Raising minimum age for seniors from 15 to 17?

[Alex65]

..... The 3A aren't dominating now because they are 15/16, they are dominating because they are doing higher technical content than anyone ever! Even if Zagitova/Medvedeva/Tuktamysheva were at their 15 yr old state, they wouldn't be beating them. Now we just have to wait and see what happens in the rest of the quad.

What a simple, clear and obvious argument. Bravo!

 

[Good Vibes Only]

This is a controversial topic, but I'll give it a try: I don't think the minimum age is a problem.

Let's look at the men for example. A lot of the top men like Jin, Chen, Hanyu, Uno were all at some point 17/18 year old teenagers who were very rough around the edges, but were outjumping older, more well-rounded men. People complained about it, but I don't remember anyone making it about age and I don't remember anyone saying the minimum age for men should be raised to 20. Instead people were saying this: Don't give them 9 in PCs just to match their TES. Don't reward sloppy quads just because it's a quad. Call their underrotations if there are any. Give proper levels and GOE to non-jump elements. At least for Jin Boyang, this was exactly what judges were actually doing. He was the only one jumping 4 quads, he achieved monstrous TES, but he was quite far from the scores of Chan, Hanyu, Fernandez. In 2016 4CC he had all the technical goods for the win, but the 17 points gap in PCs between him and Chan made the difference, rightfully. This encouraged him to improve his components the following season (even if the progress has stagnated lately for various reasons).

I feel this is the kind of conversation that we should be having about ladies as well rather than discussion about age, especially now in the era when multiple quads and triple axels are a reality. Score them correctly for their respective strenghts and weaknesses, rather than giving them maxed out scores in their first senior season that don't represent their true abilities. This could make the difference to avoid the it-girl of the season effect and encourage them to improve in order to be at the top. And I'm not saying hold them down on purpose either - girls like Kostornaia, who has very strong components, and Kihira, who has wonderful jumping technique, should still dominate, but they also shouldn't worry about being soon pushed down in favour of girls who receive similar scores for weaker qualities.

^^^^THIS!! Thank you for bringing a well thought, reasonable point to this thread!! I 100% agree with you!! I think that the main problem is the scoring of the quads. Rewarding the good ones and not rewarding the sloppy ones, like you said.

 

[beachmouse]

What were the reasons for raising the age to 15 back in 1998 or whenever? This wouldn't be the first time the age limit was raised. And since there is probably zero chance of anything being done before the Olympics in 2022, any change would not affect any skaters who are or who become eligible before then. I'm sure the ISU will take into account what happens between now and then in making their decision.

The 90s were the realm of a lot of young teen and even pre-teen girl sporting phenoms in a number of sports. Diving went to a 14 minimum somewhere around 1992-94 because of Fu Mingxa, who won a world championships on the 10 meter tower at age 12 and there were concerns about child safety and development. Gymnastics, which went to 15 for seniors in 1981 also went to 16 around the same time skating added age minimums. There's actually a good Wikipedia article about age rules and gymnastics where a lot of it can also apply to skating, though skating doesn't have the age falsification controversies that came up in gymnastics in the pre-social media era before every athlete was on Instagram or WeChat

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_requirements_in_gymnastics

 

[KOBOT37]

is this... that 'popularity' people have been telling us about?!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6fw9EkVY34

 

[Mathman]

is this... that 'popularity' people have been telling us about?!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6fw9EkVY34

I do not understand the thrust of this post. (?)

Yes, Carolina Kostner has been a popular skater throughout her career. If you are asking, did I like this program? it was OK. I did not care for the music vey much. She only got third, but she won the LP and overall World Championship a couple of days later.

If you are asking, were the stands full and did the audience enjoy the performance? As far as I could tell from the video the event was fairly well attended and the audience was appreciative.

 

[lzxnl]

What a simple, clear and obvious argument. Bravo!

They've, erm, also gotten quite a lot of backing from their federation. Look at the tantrum thrown when Scherbakova's flat edges were called. Those alone easily amounted to 5-10 points. And it must be said that some of them are receiving a lot of PCS for just skating through the program and even for not-so-great quads.

I don't think the age limit is the main issue. Let's see how the age demographic of the top skaters evolves in the next few years, and see if training techniques can adapt to allow 20 year old women to jump quads too. The judging system is still the number one problem.

 

[KOBOT37]

As far as I could tell from the video the event was fairly well attended and the audience was appreciative.

I think we understand term 'well attended' differently.

I frankly never followed Her or Figure Skating before "soul-less, single-use, boring jumping machines" showed up, but as far as I see, arena was half empty at the world championship.

 

[flanker]

They've, erm, also gotten quite a lot of backing from their federation. Look at the tantrum thrown when Scherbakova's flat edges were called. Those alone easily amounted to 5-10 points. And it must be said that some of them are receiving a lot of PCS for just skating through the program and even for not-so-great quads.

I don't think the age limit is the main issue. Let's see how the age demographic of the top skaters evolves in the next few years, and see if training techniques can adapt to allow 20 year old women to jump quads too. The judging system is still the number one problem.

Just to refresh the memory, the problem was hers and other russian skaters edges were called while others weren't, also the edge calls weren't the only problem with double standards at several GP competitions. And people even here stated that's perfectly fine when some skaters are judged more harshly than the others. So yes, judging is sometimes the problem, but let's not pretend about the way it goes.

 

[KOBOT37]

regarding to popularity :

Cup of China, Kostner 2013

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpkf4yyYhd4

Same competition, Shcherbakova, 2019

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJ7JMMRBhY8

If FS is losing popularity due to 'single use' champions, this two videos sure don't highlight any signs of that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6FXPFPTqmk

Alina in France, 2019.

Just compare attendance to video above and take into account that this is one of the GP events and that was the World championship.

 

[KOBOT37]

trying to find some data about supposed popularity loss,this came along

https://money.cnn.com/2018/02/13/news/figure-skating-popularity-us-olympics-pyeongchang/index.html

apparently, at least in the USA, FS has been losing popularity since (surprised...not) the last time America had title contenders in ladies and 'longevity' of foreign Stars, such as Yuna Kim or Mao Asada didn't help it at all.

 

[Alex65]

They've, erm, also gotten quite a lot of backing from their federation. Look at the tantrum thrown when Scherbakova's flat edges were called. Those alone easily amounted to 5-10 points. And it must be said that some of them are receiving a lot of PCS for just skating through the program and even for not-so-great quads.

I don't think the age limit is the main issue. Let's see how the age demographic of the top skaters evolves in the next few years, and see if training techniques can adapt to allow 20 year old women to jump quads too. The judging system is still the number one problem.

It’s funy for me to observe how your requirements evolve) Two years ago you wanted to see how girls will jump quads 16 years old, now we need to wait until they are 20 years old so that it is legal. What's next?

 

[Edwin]

trying to find some data about supposed popularity loss,this came along

https://money.cnn.com/2018/02/13/news/figure-skating-popularity-us-olympics-pyeongchang/index.html

apparently, at least in the USA, FS has been losing popularity since (surprised...not) the last time America had title contenders in ladies and 'longevity' of foreign Stars, such as Yuna Kim or Mao Asada didn't help it at all.

Well, it is sort of obvious generally people without a specific fan's interest root for athletes from their own country, especially when the broadcasters are very chauvinist, "us" vs "them". Same with Russia at the moment, TAT being the example.

Kostner is interesting in this aspect:

- Was she responsible for this increase in popularity of figure skating, not only in TV coverage and TV ratings, but even more in actual numbers of young children and youths taking up figure skating?

- Was she the top female sports star in Italy during the height of her career? I.e. getting the most coverage, advertisements, glossy front pages, etc.

Do any popular legal adult female figure skaters pursue the center spreads in male magazines? During or after their careers? Was there a beneficial effect to their popularity or their bank accounts? Because this could be a side effect of lengthy careers in the adults.

 

[TallyT]

Do any popular legal adult female figure skaters pursue the center spreads in male magazines?

Err... what???? You are assuming superstars like Yuna or Mao want to do these? Or that appearing in girlie magazines would prove anything to anyone except... I hate to think what. Both these ladies have graced the covers of hundreds of magazines, which is rather more to the point. So is Alina, at least, beginning to do, and for more than just her physical attributes!!!!!

 

[Edwin]

Err... what???? You are assuming superstars like Yuna or Mao want to do these? Or that appearing in girlie magazines would prove anything to anyone except... I hate to think what. Both these ladies have graced the covers of hundreds of magazines, which is rather more to the point. So is Alina, at least, beginning to do, and for more than just her physical attributes!!!!!

I don't want this either, but for athletes on the decline in need of money it is an easy option. There are lots of examples from male and even more female stars in many sports taking to the center spreads, with ranges from slightly erotic up to full frontal.

Just remember the "Dress Kiira Korpii" online game, where the main interest apparently was exactly the opposite.

 

[Harriet]

Err... what???? You are assuming superstars like Yuna or Mao want to do these? Or that appearing in girlie magazines would prove anything to anyone except... I hate to think what. Both these ladies have graced the covers of hundreds of magazines, which is rather more to the point. So is Alina, at least, beginning to do, and for more than just her physical attributes!!!!!

Well, Katarina Witt did pose for Playboy back in the day. But that was in a more sexist and less equal era.

 

[SkateSkates]

I don’t think it’s “mature females” or “one time champions” or really anything to do with women’s figure skating that has been the deciding factor in helping to fill the arenas more between 2012 and now - I think a lot of it is to do with Hanyu and his devoted fans who travel far and wide to see him skate. I’ve also noticed a lot of Shoma fans will travel to competitions in Europe to see him skate live. So while women’s skating might be the most popular discipline in the US and Russia, I think a large portion of the fans with the ability to travel to fill arenas are actually there for the men

This of course might not be true, but based on what I’ve seen it seems like these male superstars are the ones pulling in the most spectators.

 

[Alex65]

I don’t think it’s “mature females” or “one time champions” or really anything to do with women’s figure skating that has been the deciding factor in helping to fill the arenas more between 2012 and now - I think a lot of it is to do with Hanyu and his devoted fans who travel far and wide to see him skate. I’ve also noticed a lot of Shoma fans will travel to competitions in Europe to see him skate live. So while women’s skating might be the most popular discipline in the US and Russia, I think a large portion of the fans with the ability to travel to fill arenas are actually there for the men

This of course might not be true, but based on what I’ve seen it seems like these male superstars are the ones pulling in the most spectators.

I think that adult (possibly) women are more inherent in absolute fanaticism, (with regard to FS). And of course, women are more inclined to choose men as objects of worship. IMO

 

[lzxnl]

It’s funy for me to observe how your requirements evolve) Two years ago you wanted to see how girls will jump quads 16 years old, now we need to wait until they are 20 years old so that it is legal. What's next?

And as we've seen, the 15 year olds jumping quads on a regular basis right now aren't exactly bringing anything else to the table, are pretty overscored overall and the one that jumps the most quads has not performed nearly as well in competition as she did at the start of the year. Kostornaia has also mentioned how she's visibly found it harder to train this season compared to last. It remains to be seen how they will hold up when they return to competition.

 

[sparklestan]

And as we've seen, the 15 year olds jumping quads on a regular basis right now aren't exactly bringing anything else to the table, are pretty overscored overall and the one that jumps the most quads has not performed nearly as well in competition as she did at the start of the year. Kostornaia has also mentioned how she's visibly found it harder to train this season compared to last. It remains to be seen how they will hold up when they return to competition.

Everyone has a right to their opinion, of course, but...
Anna Shcherbakova and Kamila Valieva are both teenagers with quads who have very good musicality, I would say they are bringing something to the table besides quad jumps.

 

[ancientpeas]

Just for a historical perspective in '94 a lot of people were outraged at a very young Michelle Kwan going to the Olympics and i believe it lead to an age rule change.

Also when Tracy Wainman won our nationals back in the early 80s people were upset about it.