Hybrid System - NJS Discussion

[Joesitz (RIP)]

It's Meissner's own fault that she didnt' hold her positions long enough to get the levels. She's not a spring chicken, she's skated COP before, there's no excuse for Meissner not doing the necessary things to get her levels.

Your choice of words tells me a lot about you. Fault? Spring Chicken? Necessary? Wow!

My understanding is NO major changes to IJS will be considered by the ISU prior to the Olympics. Any significant revisions to IJS will not be considered until the 2010 Congress.

I wouldn't want to force anything on the ISU. I just want to say, there is room for improvement and my outline is just a suggestion.

 

[bekalc]

Your choice of words tells me a lot about you. Fault? Spring Chicken? Necessary? Wow!

First of all I don't hate Meissner, my words aren't directed at her, so much as her fans who are doing this whole Poor Victim Meissner thing, which is annoying me to no end.

I can understand maybe messing up one level, but Meissner got low levels on everything, and there's just no excuse for it. Meissner is not new to COP/IJS. Meissner is not new to the Senior level. She's a former world champ.

I can understand that she's having trouble with her jumps, but there's no excuse for her not to do the necessary things to get her levels up. She's got no one to blame but herself there, and I bet that right now she's blaming herself.

For her fans to blame the technical controller and say that this makes Meissner a victim or things "weren't in control is just wrong." Meissner got the same points for her triple loop that Kostner got for her triple lutz. What made the difference in the short program was levels. Kostner did her levels/ difficulty, Meissner did not. While the jumps need to be fixed, once again Meissner could have helped herself out by at least doing the necessary levels to get the points for it.

There's just no excuse for this at Meissner's level. And to blame the technical controllers or the judges is wrong. And I bet Meissner knows that one.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Much of what you said about Kimmie can be shortened to 'harsh' if that works.

I don't think of Kimmie as having the number of fans you consider as being plentiful. Not with the number of American ladies involved in Senior competition. However, I do consider some posters views on the questionable downgrades she received which even some European commentators also found questionable. I don't think Asian commentators care about this and I agree that your opinion of Kimmie's skate was poor should be permitted in an open forum. No problem, but your harsh words did resonate in my psyche and I can not do anything about that.

If your perception is that Kimmie gets too much play by American fans who are really more interested Caroline Zhang, how do you feel about the thread(s) on YuNa v. Mao?? Do they get sufficient play on the forum?

 

[Mathman]

If you want just a skating show, go see Stars On Ice or one of those Disney Skating shows.

Ouch. You make it sound like an insult to accuse someone of liking skating shows.

I do enjoy skating shows. I used to enjoy skating competitions, too.

Where I think where the competitive side is going wrong is that they are

(a) Trying to make figure skating like all other sports, and

(b) Trying to make all skaters like each other.

Instead, I think the powers that be should be celebrating what makes figure skating different from other sports and encouraging skaters to express their unique idividual talents.

When Johnny Weir came on the scene he had the smoothest triple Axel I ever saw. Now he has an OK triple Axel and a crappy quad, which garners enough CoP points to get him a medal at Worlds.

The first time saw Stephan Lambiel skate (2004 Worlds, where he finished fourth), he blew me away with the originality of his choreography, musicality and especially his spins.. The next couple of years he modified his technique to get more CoP points, won two world championships, and looked like everyone else out there.

Under the CoP, any lady who does not use four of her seven jumping passes for 2 flips and 2 flutzes just isn't a very good mathematician.

I heartily embrace the ideas put forward by GKelly on this thread. I fear, though, that ideas of this sort will be given short shrift at ISU headquarters, where the motto is:

"The CoP is doing well,
If you don't like it, go to ****"

 

[DragonPhoenix]

I heartily embrace the ideas put forward by GKelly on this thread. I fear, though, that ideas of this sort will be given short shrift at ISU headquarters, where the motto is:

"The CoP is doing well,
If you don't like it, go to ****"

Good one !!!

 

[fairly4]

The sad thing is the COP would work correctly,provided the judges and callers call the correct thing every time and correctly use the GOE's with the ur's,wrong edge, and falls,instead of abusing it all the time. they should use the technology more than the humans. It can be done.it should be done.

 

[Mafke]

What I keep saying is that CoP wasn't properly beta-tested. It was a flimsy, haphazard system that hadn't been thought through sufficiently and it was slammed into place in full crisis mode by powers-that-be that wanted to be seen as reforming while they were actually eliminating transparency and the possibility of challenge. No wonder it's a mess.

CoP began with too many levels, which immediately enocuraged skaters to do things that they could barely do (and do in an ugly, unappealing manner) in order to get points for higher levels. Spins and footwork should have begun with at most two levels at and been more about GoE.

For spins this means centering, speed and attractive positions.
For footwork this means footwork that fits the rhythm and character of the music and a minimum of upperbody movement (too often used to cover a basic lack of balance and control of the steps). I'd also eliminate the required spiral sequence for the ladies and just say that one footwork sequence can incorporate hold movements.

And a really well executed spin or footwork sequence at one level should be more highly rewarded than a poorly done spin at the higher level. By not doing this, the creators of CoP guaranteed viewers lots of fugly positions and weak wobbly spins and changes of edge for no reason whatsoever.

For jumps, there should have been groups rather than different values for each jump. I've yet to be convinced that a triple flip in competition is any easier than a triple lutz (though the lutz is harder to learn). My grouping for any number of revolutions:
axel
lutz / flip
loop
toeloop / salchow

Combinations would be worth more than the sum of their parts as would sequences (though a sequence with a halfloop would count as a combination)
I'd also encourage jump variety by given bonus points for the fourth, fifth and sixth kind of triple in a program.

For her fans to blame the technical controller and say that this makes Meissner a victim or things "weren't in control is just wrong." ...And to blame the technical controllers or the judges is wrong.

CoP was introduced in order to make it impossible for a scandal like 2002 SLC pairs to ever happen again. Not by improving judging but by muddying up the system with anonymity and unchallangeable technical specialists. Your comments seem to indicate it's working.

I'd be more reassured if a knowledgeable fan analyzed the performance in terms of what is known about CoP to see if the levels were called for. If this has been done okay, but until it has been done I don't trust _any_ ISU official. ISU has a long track record of protecting dishonest officials.

Further, in this case, the technical specialist was a KNOWN CHEATER, someone who has given up her right to have the benefit of a doubt through known dishonest behavior as an official. So yes, suspicious calls by this person are going to be rightfully met with skepticism.

Maybe in this case she was right, but Danilenko could tell me the sun rises in the east and sets in the west and I'm still going to want a second opinion.

 

[bekalc]

Much of what you said about Kimmie can be shortened to 'harsh' if that works.

I don't think of Kimmie as having the number of fans you consider as being plentiful. Not with the number of American ladies involved in Senior competition. However, I do consider some posters views on the questionable downgrades she received which even some European commentators also found questionable. I don't think Asian commentators care about this and I agree that your opinion of Kimmie's skate was poor should be permitted in an open forum. No problem, but your harsh words did resonate in my psyche and I can not do anything about that.

If your perception is that Kimmie gets too much play by American fans who are really more interested Caroline Zhang, how do you feel about the thread(s) on YuNa v. Mao?? Do they get sufficient play on the forum?

I'm not saying Meissner has all kinds of hyper fans. I'm saying that fans on this board were complaining about Meissner's scores, to the point of saying poor Meissner "had no control"

And I know for the long program, apparently the Finnish commentator was spotting some of those underrotations. Look, all I'm saying is what possible reason did the technical controller have to go against Meissner. It's not like Meissner hasn't be treated very generously by the Judges and technical controllers in the past.... And while my language may seem sharp, it's more out of annoynance for the "poor Meissner" comments than anything else.

And Yes, I was annoyed when Yu-na fans were screaming about the edge call, and when Mao fans were screaming about Rochette winning the short program.

I mean seriously if the technical controllers were going to go after someone's levels/jumps wouldn't it have been smarter to go after Rachael Flatt's too? I know some thought that the caller at Skate America was GENEROUS to Kimmie for some of her jumps in the short program. Meissner right now is having issues with underrotating her jumps.

Further, in this case, the technical specialist was a KNOWN CHEATER, someone who has given up her right to have the benefit of a doubt through known dishonest behavior as an official. So yes, suspicious calls by this person are going to be rightfully met with skepticism.

Fine. I didn't know that. But once again what motive is there to go after Meissner and not Rachael Flatt. I find it ridiculous this person is a caller, but I want to understand why this person would be going against Meissner alone. I mean Meissner had no shot at making the GPF going into Cup of Russia etc, surely it was clear Flatt was the bigger threat.

May I say that Doubletoe over at FSU is saying that she thought Meissner's loop was fine, but that the low levels on her spiral, and spins were correct because she didn't hold positions long enough. In fact many say it's a problem Meissner has had for awhile.

 

[mskater93]

I
May I say that Doubletoe over at FSU is saying that she thought Meissner's loop was fine, but that the low levels on her spiral, and spins were correct because she didn't hold positions long enough. In fact many say it's a problem Meissner has had for awhile.

I just posted similarly in the Kimmie Meissner thread here.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Becalc - Hold on a minute. If you have full trust and faith in the Tech Panels and accept other people's views if they are like yours, then there is no further purpose in continuing the discussion. you made your points. others disagreed. nobody won the debate. It's ok to move on.

btw, are you able to discuss skaters without looking at the protocols? I don't mind dissing them. Take the risk next time.

 

[bekalc]

Becalc - Hold on a minute. If you have full trust and faith in the Tech Panels and accept other people's views if they are like yours, then there is no further purpose in continuing the discussion. you made your points. others disagreed. nobody won the debate. It's ok to move on.

btw, are you able to discuss skaters without looking at the protocols? I don't mind dissing them. Take the risk next time.

I'm not a former skater, so frankly I don't have an opinion either way if something was level one level two. I suspect that some of the people who were all up in arms, are similar. I'm willing to accept the callers, mainly because I've yet to hear a reasoned argument (besides for the loop underrotation call) that Meissner deserved the levels on her spins/spirals etc. Because that's what killed her score.

Once again I'd like to know why someone would specifically target just Meissner? Basically because I recognize that I'm not the judge, I'm willing to defer to the technical callers. Whether it's Yu-na's edge calls, or Meissner's level calls. Unless I see strong evidence elsewise.

 

[Alsace]

CoP began with too many levels, which immediately enocuraged skaters to do things that they could barely do (and do in an ugly, unappealing manner) in order to get points for higher levels. Spins and footwork should have begun with at most two levels at and been more about GoE.

Here's a new perspective on it. What if we applied CoP as it stands now to skaters 40 years ago, like Peggy Fleming? Then we compared the scores from then with the scores skaters get now. TE scores might have increased by 2-4 times as much in those 40 years. Would the artistic scores (such as they are under CoP) have done the same? Of course not. How could it then be logical to mathematically add the two together to create a single point total?

Conclusion - either Presentation scores would only count for a fraction of what they once did 40 years back, or, they'd have to keep fudging up the "factoring" multiplier to compensate, to maintain the illusion that artistry actually counts for what it should.

You are both right. I do wonder if they tried too much to be like gymnastics, whose Code of Points did, I believe (or at least when I began watching it), begin with four levels (A, B, C, and D). First they added "super D" moves, then they dropped that notion. Now they are up to G, at least. The ISU will have to deal with increased difficulty messing with the scoring of the artistic elements.

 

[demarinis5]

Once again I'd like to know why someone would specifically target just Meissner? Basically because I recognize that I'm not the judge, I'm willing to defer to the technical callers. Whether it's Yu-na's edge calls, or Meissner's level calls. Unless I see strong evidence elsewise.

You may not get an answer to your first question because I don't think anyone is saying that Meissner was specifically targeted. I can't speak for other posters but I feel that the tech callers are not infallible. IMO the tech callers are all over the place and I am not willing to defer to them 100% of the time because I have seen skaters get marked very differently for making the same or similar mistakes . That is my opinion and yours is different. I am not sure what strong evidence you want presented on the subject. Maybe you could elaborate on that.

 

[bekalc]

You may not get an answer to your first question because I don't think anyone is saying that Meissner was specifically targeted. I can't speak for other posters but I feel that the tech callers are not infallible. IMO the tech callers are all over the place and I am not willing to defer to them 100% of the time because I have seen skaters get marked very differently for making the same or similar mistakes . That is my opinion and yours is different. I am not sure what strong evidence you want presented on the subject. Maybe you could elaborate on that.

Of course the technical callers are not perfect. But you have people here saying cheating the callers are out to screw Meissner etc.

 

[jenaj]

Underotating a jump and failling to count to three( which a lot of other skaters can do) is not doing a program to it's full potential. Kimmie's score was what she did on the ice. Her actions are the main source of her low score. The jugdes gave her decent PCs. Tes is mostly kimmie.

Maybe so, but that just emphasizes what is wrong with the system. Was Michelle Kwan's1998 Rachmaninoff not done to its full potential because her spirals were held for less than 3 seconds? Yes, since Kimmie is stuck with the rules as they are, she should follow them. But the rules as they are do not necessarily judge whether a program is well-skated or skated to its full potential.

 

[antmanb]

Of course the technical callers are not perfect. But you have people here saying cheating the callers are out to screw Meissner etc.

Actually you are the only person on this thread using those words. I have stated several times that skaters (all of them, not just Meissner - ask Lambiel about the questionable downgrade of his 3A at worlds that year, or Weir about his quad last year at worlds) are powerless because this is a judged sport and the judges are the ones with all the power.

Add to this the fact that at Cup of Russia the Tech Specialist is a tried and convicted cheater. That simply means that she is not to be trusted. Not that she had it in for Meissner or that anyone thinks Meissner was singled out by her for a reason.

The judges are human therefore they get it wrong some times.

Some of the judges are known and convicted cheaters who IMO have no place doing anything in the sport anymore, the calls or marks given by these judges (if we can ever know given anonymous judging) are to be viewed with extreme caution.

I think that sums it up!

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Of course the technical callers are not perfect. But you have people here saying cheating the callers are out to screw Meissner etc.

Best we move on. You are getting deeper into saying I only know what theTech Panel and judges say as gospel. Former skaters and commentators can not argue with the official judging.

 

[R.D.]

Ugh. Here we go again...this is the FOURTH thread that has been hijacked into discussing Meissner scoring...Joe is right...can we please move on from this? There is already a Meissner thread where this can be beaten even further into the ground if anyone wishes.

 

[Tonichelle]

or Weir about his quad last year at worlds

Not to mention his loss at last Nationals because of his spins being dinged by the judges.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Of course the technical callers are not perfect. But you have people here saying cheating the callers are out to screw Meissner etc.

Can you name a few or direct to their posts?