ISU releases official agenda with proposals for 2024: age limits, jump limits and more

[TontoK]

IJS has destroyed pairs even more... . Here's my two cents about choreo jump...how many delayed Axel do we want to see?

If the ISU is going to propose this, they need to give choices to skaters.. for instance, they can choose between a choreo jump, a choreo hydro blade, a choreo spiral, a choreo set of twizzles etc so that skaters select something they do well and fits the program

I am not disagreeing to @Mathman conclusions but I sincerely think one less jumping pass will be good.

If they resemble those of bygone days from Robin Cousins, Charlie Tickner, and Toller Cranston... then I want to see a whole bunch of them. I just realized I'm talking about the men because that discipline interests me more, but off the top of my head I recall beautiful open axels from Peggy Fleming and Dorothy Hamill, just to name two women.

But a choreo jump could have options beyond a delayed axel. A big open airy waltz jump could be cool at the right moment in a program. And, I also approve your suggestions as to other choreo elements to substitute for a jump. I think Adam's aerial/butterfly move merits being a standalone choreo element, for example. If he could incorporate that into a sequence of butterflies... that would be AMAZING.

 

[sisinka]

If we look at quad skaters with CLEAN Free Programs:
...
- two quad jumps - Lukas Britschgi - all jumps with positive GOE and two 4toeloops - 71.78 points for jump elements
....

I have to correct Lukas Britschgi's jump content - his Free Program at World Championships included sequence 3flip + 1Euler + 2salchow - I am sure that 3salchow was planned - this would increase his jump elements to 75.07.

In this case comparison of skater with no quad program and skater with two quad jumps - loss of the first skater would be 11.10 points.

 

[sisinka]

That is partially true as it doesn't take into account that the skaters who do a 3lz-3t or a 3Aeu3S will end up having to jump 2axels at the end of their programs for 3.8 points.... instead of someone doing a 3lz-3a Seq in their last jumping pass for 14 points

You are right, 2axel AGAINST 3lutz + 3axel doesn't have chance. But once again it is only Ilia.

Looking at Free Programs at World Championships skaters with one quad jump executed like the lowest jump element 3loop or 3salchow, somebody in the second part of the program.

Which means that Jason can get 3.63 points for 2axel in the second half of the program and skaters above gets from 4.73 to 5.39 points. Loss of 1.10 to 1.76 points.

Lukas with two quad jumps also had 3loop for 4.90 points like the lowest element, loss of 1.27 points.

I already mentioned it previously:
With one less jump element non quad skaters will sacrifice 2axel and skaters with one or two quad jumps will sacrifice 3loop or 3salchow.

For "more than three quad jumps" skaters - the loss of one jump element will be worse. Adam will lose second 3axel 8.80 points, as I do not expect he would sacrifice any other element with higher value. Ilia will lose element of value around quad toeloop or quad salchow - 9.50 to 9.70 points.

There is also another negative impact. We will lose variety of jumps. Because now with 7 jump elements only two same type triple jumps or quad jumps could be repeated, skaters were forced to include 3loop or 3salchow (some doing 3salchow in Sequence). With one less jump element and one less combination 3loop may disappear in program content of quad skaters. Most of skaters prefer Sequence with salchow. I remember only Juhnwan Cha executing combination with 3loop as the second jump. And Base Value of 3flip and 3lutz is higher, it means that skaters will pick these jumps.

Some skaters with wrong lutz edge may pick loop instead. But it would be step in wrong direction as well. Because instead of learning clean edge in lutz jump, they will replace lutz with another jump.

 

[sisinka]

If they resemble those of bygone days from Robin Cousins, Charlie Tickner, and Toller Cranston... then I want to see a whole bunch of them. I just realized I'm talking about the men because that discipline interests me more, but off the top of my head I recall beautiful open axels from Peggy Fleming and Dorothy Hamill, just to name two women.

But a choreo jump could have options beyond a delayed axel. A big open airy waltz jump could be cool at the right moment in a program. And, I also approve your suggestions as to other choreo elements to substitute for a jump. I think Adam's aerial/butterfly move merits being a standalone choreo element, for example. If he could incorporate that into a sequence of butterflies... that would be AMAZING.

As to delayed / open axel I have to mention Hana Maskova - she was competing for Czechoslovakia (today we are Czech and Slovak Republic). She was 1968 Olympic bronze medalists and 1968 European Champion, she won World bronze medal twice.

https://youtu.be/2pRUrl5HK9s?t=147 - open axel followed with 2axel.
Hanka was great jumper having enormous heights in her jumps (great height was visible even when camera was shooting from above, not from today's level).

 

[4everchan]

You are right, 2axel AGAINST 3lutz + 3axel doesn't have chance. But once again it is only Ilia.

other skaters with multiple quads also do rewarding "weakest" jumping pass, sometimes a triple axel, or a 3lz-2a-2a for instance... It doesn't have to be Ilia. My point is that the more quads you got, you don't start with a deficit unlike others.

Looking at Free Programs at World Championships skaters with one quad jump executed like the lowest jump element 3loop or 3salchow, somebody in the second part of the program.

Which means that Jason can get 3.63 points for 2axel in the second half of the program and skaters above gets from 4.73 to 5.39 points. Loss of 1.10 to 1.76 points.

Lukas with two quad jumps also had 3loop for 4.90 points like the lowest element, loss of 1.27 points.

I already mentioned it previously:
With one less jump element non quad skaters will sacrifice 2axel and skaters with one or two quad jumps will sacrifice 3loop or 3salchow.

sure. but the reality is that they will not be able to upgrade their base value either.

Who loses more with a jumping pass removed, a good jumper... that's a given. But then, when your BV is already 40 points higher than another skater, and now it suddenly becomes, what, 35 points higher ? Does it really make a difference ? No...

My point was never about who earns an advantage in BV it was always about what kind of program we may get. One less skate skate skate jump segment is welcome in my books.

 

[Diana Delafield]

If they resemble those of bygone days from Robin Cousins, Charlie Tickner, and Toller Cranston... then I want to see a whole bunch of them. I just realized I'm talking about the men because that discipline interests me more, but off the top of my head I recall beautiful open axels from Peggy Fleming and Dorothy Hamill, just to name two women.

But a choreo jump could have options beyond a delayed axel. A big open airy waltz jump could be cool at the right moment in a program. And, I also approve your suggestions as to other choreo elements to substitute for a jump. I think Adam's aerial/butterfly move merits being a standalone choreo element, for example. If he could incorporate that into a sequence of butterflies... that would be AMAZING.

After Underhill and Martini had retired from competition, they often included a gorgeous delayed throw axel in their show programs. It was like she'd taken wing and was going to fly forever.

 

[Mathman]

Ilia will lose element of value around quad toeloop or quad salchow - 9.50 to 9.70 points.

To me, that in itself is not alarming. So Ilia wins by 19 points or so over the field instead of 24. His program would not be any less interesting or any less dominant if he left out the 4S. For that matter, it would not be any more interesting or dominant if he had had an eighth jumping pass to work with and used it to throw in an exta solo 4T. (Of course if he had used it to add a 4F, then he could retire: "My work here is done." )

New rules or old, many big quads wins. I don't see this changing however the ISU tweaks the rules.

 

[sisinka]

For women, there was a leveled spiral sequence at the time when men had two leveled step sequences.

...

For example:
*Allow a second leveled step sequence with the same features available in the existing step sequence and only require that the two sequences each be performed in clear patterns (straight line/diagonal, circular, serpentine) that are different from each other
OR
*Offer two different styles of leveled step sequences with some different level features available to each, e.g., one that emphasizes edges and turns, another that emphasizes quickness and different kinds of "steps"

*Remove the clusters as a level feature from the step sequence and introduce a separate element type of one-foot turns as in ice dance?

*Restore the leveled spiral sequence as an option -- with additional level features based on blade work rather than positions, and define the requirements such that even if only 3 positions can be counted toward levels, it would also be possible to count 2 transitions between positions as features and also require a change of foot (there might be one or more ways of changing foot that could count as features)
AND/OR
*Introduce a leveled "field moves" sequence that includes level features for various spread eagle, Ina Bauer, shoot-the-duck/hydroblading positions, possibly also including spirals
AND/OR
*Introduce the "short edge element" and "combination edge element" as currently used in solo ice dance

*Introduce a figures variation element in which skaters perform two or three (or more?) tangent circles with features available primarily for turns and loops performed on the circles and transitions between circles (counters, rockers, choctaws, edge changes) but possibly also for some kinds of body position variations while performing these edges and turns

*Introduce a leveled low-revolution jump sequence element that includes at least three half- to 1.5-revolution jumps linked together by steps, turns, or smaller jumps, with features for difficult air variations and difficult connections, and for 1.5 jumps in both directions

Make the first leveled step sequence required, and then allow skaters to choose two more of the other leveled elements.

Obviously this would take more time in a program, so they wouldn't coexist with choreo sequences. You'd lose the freedom of choreo sequences as they currently exist, but the skaters who showcase good skills and artistry in their choreo sequences now would also benefit from earning levels for those skills in their chosen leveled sequences.

And different skaters would choose a different mix of these elements, so audiences would see more variety.

Yes, I know that would make a lot more work for the technical panels, which may be why the ISU has never pursued this approach.

I like you suggestions.

To me, that in itself is not alarming. So Ilia wins by 19 points or so over the field instead of 24. His program would not be any less interesting or any less dominant if he left out the 4S. For that matter, it would not be any more interesting or dominant if he had had an eighth jumping pass to work with and used it to throw in an exta solo 4T. (Of course if he had used it add a 4F, then he could retire: "My work here is done." )

New rules or old, many big quads wins. I don't see this changing however the ISU tweaks the rules.

It will be more pressure for quad men as quad jumps are more difficult. But IF clean - Ilia, Yuma and Adam will be keeping top spots.

From my previous comparison - with 7 jump elements the difference between skater with one or two quad jumps and non quad skater was around 2 points and 11 points. With 6 jump elements it will be around 0.5 point and 9.5 points.

Now quad skaters with jump mistakes are losing to non quad skaters in jump elements...with 6 jump elements they will be losing against non quad skaters even more. Which will sooner or later lead to less quad attempts. Which will lead ISU to increase Base Value of quad jumps. It will be kind of deja vu - back in 2010s. I am not sure that increasing (season 2008-09) and decreasing (season 2018-19) Base Value of jumps for each 10 years will lead anywhere.

....
My point was never about who earns an advantage in BV it was always about what kind of program we may get. One less skate skate skate jump segment is welcome in my books.

I would like to be optimistic.

Do you really believe that one less jump element will lead to more space for transitions? Significantly?

I think that skaters will sacrifice jump element with lowest Base Value. Which is usually 3loop, 3salchow, 3flip or 2axel. In case of Adam it is 3axel. In case of Ilia 3lutz + 3axel.

If we look how much time skaters need to execute these jump elements:
- Jason's 2axel - 5.7 seconds
- Deniss' 3loop - 6.0 seconds
- Lukas' 3loop - 7.4 second
- Yuma's 3flip - 11.7 seconds
- Adam's 3axel - 7.2 seconds
- Ilia's 3lutz + 3axel - 5.7 seconds

YouCut_20240511_173239790.mp4

Visit this link to download: YouCut_20240511_173239790.mp4

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Ilia executes his jump combination right after Ina Bauer as a part of Choreographic Sequences element, so his preparation time for the jump is around 0.3 seconds. That is real saving time for non jumps elements.

One less jump element with lowest Base Value means additional time from 5.7 to 11.7 seconds. Yes, it is better than nothing, but not really too much.

Overall flip, lutz and quad jumps are taking more time than 2axel or 3loop.

Surprisingly Ilia's quad jumps time is shorter than almost all Jason's triple jumps time. Only Ilia's 4axel takes more time. Ilia's 4loop and 4lutz and Yuma's 4salchow take less than 10 seconds, that's unbelievable. Jason's first three jump elements take over 10 seconds without jumps itself, with time of jumps it is more than 12, 13 and 15 seconds.

Another quad attempts (including combinations) from men above took from 10.8 to 15 seconds, which is still around Jason's time and Deniss' jump time for combinations.

But we may expect quad men from top 7 to 24 taking more time to execute quad jumps.

If we would really want to give skaters chance to have more space for transitions, we would need to persuade them to sacrifice jump elements which take the longest time in their Free Programs.
These are examples:

YouCut_20240511_173807233.mp4

Visit this link to download: YouCut_20240511_173807233.mp4

files.fm

But I can no way imagine that they would sacrifice these jump elements. Mission impossible.

 

[el henry]

The quadsters were always dependent on going clean, the new rules don't change that. If they feel more pressure, good. Maybe they will do less quads and do them clean.

Doing less quads or doing them less well should not impact the future assessment of BV. I don't see that happening, unless there is a premise that quad jumps must at all times and in all places have (IMO) inordinately high BV. That is a premise, not a fact, so the change would only occur if one accepted that premise, and I for one reject that premise.

We don't know if one less quad will lead to more choreo/spins/skating and other elements in a program, but as the old saying goes, nothing beats a failure but a try.

So let's try.

 

[4everchan]

I like you suggestions.



It will be more pressure for quad men as quad jumps are more difficult. But IF clean - Ilia, Yuma and Adam will be keeping top spots.

From my previous comparison - with 7 jump elements the difference between skater with one or two quad jumps and non quad skater was around 2 points and 11 points. With 6 jump elements it will be around 0.5 point and 9.5 points.

Now quad skaters with jump mistakes are losing to non quad skaters in jump elements...with 6 jump elements they will be losing against non quad skaters even more. Which will sooner or later lead to less quad attempts. Which will lead ISU to increase Base Value of quad jumps. It will be kind of deja vu - back in 2010s. I am not sure that increasing (season 2008-09) and decreasing (season 2018-19) Base Value of jumps for each 10 years will lead anywhere.



I would like to be optimistic.

Do you really believe that one less jump element will lead to more space for transitions? Significantly?

I think that skaters will sacrifice jump element with lowest Base Value. Which is usually 3loop, 3salchow, 3flip or 2axel. In case of Adam it is 3axel. In case of Ilia 3lutz + 3axel.

If we look how much time skaters need to execute these jump elements:
- Jason's 2axel - 5.7 seconds
- Deniss' 3loop - 6.0 seconds
- Lukas' 3loop - 7.4 second
- Yuma's 3flip - 11.7 seconds
- Adam's 3axel - 7.2 seconds
- Ilia's 3lutz + 3axel - 5.7 seconds

YouCut_20240511_173239790.mp4

Visit this link to download: YouCut_20240511_173239790.mp4

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Ilia executes his jump combination right after Ina Bauer as a part of Choreographic Sequences element, so his preparation time for the jump is around 0.3 seconds. That is really saving time for non jumps elements.

One less jump element with lowest Base Value means additional time from 5.7 to 11.7 points. Yes, it is better than nothing, but not really too much.

Overall flip, lutz and quad jumps are taking more time than 2axel or 3loop.

Surprisingly Ilia's quad jumps time is shorter than almost all Jason's triple jumps time. Only Ilia's 4axel takes more time. Ilia's 4loop and 4lutz and Yuma's 4salchow take less than 10 seconds, that's unbelievable. Jason's first three jump elements take over 10 seconds without jumps itself, with time of jumps it is more than 12, 13 and 15 seconds.

Another quad attempts (including combinations) from men above took from 10.8 to 15 seconds, which is still around Jason's time and Deniss' jump time for combinations.

But we may expect quad men from top 7 to 24 taking more time to execute quad jumps.

If we would really want to give skaters chance to have more space for transitions, we would need to persuade them to sacrifice jump elements which take the longest time in their Free Programs.
These are examples:

YouCut_20240511_173807233.mp4

Visit this link to download: YouCut_20240511_173807233.mp4

files.fm

But I can no way imagine that they would sacrifice these jump elements. Mission impossible.

what it will eliminate is the 4 jumping passes in a row that are skate skate skate jump repeat times 4. If the 10% bonus remains after the 2 minute mark, you bet skaters will have to do something else than crossovers before getting there

maybe you are right. maybe it will not change anything but i remain hopeful

 

[Mathman]

Did we ever get a definitive clarification on repeatting jumps of the "same type"? Jason Brown did 3A+2A, 3A and unteded 2A popped into 1A. Wesley Chiu did 4T, 4T+2T, and 3F+3T.

 

[jorge2912]

Page 76, the Netherlands is proposing an automatic 50% reduction on base value for a fall on a jump with the added -5 GOE (so a 4A with a fall would be at 6.25 BV with -5 GOE for a score of 3.13)

The Netherlands wants all quadsters to be punished for a fall. The Violations deduction chart will no longer include falls, and instead a fall will be attached to an element and reduce the base value by 50%, just like with a downgrade. So... how are we doing downgraded jumps then? You get 0% of the BV if you fall?

i wonder if the criteria is strict ,they must set a minimal final element value for avoid to 0 ,because 0 is like you never made quad jumps or element absent . i think that proposal can detrimental to the creativity that is the basics on FS ,is ok that on SP .

Germany wants a point deducted in ice dance for every time the skaters adjust the music to fit a certain tempo. Which... like... that's a lot of music and also how are you going to check that? Is Barbara Fusar-Poli going to go all detective and listen to the two pieces to determine if they've been altered?

i think is a good proposal because i seen some rhythm and free dances and frankly is not aesthetically right , but what will do before every competition ,judges will listen the music of any team and look by gracenote or any other musical media for verify is the tempo is right? i see that can be hard and no practical . maybe on RD can do that proposal but is hard and impossible because if were on that way ,free dance name it would be contradictory name also what can do if the tempo is not right? ask for redo all a program again ? that about rhythm is as subjective and there are as many criteria as people on the earth and different criteria about tempo. maybe Patrick Jane can guess before if the judging board will agree that the music is with the right tempo, lol

An Euler will no longer be counted as a listed jump. It will have no value and will not be counted as a jump in a combination (ie a 2A+1Eu+3S is now a 2-jump combo). It may not be executed in the SP and only once in the FS. A step-out Euler will still be counted, and you may not change foot in an Euler.

is ok because is a connecting jump ,the logical is that can be counted as jump but how can evaluate a jump combination fully if the Euler jump is 0 ?. i wonder what will happen if falls during that Euler? taking in consideration that can affect to whole combination.

Somersault type jumps and choreographic lifts with wrong holds are now permitted (Canada I found another typo for you to fix here, the ISU wrote except Chorographic Lift:;"

lol , the ode to do wrong things (sorry, I'm purist and i learned that every lift have their right hold ) .. that can compromise safety of the pair on the ice because a wrong hold .

A singles FS will now contain a choreographic spin, six jumps, and two combination for both juniors and seniors. In both programs, one jump still must be an axel-type jump

is good but for that needs a music that have rhythm and allow do a choreographic spin ,in other words not all the kind of music allows that because must be not only melody also express feelings for do a choreographic spin and match with musical character.

A jump type, regardless of number of revolutions, may only be included three times or less in a FS, which means that you cannot to two 4Ts and two 3Ts. You can still only jump two 4Ts and two 4Ss and then not repeat another jump.

Is really Free skating?

A choreographic spin must match the music, have three revolutions executed on a blade, any position is allowed. If it cannot be identified, the third spin will be marked as a ChSp regardless of whether it is or not. Like the choreo sequence, it will have a fixed BV and be scored on GOE

is good idea but also a double edge weapon (literally talking) can benefit or be detrimental

Pairs will have two lifts and one choreographic life, and one choreo spin, in the FS. Only two jump combos are allowed. A choreographic lift must be ascending and descending whilst moving across the ice and have a minimum of one revolution. A choreographic spin is similar to the singles one. The pairs choreo sequence will be removed in the FS.

pairs choreo sequence out? i wonder if are adding choreographic lifts ,why remove pairs choreo? is no sense proposal

Ice dance wants to change the definitions for cross roll, mohawk, choctaw, and swing rocker or counter. Dance lifts will have a minimum length of three seconds

the dance lift is ok but 3 seconds on the main stage of the lift or during all the lift stages? is a good idea but need be clarified

 

[4everchan]

Did we ever get a definitive clarification on repeatting jumps of the "same type"? Jason Brown did 3A+2A, 3A and unteded 2A popped into 1A. Wesley Chiu did 4T, 4T+2T, and 3F+3T.

it doesn't really matter what Jason or Wesley did. When the rules change, they will just pick have another layout... it corrects itself anyway because the extra axel can be ditched as it was the 7th pass and the extra double toe for wesley will definitely vanish too as with one less jumping pass... oh yeah said that already (but just to make sure, he would simply bring he 3t to the combo and ditch a lower bv jump somewhere... Wesley is planning to bring new quads anyway, so he may not even repeat the 4t anymore... it will be interesting

 

[saine]

i wonder if the criteria is strict ,they must set a minimal final element value for avoid to 0 ,because 0 is like you never made quad jumps or element absent . i think that proposal can detrimental to the creativity that is the basics on FS ,is ok that on SP .

It won't make the value 0. Under the proposed system, a fall on a 4T (BV 9.5) would have it scored at 2.38 (50% BV reduction and -5 GOE). So they'd still get some points.

Under the current system though, a fall on a 2T (BV 1.3) would be 0.65, and then with the -1 deduction for the fall (if it's the first), -0.35 for the score. So it's worth negative points overall. Under the proposed system, it would be worth 0.33, so no longer in the negative for the score.

What is interesting are the ramifications for TES. When Andrew Torgashev went to Challenge Cup 2023 for his TES minimums, he had a fall on a 4T< and 3Aq in the short and got his TES minimums for Worlds at 35.5.

So here's a comparison of the current system and the proposed one with those jumps:

Jump	Actual TES Score	With Proposed TES Change
4T<	3.8	1.9
3Aq	4.0	2.0

Since deductions are for the overall score, the -2 deductions didn't affect his minimums. Under the proposed system, his TES would have been 31.6 and he would not have made the Worlds minimums with that score.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

Since I don't think anybody else has commented about it.

• Japan has the best proposal EVER. Competitions should not begin earlier than 9am and cannot finish later than 10pm. Thank you, as I (and the athletes) very much so enjoy sleeping and not waking up at 4:30 in the morning for official practice

For clarity, the rule is currently 9am to 11pm. So, the Japanese are proposing trimming an hour off the end of the day.

Thoroughly agree with the logic behind this proposal. BUT...

Would it not make more sense to have it as 10am to 10pm (i.e. trimming an hour off the start of the day as well as the end of the day), to allow for YouTube having the 12 hour limit when they archive livestreams?

That way morning practices could also start a bit later, allowing the skaters some extra time in bed before they have to get up and get ready for going to the rink.

To perform at your best, getting enough rest is just as important as getting enough training and practice.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[4everchan]

Since I don't think anybody else has commented about it.



For clarity, the rule is currently 9am to 11pm. So, the Japanese are proposing trimming an hour off the end of the day.

Thoroughly agree with the logic behind this proposal. BUT...

Would it not make more sense to have it as 10am to 10pm (i.e. trimming an hour off the start of the day as well as the end of the day), to allow for YouTube having the 12 hour limit when they archive livestreams?

That way morning practices could also start a bit later, allowing the skaters some extra time in bed before they have to get up and get ready for going to the rink.

To perform at your best, getting enough rest is just as important as getting enough training and practice.

CaroLiza_fan

You think athletes wake up that late? Haha. 9am is not early at all

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

You think athletes wake up that late? Haha. 9am is not early at all

No, I know they have to get up at 4 or 5 o'clock at the latest to be ready to do their practices at 5 or 6 o'clock before the competitions start at 9 o'clock. That is why I would like the competitions to start later, so that the practices can start that bit later and they can get an extra hour in bed.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[4everchan]

No, I know they have to get up at 4 or 5 o'clock at the latest to be ready to do their practices at 5 or 6 o'clock before the competitions start at 9 o'clock. That is why I would like the competitions to start later, so that the practices can start that bit later and they can get an extra hour in bed.

CaroLiza_fan

Competitions never started that early to begin with at worlds this year. Training did. But not competitions. The proposal is a window, it doesn't mean event organizers will go 9am to 11pm. Nobody wants that anyways, including fans. However, when one starts to put too many time restrictions, it becomes difficult to make things happen. I am fine with a 9am to 10 pm start. Japan seems to be fine with that too... Let's see how this turns out to be.

 

[sisinka]

...

[Historical factoid, not about skating -- in the early years of the twentieth century behavioral psychologists in America floated the idea that all babies are born ambidetrous. They become right-handed because their parents always put their spoon or toy into their right hand. A few bad-temperred and obstinate babies resist their parents' wishes and go left-handed instead.

This justifies dsicrimination against left-handed people, for instance in providing only right-handed desks in schools -- serves them right for being so contrary.

Psychomotoric development in new born child must be symmetrical, both sides used equally. If not child must undergo Rehabilitation treatment to activate weaker side and to reach symmetry.

After 18th months of baby - one hand starts to be preferred. Final hand laterality comes after 5th year of age.

It is not what parents try to do, child himself / herself starts with preferred hand.
Although in same cases parents can re-learn hand laterality, but in this case you really need ambidextrous child.

 

[Diana Delafield]

You think athletes wake up that late? Haha. 9am is not early at all

Oh, I dunno. One reason my partner and I got along so well was that we were both night owls. The only time we skated before about 10 a.m. was at competitions when pairs practice times were fixed, and then we did a lot of languid stroking and hanging on the boards "discussing with our coach". To this day my favourite time to skate is the hours around midnight, which has been a help over the recreational years because I could rent cheap private ice at that time at municipal arenas.

On the other hand, any morning lark who dares chirp at me better have a good medical insurance plan. When I was at UBC getting my starter degree, my BA, I chose my optional courses in part by their scheduled time. Any otherwise interesting-sounding course that started at 8:30 a.m. was regretfully crossed off my list while I looked for some other course that started at 10:30 or later.