see total scores of over 200 for Ladies, particularly if the judges' keep ignoring Cohen's flutz, and she adds a 3/3; if Ando gets a reputation boost in the second score and her 3R in combo isn't downgraded to a 2R; and if Arakawa lands her 3/3's and gets credit for her presentation.

A top skate in the Ladies' LP garnered:

130+: Cohen (1x, high of 130.89)
120-129: Cohen (2x), Suguri (1x), Arakawa (1x), Kirk (1x)
110-119: Cohen (1x), Arakawa (2x)

A top skate in the Ladies' SP garnered:

70: Cohen (1x, high of 71.12)
65-69: Cohen (2x)
60-64: Suguri (2x), Cohen (1x), Arakawa (1x), Liashenko (1x)

Those should be the benchmarks for this year.

 

[Doggygirl]

Thanks Hockeyfan...

For taking the time to compile these stats from last year. I for one will be back to this thread to compare as this year unfolds. Can't wait for the season to *really* get underway!!

DG

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Yes, thanks Hockeyfan, for working that out.

If I read it correctly, the bench mark scores for showing really special achievements would be:

Men - SP: 80+ and LP: 150+

Ladies - SP: 70+ and LP: 130+

It's not exactly 6.0s but at least it gives us an idea of someone special.

Joe

 

[Jaana]

http://www.deu.de/shared/data/results/nt2004/CAT006RS.HTM

The top finnishers in Nebelhorn Trophy results actually were:

1. Graig 187,37
2. Kondakov 167,82
3. Toland 162,01

Lezin was 4th with 160.84 and Delmore 6th / 157,84.

Marjaana

Ilia Kulik photos & photolinks
http://koti.welho.com/mjylha2/index.html
Updated Sept. 2, 2004: http://koti.welho.com/mjylha2/index05c.html

 

[hockeyfan228]

http://www.deu.de/shared/data/results/nt2004/CAT006RS.HTM

The top finnishers in Nebelhorn Trophy results actually were:

1. Graig 187,37
2. Kondakov 167,82
3. Toland 162,01

Lezin was 4th with 160.84 and Delmore 6th / 157,84.

To put this in another context, from a technical standpoint, Craig's SP TES (36.6) put him in the Weiss, Goebel, C. Li, Takahashi, and Abt range from last year, and his LP TES (64.83), put him in the range of Lambiel and van der Perren. Not too shabby. (Alexander Kondakov's LP score was 64.80, so his technical skate was clearly impressive.)

Top TES score in 2003-4 was Song Gao's 41.2 (CC) in the SP and Plushenko's 77.94 (TL) in the LP.

In their SP's Lezin and Delmore were in the TES range of the weaker performances of van der Perren, Takahashi, Weiss, Joubert, and C. Li and both of Buttle's. In Lezin's LP his TES of 47.81 would have put him in the bottom 15% of TES scores, while Delmore's 40.21 surpassed only Janke's in SA and both of Davydov's, the three worst TES of the 2003-4 season.

TCS scores made the huge difference in total scores. Delmore had the highest TCS scores in both the SP (28.51 to Lezin's 26.72 and Craig's 26.86) and (marginally) in the LP (59.12 to Lezin's 54.44 and Craig's 59.08). In the SP not a single skater averaged 6+ on any TCS, and only Delmore (6 in IN) and Craig (6.14 in SS) did in the LP. Those scores would have been bottom 50% of last year's scores in the SP, but Craig's and Delmore's would have been at the very top of the middle third in the LP.

As far as the total score is concerned, Craig's 187.37 was impressive: it put him in the range of Abt's 6th at CR and 5th at NHK, van der Perren's 4th at GPF, Ferreira's 6th at NHK, Vlascenko's 4th at SA, Chiper's 7th at NHK, Gao's 4th at CC, and Sandhu's 5th at CC. That kind of score at senior GP would have earned him some money. Lezin's and Delmore's scores compared to 9th-11th place, but usually not last place. Ben Ferreira may be looking over his shoulder at Craig come Canadian Nationals, because Craig's TCS scores at Nebelhorn were better than Ferreira's were last year.

 

[SkateFan4Life]

We all know that perfect scores (6.0) were the highest a skater could get and we glorified the skater, but we gave a lot of respect to 5.9. I was just wondering what would be a significant score under CoP to equate a stupendous skate. I was thinking of Sasha at several of her skates in GP last year received scores of 170 plus. (Much more than any of her competitors.) Could we apply a minimum benchmark of 170 to achieve a really special skate, so we can say that the skater was really special that night. Or will we be looking at scores this season reaching 200 or more? QUOTE]

Indeed, I for one will miss the magical 6.0s that signified a magical, superb skating performance. A 6.0 was the benchmark for greatness - at least for that specific performance. When we think of Torvill and Dean, we think of their long, long string of 6.0s. The same goes for Michelle Kwan and other skaters who were awarded multiple 6.0s.

If an agreed-upon "highest" score for technical/artistic content can be reached for each of the skating disciplines, then perhaps a "great" performance can be seen by just looking at the scores. If 200 is the highest mark, then anything over 190 would be outstanding. Will anyone ever achieve 200? I doubt it.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I agree! I think we should scrutinize these upcoming CoP scores during the GPs, Euros, 4Cs and Worlds and come up with what we think would be a score showing that indescribable greatness that once was the 6.0s.

Joe

 

[cygnus]

Maybe, but at last worlds, there were so many 6s handed out- in all disciplines, that it essentially became meaningless as a sign of "greatness" (42, I think, although not all counted). Maybe it was the last gasp of the 6's, or maybe there were a lot of 6s in a storage locker somewhere that they had to get rid of before bringing in COP, but I think by last year's worlds, the old system was ready for replacing. And yes, I do think that a high point performance, whatever the number ends up being (230 or 240 or whatever), will be a cause for celebration, once we get used to the new system.

 

[Jaana]

Actually I don´t think that I´m going to miss the 6,0 system. For quite some years it has felt pretty much inflated and lost the meaning it had originally. A string of 6,0s has not really meant anymore something totally great and awesome. Too many times it has just looked like the judges have run out of scores and given to skaters that were last (or near to last) to skate 6,0s from performances, although e.g. winning performances, were not worth it, in my opinion. Arakawa´s great skate in Dortmund had only a technical 6,0 although the same freeskate with a later skate surely would have gotten her a string of really deserved 6,0s for presentation.

About CoP, even a bit more impressive than Graig´s score 187,37 in Nebelhorn seems to have been Alexander Uspenski´s final result 187.65 at JGP Budapest. After two events the next highest score is 166,04 by Ponsero from Courcheval event:

http://www.isufs.org/events/jgp2004/jgpsmen.htm

Here the men´s freeskate scores in JGP Budapest:

http://www.isufs.org/results/jgphun2004/SEG002.HTM

Marjaana

 

[hockeyfan228]

About CoP, even a bit more impressive than Graig´s score 187,37 in Nebelhorn seems to have been Alexander Uspenski´s final result 187.65 at JGP Budapest. After two events the next highest score is 166,04 by Ponsero from Courcheval event:

Marjaana

Definitely, and particularly impressive were Uspenski's Components scores in the SP/LP:

Total: 33.23/64.26
Skating Skills: 6.56/6.56
Transitions: 6.63/6.19
Performance/Execution: 6.66/6.53
Choreography: 6.72/6.47
Interpretation: 6.66/6.38

That puts him solidly in the top third of 2003-4 TCS scores for the SP, and at the top of the middle third for LP.

In the SP, Brauninger got five TCS scores in the low 6's, the only other skater to get a 6. Even in his flawed LP, he received high 5.9's, and that bodes well for Brauninger, if he can land his jumps consistently.

Of 24 men competiting in the LP, only one, Tommy Steenberg, scored over base (54.12 on base of 53.8), although Uspenski came very close (57.75 vs. base of 57.9). Uspenski landed a 3A/3T and 3F/2T. Second place Yasuharu Nanri received credit for three combos: 3A/2T, 3F/2T, 3T/2T, failing on the last two, but getting 1.1 credit, as they were the 11th and 12th of 13 elements. In the SP, a third of the skaters surpassed base, not including Brauninger. So the contest came down to the Compenents scores.