No ThreePeat WGM

[Violet Bliss]

I'm not speaking for anybody other than myself, Ms. Violet; I just pointed out that an Olympic Gold Medal universally regarded as a higher achievement that one, two, three or more World Gold Medals. The Olympics is the end-it-all of sports (especially the sport of figure skating).

Well, you said anybody would make such a trade.

Yes, all athletes desire and aspire to earn an OGM as the ultimate prize and recognition of their athletic prowess. But the OGM they treasure is the one they win. The medal is a symbol, the honour is in the winning. The trade you propose cannot happen, unless you mean the impossibility of going back in time to win one.

Would Kurt Browning and Michelle Kwan give up all their titles and medals for an OGM? I don't know but they would probably think twice or just laugh at the idea. A body of great work is highly respected and valued. Quite a few athletes, including figure skaters, without an OGM are better known, more respected and acknowledged than some OG medalists.

 

[Blades of Passion]

"History" may say that picture X was better than picture Y, in hindsight and as tastes change. History does not say that picture X won the Oscar if it did not.

Not just in hindsight. Frequently in the present the results are disagreed with. But in any case, nobody cares, nor remembers, what won the Oscar if it has no lasting impact. That is point. You will find people talking about and celebrating their own choices for best films of a given year. What won the Oscar doesn't matter in such a context, it's just something written on a piece of paper.

Competitive skating is not so entirely subjective as a pure art, of course. There is a technical basis going on that is more definable in terms of agreed upon merit. Jumps and such have value, which presents a certain undeniable framework around which things are judged. You can't win without any jumps. It's thus easier to come to consensus about ranking competitive skating programs than it is a pure art, with many specific elements that can be identified and discussed for their exact worth. This is why it's much easier to say "the judges totally overscored or underscored the skater, and here's why".

And at the 2012 and 2013 World Championships, the consensus is clear (which does not mean *everyone*, as you tried to distort the argument): Chan did not deserve those titles.

Figure skating World Championships are organized by the ISU and decided by ISU rules.

LOL, what is your point? Figure skating is something universal, something that everyone wants to see a championship for. Just because the ISU controls it, that doesn't mean they own skating itself in life. The world figure skating championships is representative of skating in general. The title doesn't mean anything if people don't think you deserved it, no different than in any social structure. If a leader/representative decides to do something that most everyone disagrees with and ends up being a bad decision, that person will henceforth be ignored and overthrown.

Even going by the rules in place from the ISU, judging the 2012 and 2013 World Championships exactly on that metric, it's exactly the same - Chan did not deserve to win. He was overscored in numerous ways, while others were underscored, and these things have been discussed and hashed out in detail for years now.

 

[NanaPat]

And at the 2012 and 2013 World Championships, the consensus is clear (which does not mean *everyone*, as you tried to distort the argument): Chan did not deserve those titles.

The consensus is not actually clear to me. And I don't think it's a distortion to say "everyone" in reply to your original "we all know". I'm part of "we all" and I don't either know or agree, and your saying it a zillion times doesn't make something true.

 

[Blades of Passion]

"We all" means the majority who are informed/agree upon something.

"We all know Trump is an ethically disgusting egomaniac". There's a minority of people out there who disagree with that statement. Etc.

 

[linkintank]

Another person speaking for everybody. Don't you think people treasure honours they worked hard to earn? Patrick also has two Olympic Silver medals besides his Worlds titles, none of which I believe he would want to give up. I'm sure Patrick, and most athletes, would love a genuine Olympic Gold Medal, but not an imaginary one by an imaginary trade. Lysacek has the 2010 OGM and Hanyu the 2014 one and they are theirs to keep and treasure.

There are a couple he didn't deserve too. I remember him skating horribly and somehow he ended up ahead of Denis Ten - who had skated much better. Chan has often been given marks others would not get while skating horribly.

 

[SarahSynchro]

Thankfully, the only opinions who officially matter in deciding the winners of the world championships are that of the judges, not those of random persons on an Internet forum. Of course, if there's doping involved, the WDA has a say as well. That is obviously not the case for PChiddy in any of his three championships. Just like the whole Adelina vs Yuna decibel, we can all debate who we THINK the true champions are until we are blue in the face. But guess what? It means nothing. Adelina is the 2014 OGM. Patrick is the WGM in 2011, 2012, and 2013. End of story.

PS: Violet, you da man, homie.

 

[icedinn]

Patrick Chan deserved his 3 world titles and if he skates cleanly, he'll deserve the OGM.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Just like the whole Adelina vs Yuna decibel, we can all debate who we THINK the true champions are until we are blue in the face. But guess what? It means nothing.

Not true. When you can empirically prove wrong calls were made, it matters a lot. Changes have been made since 2014 as a result.

Maybe on paper the declared winner doesn't change but, again, that doesn't matter. Again I will give the accounting example - if someone adds up their taxes wrong, it may say one thing on a piece of paper, but in the end when that number is discovered to be incorrect, it doesn't simply just remain there. It gets fixed. The record book will show the initial submission that was accounted for (which in this metaphor for figure skating would be the judges at the competition), but ultimately if something is wrong people will make it known.

So you can either be so tunnel-visioned and backwards-thinking as to say that only what is written on a piece of paper the first time matters, or you can look past the surface and at the actual substance.

 

[Mathman]

Anyone would trade a handful of World titles for one Olympic Gold Medal. It is charged with a symbolism, history and impact that the ISU WC doesn't. It sounds quite plausible as an inner-thought.

I believe that Kurt Browning did say once in answer to the question, "How many of your world championships would you give up in exchange for an Olympic gold medal?" "All of them." (even as my English teacher would say, "Is that a sentence"?)

But I bet he wouldn't. No one would give up something that he earned for something that he didn't. I think Violet Bliss has the better side of the argument here.

In a recent interview with Michelle Kwan in Forbes magazine, the interviewer asked, "How do you feel about not winning an Olympic gold medal." Michelle answered, "Bummer," and went on to the next question.

 

[pETEs (Sasha Fan)]

Patrick Chan deserved his 3 world titles and if he skates cleanly, he'll deserve the OGM.

Gotta recognize that is open to debate.

 

[pETEs (Sasha Fan)]

I believe that Kurt Browning did say once in answer to the question, "How many of your world championships would you give up in exchange for an Olympic gold medal?" "All of them." (even as my English teacher would say, "Is that a sentence"?)

But I bet he wouldn't. No one would give up something that he earned for something that he didn't. I think Violet Bliss has the better side of the argument here.

In a recent interview with Michelle Kwan in Forbes magazine, the interviewer asked, "How do you feel about not winning an Olympic gold medal." Michelle answered, "Bummer," and went on to the next question.

How much do you bet? I bet you are contradicting yourself!

 

[Mathman]

^ I probably am.

This is what i think, though. Michelle Kwan won five world championships. This has been done only four times in history. The last time was in 1960.

In contrast, since 1960 there have been 13 Olympic gold medalists. Next year there will be another. Four years later, come rain or shine, another. Then another, just like clockwork. Then another.

Or you can look at it this way. Ask yourself, who do you most admire, Sasha Cohen, Magda Julin or Manfred Schnelldorfer?

 

[pETEs (Sasha Fan)]

^ I probably am.

This is what i think, though. Michelle Kwan won five world championships. This has been done only four times in history. The last time was in 1960.

In contrast, since 1960 there have been 13 Olympic gold medalists. Next year there will be another. Four years later, come rain or shine, another. Then another, just like clockwork. Then another.

Or you can look at it this way. Ask yourself, who do you most admire, Sasha Cohen, Magda Julin or Manfred Schnelldorfer?

^Magda Whoooo??? Your auntie, better yet! Now, seriously; I understand your point of view, however the likes of Sonja Henie, Irina Rodnina and Katarina Witt are remembered first and foremost for being multiple OGM winners than for the number of times they defended their World titles. What I mean is that the cultural impact of an OGM has no match in two, three, four, five or more WGM. Olympics do not come every single year or every two years, so winning it is a rare and special achievement: being ready and prepared to get the Olympic Gold is a highly praised feat! The Olympic Games have an universal flair that ISU Figure Skating Worlds does not.