ISU to allow "neutral" skaters from RUS/BLR to compete at 2026 Olympics

[Mathman]

• Nominated Athletes and their support personnel must have not associated in any way with any person serving a period of ineligibility for an Anti-doping rule violation - That could pretty much take out the Tutberidze and Plushenko skaters (and that could actually explain why Kamila has filed a new appeal just a few days ago.

I understand that this is what the ISU has proclaimed. I wish they hadn't.

A penalty is a penalty when the ref calls it, otherwise it isn't. A time honored sporting tradition.

There is also a sporting tradition of complaining about the refs. That's what I am doing.

 

[4everchan]

It does beg a greater question - when an Olympic medal is/has been stripped due to doping, are there any sanctions/bans/etc. placed on anyone other than the caught athlete?

Yes. Some coaches and docs have been banned before.

For instance

WADA Publishes List Of Banned Coaches And Support Staff For Doping Violations; Italy Leads Tally With 61

The World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) has issued a list of 114 individuals suspended or banned for life for anti-doping rule violations.

www.swimmingworldmagazine.com

 

[4everchan]

I understand that this is what the ISU has proclaimed. I wish they hadn't.



There is also a sporting tradition of complaining about the refs. That's what I am doing.

Well, if we can complain... Let me do a bit of that... I complain that the IOC has imposed this on the ISU. I had no issue seeing neutral athletes in other sports recently, whether it is at worlds or Olympics... But honestly, in figure skating, with all the drama we have suffered recently, Russia deserves a time out. The IOC should have had the balls to do such a thing for once.

 

[Mathman]

Yes. Some coaches and docs have been banned before.

For instance

WADA Publishes List Of Banned Coaches And Support Staff For Doping Violations; Italy Leads Tally With 61

The World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) has issued a list of 114 individuals suspended or banned for life for anti-doping rule violations.

www.swimmingworldmagazine.com

Fine. If coaches misbehave, then ban the misbehaving coaches. If President Putin is the Devil, exorcise him. What does that have to do with Adeliia Petrosian?

If we are tired of the whole mess, we can take our ball and go home. Or take the other guy's ball and tell him to go home. What do we hope to achieve by pointing fingers at Miss Petrosian and saying, shame on you -- you you you Russian you!!!!

 

[Mathman]

Well, if we can complain... Let me do a bit of that... I complain that the IOC has imposed this on the ISU. I had no issue seeing neutral athletes in other sports recently, whether it is at worlds or Olympics... But honestly, in figure skating, with all the drama we have suffered recently, Russia deserves a time out. The IOC should have had the balls to do such a thing for once.

I guess what I am trying to say is this. No Russian skater is a member of the ISU. The Russian Feseration is. If the ISU has something to say, say it to the big boys. Neither the ISU nor the IOC should be in thw business of drawing up naughty-nice lists of Russiam skaters (bad) and "Neutral" skaters (good).

 

[Mathematician]

Fine. If coaches misbehave, then ban the misbehaving coaches. If President Putin is the Devil, exorcise him. What does that have to do with Adeliia Petrosian?

I'm still quite confident she'll be fine, and allowed to compete. If so, I dont see a big deal with these rules. If they actually ban Eteri's whole team, it would be very weird. Again, it'd be as if they did this whole ploy on purpose, dragging on months for the entire community, just to dig into Russia rather than leave them banned. Its not really something that happens on that level. It would also probably hurt them commercially a lot. The only explanation would be rather conspiratorial, like some big psyop.

The only claim they could have on Eteri is that technically speaking, Valieva's ban officially counts from 2021 when she was coached by Eteri. You mentioned they need to charge her with something, you are correct. A charge suggests a discrete instance in time(s). They would have to reference exact time(s) when/where this happened. Theres nothing against Valieva in the rules, but against actively banned athletes. So if they claim 2021, well, Eteri never in her life had a connection with an actively banned athlete at any real point in time where "2021" was actually happening. If they apply Valieva's status retroactively on Eteri, it would be effectively changing the past, but also keeping part of it; keeping the fact that Eteri coached Valieva, but adding that Valieva is all of a sudden now banned, and I cant imagine something like that would be considered in law. Again, its possible for sure, the opportunity is there for them to play metaphysics, but it would be weird. I would be very surprised and it would be an awful sign for where we are headed societally. I mean this from a purely legal perspective. It would be a scary precedent if they allowed that sort of reasoning in such a high profile case, and it would also raise massive questions as to why they started this all in the first place.

As for people who suggest Eteri had something to do with the doping, well, you could be right, maybe its even highly logical and I wouldn't debate against you, but point is legally shes innocent until proven guilty. Legally the only proven factor is a banned substance in Valieva's system, any other speculation wont hold up.

 

[4everchan]

As for people who suggest Eteri had something to do with the doping, well, you could be right, maybe its even highly logical and I wouldn't debate against you, but point is legally shes innocent until proven guilty. Legally the only proven factor is a banned substance in Valieva's system, any other speculation wont hold up.

Who else ? It's not even about speculation at this point. She was most likely involved one way or another. It's also about the whole drama that went on. The whole world saw it. The whole world who only watches skating at the Olympics, so once every four years, still ONLY remembers about the women's LP. I have nothing against Adeliia Petrosian. She's a great skater. But I do not wish for the whole world to see, once again, Eteri in the KnC dealing with a young teenager. If it were up to me, Eteri wouldn't be there for any of the Georgians she coaches either. Nobody. Nada. She can come back in 2030 if things are better.

We. Need. A. Break. From. Drama. At. The. Olympics

Thank you.

 

[4everchan]

I guess what I am trying to say is this. No Russian skater is a member of the ISU. The Russian Feseration is. If the ISU has something to say, say it to the big boys. Neither the ISU nor the IOC should be in thw business of drawing up naughty-nice lists of Russiam skaters (bad) and "Neutral" skaters (good).

I don't disagree with what you are saying. Either let them in or don't... Either leave it to the Federation, like it was for 2024 games or don't... The IOC here is the bad guy... The ISU is just trying to cope with what has been imposed on them. They cannot really speak up and do not forget.. the ISU is not just figure Skating. There were big Russian stars in speed skating too. We are looking at this with figure skating pink-coloured glasses fans.

At this point, the message sent from the IOC is VERY confusing and I am not talking about the rules about who may be or may not be eligible... I am talking about readmission.

As a matter of fact, the ISU is not planning to readmit the "neutral" athletes to the GP series... So.. there's that too. This is just so weird. I am guessing that the IOC wants the viewers... those who are hoping for more drama. Bad publicity is better than none.

 

[Mathematician]

Who else ? It's not even about speculation at this point. She was most likely involved one way or another. It's also about the who drama that went on. The whole world saw it. The whole world who only watches skating at the Olympics, so once every four year, still ONLY remembers about the women's LP. I have nothing against Adeliia Petrosian. She's a great skater. But I do not wish for the whole world to see, once again, Eteri in the KnC dealing with a young teenager. If it were up to me, Eteri wouldn't be there for any of the Georgians she coaches either. Nobody. Nada. She can come back in 2030 if things are better.

We. Need. A. Break. From. Drama. At. The. Olympics

Thank you.

Again I really respect your opinion, and I think reservations on Eteri are fair. Yes, you may suggest that for a personal conviction she has crossed any reasonable doubt for you. Remember, I really am speaking only in the legal sense. There is just nothing legally valid on her in regards to the conditions presented. I dont mean there is no reason to suspect her or be cautious of her, its just there is nothing you can present in court. I just dont see how the Olympics or ISU or whoever will be able to do anything about her. Pure analysis here. I provide no opinion on what anyone should think of her personally, and if people dont want to see her thats totally fine with me too, just looking at it from the court's perspective.

 

[4everchan]

Again I really respect your opinion, and I think reservations on Eteri are fair. Yes, you may suggest that for a personal conviction she has crossed any reasonable doubt for you. Remember, I really am speaking only in the legal sense. There is just nothing legally valid on her in regards to the conditions presented. I dont mean there is no reason to suspect her or be cautious of her, its just there is nothing you can present in court. I just dont see how the Olympics or ISU or whoever will be able to do anything about her. Pure analysis here. I provide no opinion on what anyone should think of her personally, and if people dont want to see her thats totally fine with me too, just looking at it from the court's perspective.

Fair enough. At the same time, let me ask a question : why is there nothing against her legally ? Why hasn't anyone, anywhere, dealt with that ? I can guarantee you that in other places, coaches who are suspected from cheating are getting in big trouble... just look at the Canadian Soccer team coach... She's done and gone... she will never work again in Canada... of course different case... no need to argue about apples and oranges here but my point is that in some other places, the kind of scandal Eteri provided at the Olympics would have been perceived differently... It seems like people only want to remember the "results " and not the "problems" that came with that. Again, just my opinion and I understand some other people may have different views on that.

 

[ajingmarg]

Fair enough. At the same time, let me ask a question : why is there nothing against her legally ? Why hasn't anyone, anywhere, dealt with that ? I can guarantee you that in other places, coaches who are suspected from cheating are getting in big trouble... just look at the Canadian Soccer team coach... She's done and gone... she will never work again in Canada... of course different case... no need to argue about apples and oranges here but my point is that in some other places, the kind of scandal Eteri provided at the Olympics would have been perceived differently... It seems like people only want to remember the "results " and not the "problems" that came with that. Again, just my opinion and I understand some other people may have different views on that.

Why should anyone deal with her legally if she is officially backed in Russia? Would anyone in the country be interested in dealing with her there?

Moreover, no foreign countries can interfere with internal legal affairs inside of Russia.

 

[4everchan]

Why should anyone deal with her legally if she is officially backed in Russia? Would anyone in the country be interested in dealing with her there?

Moreover, no foreign countries can interfere with internal legal affairs inside of Russia.

It is the responsibility of her own federation and government to deal with her. Canada is responsible for two big scandals at the games : Ben Johnson and Drone gate. Canadian authorities in both cases, led extensive inquiries and got rid of the cheaters. I cannot imagine, if Eteri had been a Canadian coach, how she would have gone away with everything that happened. So in that sense, if the ISU rules out skaters training with her, I will understand their point. Enough damage has been done at the last games.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Well, if we can complain... Let me do a bit of that... I complain that the IOC has imposed this on the ISU. I had no issue seeing neutral athletes in other sports recently, whether it is at worlds or Olympics... But honestly, in figure skating, with all the drama we have suffered recently, Russia deserves a time out. The IOC should have had the balls to do such a thing for once.

Agreed that Russia deserves a time out. But at the very least the coaching team behind Valieva, and any of their skaters.

Unfortunately the IOC lacks those, otherwise Russian athletes would be banned from the 2026 Olympics altogether. Their euphemisms/restrictions for the Russian team to penalize/dissuade them from doping were to no avail - Russia still had doping violations leading to medals stripped in 2018 and 2022.

 

[Mathematician]

Fair enough. At the same time, let me ask a question : why is there nothing against her legally ? Why hasn't anyone, anywhere, dealt with that ? I can guarantee you that in other places, coaches who are suspected from cheating are getting in big trouble... just look at the Canadian Soccer team coach... She's done and gone... she will never work again in Canada... of course different case... no need to argue about apples and oranges here but my point is that in some other places, the kind of scandal Eteri provided at the Olympics would have been perceived differently... It seems like people only want to remember the "results " and not the "problems" that came with that. Again, just my opinion and I understand some other people may have different views on that.

I'm sure people tried. You need a specific claim and evidence of it. As far as I'm aware nobody has supplied both of those things. As for the Canadian coach, I don't know about the case. If there was evidence (or a confession, or even somebody's testimony) of her involvement its clearly different, if she was punished just based on suspicion and default involvement for coach/athlete connection without direct evidence that would be an interesting comparison and discussion. Maybe ISU/Olympics rules should be changed, maybe Eteri's athletes should not be allowed, I dont know. I do understand why people dont like her. I'm just saying I think they will be allowed, regardless of if they should or shouldnt be, pretty sure that's all I've touched on in this thread. As for my personal opinion, I want to see Petrosian compete, and I'm indifferent to Eteri - I wouldn't care if she barred from attending and I wouldn't be upset seeing her there either. I just care about the skating.

 

[el henry]

It is up to the RUSSIAN FED to investigate and "prosecute" any claim against Eteri. Not the IOC, not the ISU, not Canada or the USA or Mozambique, or anyone else.

I have sincere doubts that the Russian Fed has seriously investigated any of this. Weren't they the ones that insisted that shady Doc S. be assigned to Eteri's camp to begin with?

I can understand why fans of any Russian skater would want them to compete, of course they do. If I were a fan, I would too. But the ISU would not have inserted a fairly large loophole if they wanted any particular Russian skater to compete.

We will see how they interpret it.

 

[4everchan]

It is up to the RUSSIAN FED to investigate and "prosecute" any claim against Eteri. Not the IOC, not the ISU, not Canada or the USA or Mozambique, or anyone else.

I have sincere doubts that the Russian Fed has seriously investigated any of this. Weren't they the ones that insisted that shady Doc S. be assigned to Eteri's camp to begin with?

I can understand why fans of any Russian skater would want them to compete, of course they do. If I were a fan, I would too. But the ISU would not have inserted a fairly large loophole if they wanted any particular Russian skater to compete.

We will see how they interpret it.

The ISU loopholes so far have not made me happy. Remember the one that rewarded a team including a suspended athlete with a bronze medal? I haven't yet digested that one. So no... I don't trust Rus Fed to ever do the right thing here and look for the truth and transparency... but I also do not trust the ISU and their wishy washy rules about who they will eventually let participate and potentially win medals for you know who

 

[Ziotic]

It’s not like this type of thing hasn’t happened before. Remember in 2018 only certain Russian athletes could compete by invitation.
Bukin and Stolbova were not invited due to previous doping association instances.

 

[lariko]

The ISU loopholes so far have not made me happy. Remember the one that rewarded a team including a suspended athlete with a bronze medal? I haven't yet digested that one. So no... I don't trust Rus Fed to ever do the right thing here and look for the truth and transparency... but I also do not trust the ISU and their wishy washy rules about who they will eventually let participate and potentially win medals for you know who

ISU demonstrated (wittingly or unwittingly) a rare case of integrity in the deeply hypocritical world society. This was by far better than the IOC pretending that Russia had never existed and editing history in the best revisionist traditions to edit out Russian athletes out of all the reels. Russian team competed in Beijing prior to suspension and the result revision was fair, reflecting the legal gray area. By contrast, RusFed acted in the most deplorable way possible from that day forward, and never stopped being corrupt and without a shred of anything redeemable.

 

[Skating91]

I posted it before the FS. Gumennik has an advantage of better PCS and years of narrative that he was the raising star of Russian Men while he skated in juniors, but that FS probably closed the door for him. Dikidzhi is this typical Russian story in men, when they capitalize on a brief moment between late adolescence and full-on adulthood in men and skate a few competitions with high technical content and clean. This is not the same as actual stability or mastery. If he is still in this honeymoon phase next February, great. Otherwise, he has little to offer. Calling it a year ahead is about as hard as a call on Petrsoyan--despite her brilliant performances at RusNats. After RusNats, Semenenko is probably going to be theRusFed's pick. I am sad that it's not Gumennik, tbh. I am rooting for him.

I don't know to which extent ISU will use the Ukranian list in determination of the suspected warmongers, but it can be foundational. If it is, then Semenenko is out.

And, to reiterate, I find the conditions set out by ISU too dangerous for athletes' wellbeing to be acceptable without amendments. I hope Russians excerise their bazaar hugging talents to the max to be able to qualify a substitute for each discipline in China, rather than put them all to use to get Petrosyan to skate.

I just realised Gumennik participated in Tutberidze shows throughout 2023, so he can be excluded due to having a connection with Valieva (if we use the criteria many of you are).

 

[Skating91]

I am Russian, live in Russia myself but I don't want to see Russian athletess compete before the war is over and maybe several years after that. Russia deserves to be banned from OG for decades not only for war but for the support of doping. Also there is no way that all these people are neutral athletes, they are deeply incorporated in the whole mix of government and sport. Mishina\Gallyamov, Kondratyuk, Stepanova\Bukin and others happily visted events with Putin. And now they are neutral and don't support war? I'm not buying that. Also for someone who'd like to say that Russian athletes are suffering for being born in Russia, they aren't suffering in any way, they are paid more by the government than atletes in other countries can dream to see. And participating in OG aren't some basic human rights to begin with.

This post seems to cross into politics, which I'm not interested in like most of the planet. I like to focus on local issues.

There has been doping among Russian athletes, but as a percentage not too dissimilar to any other nationality (WADA release these figures please look it up). Before you accuse RUSADA of being untrustworthy, they are the one's in caught Valieva. They are the one's who suspended Valieva at the Olympics. In addition, in one particular important sporting nation, none of the professional athletes in its domestic leagues (Olympic sports or international sports are minor sports in this country) are party to the WADA code. In fact, their President only a 6 weeks or so ago was at a major fight sitting right by the canvas, cheering on and congratulating afterwards someone who has failed anti-doping tests multiple times. Just how tough are some of these countries on anti-doping? RUSADA looks tough to me they caught and banned their most talented skater in history (for something that scientists aren't sure provides are benefit to athletes and the circumstances are murky), whereas in another country the President is fraternising with someone caught multiple times using steroids (which scientists are sure DO work).

When talking about doping in Russia, much of this is based on Rodchenkov's testimony -- whose claims have been discredited and dismissed by CAS.

Dr. Rodchenkov is not a truthful and credible witness as: (i) his story was found to be mere "hearsay and uncorroborated by any evidence" by two independent CAS Panels in previous proceedings; (ii) sports federations like FIFA or the World have found, each following a thorough independent internal investigation, that they could and would not initiate proceedings against an athlete incriminated by Dr. Rodchenkov; (iii) the Independent Commission(appointed by the WADA in 2015) concluded that Dr. Rodchenkov was indeed "not credible"; (iv) his allegations were made under the threat of deportation from the United States and for his personal gain, including selling his story to the streaming service Netflix and doing so before going to the authorities; (v) he has changed his story repeatedly and whenever it has served him.