Raising minimum age for seniors from 15 to 17?

[Mathman]

The "previous year" ...

Have you switched over to making arguments in favor of raising the age limits?

My point was that if fifteen-year-olds are not allowed to skate, then we (the fans) will lose some exceptional performances. (There are, of course, other considerations than just the fans' enjoyment.)

To me, Zagitova's Don Quixote was a program for all time, both in composition and in execution. (As for backloading, "she made the rule book her servant instead of her master." )

For Medvedeva, I guess I am outvoted about which was her best season. Still, record point totals are not the main thing for me. I'll take this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAKzwC8JCn0

(Unless someone wants to argue, "She's too skinny -- rase the age limit!")

 

[Amei]

It's also a motivation factor, as of now there are less incentives for older skaters to keep up technically with the top if the newcomers get the best marks at the first events immediately mostly due to the technical contents they bring.

I put that on coaching problems - look at Eteri's skaters, her junior skaters have always trained elements to be able to beat what's winning in seniors for the current year. Zagitova/Shcherbakova/Kostornaia were back-loading all of their jumps in juniors for the bonus, but yet even Medvedeva we didn't hear about trying to increase her back-loading until the Olympic season. Now this year Kostornaia was maybe a bit of surprise with the triple axel since she didn't compete at in Juniors, but Team Eteri loves posting their skaters doing quads and Shcherbakova/Trusova were both competing their quads last year, and everyone knew they were going senior this year but you didn't hear anything about people training to learn quads or triple axels till this season when these 3 stepped in a dominated with those elements

That said i wouldn't discount either Tuktamysheva, Medvedeva or Tennell as not competitive. Technically Liza could still compete for the top spots in Russia, Medvedeva is taking a different approach working on those skating skills (which is why i also don't agree the whole argument about you can't improve artistry with age), while Tennell is getting better, she qualified for GPF this season.

I think they are all 3 still in the mix for something, but right now literally all gold medals are won by Eteri skaters.

Disagree on all 3:
Tuktamysheva while she has the ability to do the jumps in practice (her only competition quad was a fall), her team doesn't put together competitive content: at Nationals this year all she did with the quad was replace a more stable triple axel, she doesn't back-load much of anything, she doesn't do much in the way of transitions in/out of jumps.
Tennell, isn't exactly a stand-out technician low number of back-loaded jumps nor is she at the level of natural artistic/elegant movements like a Kostner or Kostornaia nor is she at the performance-ability (which covers up some deficiencies in refinement or gangliness of movements) like a Shcherbakova. And let's face it at the GPF the expectation was if everyone performs to their capability she was gonna finish last, given that I can't wrap my head around saying someone is in the mix for something.
Medvedeva - she's still struggling technically in competitions with her current layout, and she's got a lot of girls to beat to even get to a major competition.

 

[Mathman]

https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/vaytsekhovskayas-interview-with-irina-slutskaya.105280/
https://rsport.ria.ru/20190209/1550615378.html

Thanks for the links to the Slutskaia interview. Fascinating.

A little off-topic for this thread, but this part caught my eye.

Not long ago I started speaking to Maria Butyrskaya....according to [some fans spreading rumors, during our competing days] we were not far from ruining each other’s blades...

Remember that story when at the end of 1999 someone burnt Maria Butyrskaya’s car? I was called to the police. I was sitting in the office with that huge dude, who not only explained how and when I did it, but that I will be jailed starting tomorrow.

Also,

Interviewer: "You were the first female skater to land a 3lz3loop - the combo that Zagitova won in Korea with.

IS: I was also the first to land a 3s3loop. (But) not because I was trying for some incredible difficulty... In 1998 Olympics I was doing a 3T3T combo, but it was always a tough jump for me. I would speed up through the whole ice, would jump the 3T from ¼ of the rink, because the second 3T was only possible if I had enough speed. Landing the combos with a loop was easier.

On coaching:

Interviewer: (So) sitting in the balcony and shouting `Work, you lazy cow!’ is not your thing?"

IS: "That’s what the coaches are for. No, I’m kidding, but if I send my daughter to work with a specialist it means I trust that specialist."

 

[Mathman]

Nathan Chen wasn't an artistic skater in his early teens ... His artistic development came later, from 18 on.

Have you ever seen a better interpretation of Peter and the Wolf? Lower the age for men to ten.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaLzoohy_FU

 

[flanker]

Have you switched over to making arguments in favor of raising the age limits?

My point was that if fifteen-year-olds are not allowed to skate, then we (the fans) will lose some exceptional performances. (There are, of course, other considerations than just the fans' enjoyment.)

To me, Zagitova's Don Quixote was a program for all time, both in composition and in execution. (As for backloading, "she made the rule book her servant instead of her master." )

For Medvedeva, I guess I am outvoted about which was her best season. Still, record point totals are not the main thing for me. I'll take this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAKzwC8JCn0

(Unless someone wants to argue, "She's too skinny -- rase the age limit!")

Nope

Just have read too many times how skating and the results would have been different, I I've laid some arguments that skater, who is succesful at 15 can be succesful at 16 as well

Both Alina's programs fromt he olympic season were masterpieces that will be hardly topped, though I'm a big fan of her POTO as well

Medvedeva - as for her dominance, 2016/17 season was definitely completely hers. As for programs, I'm fan of her 2015/16 free program and the short program from the following season.

 

[Jeanie19]

Medvedeva - as for her dominance, 2016/17 season was definitely completely hers. As for programs, I'm fan of her 2015/16 free program and the short program from the following season.

:agree:
I think River Flows in you should have been her Olympic short program. Her doing the jump rope and hopscotch are so fun to watch.

 

[Tolstoj]

I put that on coaching problems - look at Eteri's skaters, her junior skaters have always trained elements to be able to beat what's winning in seniors for the current year. Zagitova/Shcherbakova/Kostornaia were back-loading all of their jumps in juniors for the bonus, but yet even Medvedeva we didn't hear about trying to increase her back-loading until the Olympic season. Now this year Kostornaia was maybe a bit of surprise with the triple axel since she didn't compete at in Juniors, but Team Eteri loves posting their skaters doing quads and Shcherbakova/Trusova were both competing their quads last year, and everyone knew they were going senior this year but you didn't hear anything about people training to learn quads or triple axels till this season when these 3 stepped in a dominated with those elements




Disagree on all 3:
Tuktamysheva while she has the ability to do the jumps in practice (her only competition quad was a fall), her team doesn't put together competitive content: at Nationals this year all she did with the quad was replace a more stable triple axel, she doesn't back-load much of anything, she doesn't do much in the way of transitions in/out of jumps.
Tennell, isn't exactly a stand-out technician low number of back-loaded jumps nor is she at the level of natural artistic/elegant movements like a Kostner or Kostornaia nor is she at the performance-ability (which covers up some deficiencies in refinement or gangliness of movements) like a Shcherbakova. And let's face it at the GPF the expectation was if everyone performs to their capability she was gonna finish last, given that I can't wrap my head around saying someone is in the mix for something.
Medvedeva - she's still struggling technically in competitions with her current layout, and she's got a lot of girls to beat to even get to a major competition.

You know, each skater has different goals, it's not just about winning everything, having the most difficult jumps, speed is not all that matters, timing is more important: to show up ready when you have a real chance.

Mishin is fully aware that you can't push a 23 years old woman exactly like a 15 years old girl, like Sambo70 does, it's not gonna happen: the body is very different, the technique also very different, so they're more playing a long term strategy, being in the mix for many seasons but not pushing it that hard especially on health, and get recognition for what you achieve over the years.

Eteri's skaters tend to have a deadline: 1-2 seasons in juniors + 1-2 seasons in seniors, they'll try to win everything in that timeframe then it all depends on who's coming next, some generations are better than others, in the grand scheme of things they improve and push the sport forward on the athletic side, but it's not always next generation better than the last, because they pick from different groups, and because they are human not robots.

I think Elizaveta now just needs to work on quality, she doesn't need to learn new jumps, she just need to make those she has now more consistent and make them look nicer, and to look more confident. Her current layout is competitive enough to match or even surpass Kostornaya technically if you add a second axel and land that quad toe.

But i noticed some of the nice work on the other jumps has regressed a little last season, like in previous years Liza used to really showcase her 3lutz with a beautiful landing position, now it's often scratchy, that needs some work again, the 3t out of the 3-3 or 2a-3t also is not as nice as it used to be. She also maybe needs also to do some more runthru, just to not look exhausted at the end of the free skate.

Medvedeva and Tennell are also working in the long term, even though they are more working on getting the triples clean, and the second mark rather than triple axel or quads.

The biggest improvement for Bradie i think was to create her own style, her SP was beautiful this season, huge step forward from Cinderella of 2 years ago. Medvedeva also you can see huge improvements on the posture and flow, though she needs to work on other things that are regressing a little like the Flying camel spin (that was already regressing in 2018 now it's even more noticeable)

 

[Edwin]

A long career in average mediocrity vs a short career in outstanding victory? What would an athlete prefer?

 

[KOBOT37]

Apart of trying to shelter kids for mythical health problems what exactly is raising age limit going to achieve?

 

[KOBOT37]

A long career in average mediocrity vs a short career in outstanding victory? What would an athlete prefer?

Most people here stubbornly trying not to see that 'short career' is the direct result of the OGM.

 

[KOBOT37]

I put that on coaching problems - look at Eteri's skaters, her junior skaters have always trained elements to be able to beat what's winning in seniors for the current year. Zagitova/Shcherbakova/Kostornaia were back-loading all of their jumps in juniors for the bonus, but yet even Medvedeva we didn't hear about trying to increase her back-loading until the Olympic season. Now this year Kostornaia was maybe a bit of surprise with the triple axel since she didn't compete at in Juniors, but Team Eteri loves posting their skaters doing quads and Shcherbakova/Trusova were both competing their quads last year, and everyone knew they were going senior this year but you didn't hear anything about people training to learn quads or triple axels till this season when these 3 stepped in a dominated with those elements

I, in the name of Eteri, apologize that instead of training Zagitova to win every trophy where is to win in the FS, she didn't train her to land quads. After all, preventing domination of these 15 years old kids and being competitive as long as possible is the goal every figure skater should strive for, instead they went for winning trophies then and where, HOW DARE THEY!!!

P.S I don't know what you heard or seen, but at the last world Championship, 2 people,including one Eteri's Student landed Quad/3A and at least 2 more could land it or were training to land it. I recommend you to follow the FS news more closely, you seem to be missing things out.

 

[el henry]

I do not agree with the hypothesis, based only on a data set of a few years of skating that I can see, that ladies skaters have only a “few years” of skating.

Any sport that says quick hurry it up do everything between 15 and 17 and then retire? IMO, that’s not a “sport” and nothing I want to watch. If NBA players are forced to wait until they’re 19 to make more money than a figure skater can dream of, I refuse to believe ladies skaters are such hothouse flowers that they can’t wait another year too. Quite the contrary

Any skater who is great at 15 can be great at 16, at 17, at 18. It is no more “unfair” to make them wait than to make the would-be NBA superstar wait. That is what in my own little skating world, I would like to see:agree:

 

[KOBOT37]

I do not agree with the hypothesis, based only on a data set of a few years of skating that I can see, that ladies skaters have only a “few years” of skating.

Any sport that says quick hurry it up do everything between 15 and 17 and then retire? IMO, that’s not a “sport” and nothing I want to watch. If NBA players are forced to wait until they’re 19 to make more money than a figure skater can dream of, I refuse to believe ladies skaters are such hothouse flowers that they can’t wait another year too. Quite the contrary

Any skater who is great at 15 can be great at 16, at 17, at 18. It is no more “unfair” to make them wait than to make the would-be NBA superstar wait. That is what in my own little skating world, I would like to see:agree:

That is lovely.

except that rule isn't there to keep would-be superstars OUT(and definitely not there to keep best basketball players out), it's to avoid would be busts getting IN.

Yeah, they probably can wait, real question is why on the earth we should make them wait? So 1% of people who watch FS world championships can enjoy "Emotional mature skating" skating? Sorry, nah.

For me, as an ex athlete, mere premise of keeping the best athlete in the world in juniors sounds like an utter absurd. The best should be competing in the Seniors,for the tittle of world champion, end of the story.

 

[Mathman]

Apart of trying to shelter kids for mythical health problems what exactly is raising age limit going to achieve?

Maybe we should have a thread on that question.

 

[Mathman]

If NBA players are forced to wait until they’re 19 to make more money than a figure skater can dream of...

The NBA is an interesting example. (Of what, I am not sure.)

As I recall the old rule was not about age per se but about finishing college. Wilt Chamberlain left college after his junior year, but was not allowed to sign with an NBA team until the next year, when his class graduated. (He spent the intervening year making money with the Harlem Globetrotters.)

Then they decided to allow "hardship cases" -- if you could plead extreme poverty, they would let you go on to the NBA early. (I believe that Kobe Bryant got in via that route at age 18 -- he never went to college at all -- even though his family was actually quite well-to-do.) Nowadays, College is just a one-and-done revolving door. Top players play college ball for their freshman year, then jump to the pros.)

The old rule about finishing college was promoted as being beneficial to the players (everyone is better off with an education, even a basketball player), and also as a point of prestige: Basketball players are smarter than those numbskull baseball and hockey players who never went to school. But the real reason was so that the NBA could use college programs as their "minor leagues" to teach youngsters how to play without incurring the expense of organizing developmental programs for prospects and projects. Gradually the age/school thing disintegrated when faced with the argument, "If I am good enough to play in the NBA then I have a right to make a living at my chosen profession -- what does college have to do with it? I'll see you either on the basketball court or in the courts of law." (In fact, Spencer Hawood did take them to court.)

By the way, I just looked it up and learned that the current rule of 19 was established in 2005 as a compromise between the players union (which wanted 18) and the NBA Commissioner's office (which was holding out for 20.) At this very moment this is under review, with almost everyone willing to go back to 18.

Also -- that the main argument for making young players go to school was that poor kids with no talent but with stars in their eyes about getting rich in the NBA, would neglect their education in order to concentrate on bouncing a ball -- they would be washed up at 19, still dumb as a post, and without any employment prospects either within sports or otherwise.

 

[Tolstoj]

A long career in average mediocrity vs a short career in outstanding victory? What would an athlete prefer?

I'm not saying one is necessarily better than the other (even though in the long term i don't think one season skaters are great for the sport) but rather that there is a reason for both to exist.

And personally i don't see not medalling at every single event as average mediocrity, it's okay to have highs and lows, it's actually very important to accept that: you cannot stay unbeatable forever, but retiring as of result of that is the wrong lesson in my opinion.

 

[Mathman]

A long career in average mediocrity vs a short career in outstanding victory? What would an athlete prefer?

It wouldn't necessarily have to come down to either/or. Carolina Kostner's career was not exactly "mediocre." She is five-time European champion, a world champion, and an Olympic medalist. Irina Slutskaia won two world championships and two Olympic medals over a long career., plus 7 Europeans and 4 Grand Prix Finals.

Michelle Kwan won 5 world championships and two Olympic medals. I do not think that the question you ask is entirely rhetorical. Would an athlete rather have Kwan's record and impact on the sport (and money), or Tara Lipinski's, who shot to the top, won the world championship and the Olympic gold medal, and that was both the beginning and the end of her short but meteoric career? I can see an argument for either choice.

 

[el henry]

The NBA is an interesting example. (Of what, I am not sure.)

whole post

I didn't even know the NBA limit was 19 until I read an article last week on "one and dones", I thought it was still 18.

And now I am going to veer totally off topic since you mentioned Wilt the Stilt. My uncle played high school ball against Wilt. In the Philadelphia Public School system in 1953, my 6'5" uncle was considered pretty darn tall and made a center on the HS basketball team. Of course, Wilt also played center in the same league. Oops Family legend has it that Wilt the sophomore had no fear of being outplayed by the more experienced member of the Henry clan. And was not.

I agree that the reasoning for 18 in the NBA and NFL has been the college education. I'm not sure what the reasoning is for NHL and MLB, which have less of a "college education" mythos. My only point being that these young lady skaters are every bit as tough as basketball players, and could handle the wait, whatever the reason.

 

[flanker]

I would say that NBA (and other collective sports) is not good for comparison. Lot of teams, leagues all around the world, exponentially more opportunities to play, even if you are not chosen into the national team (and yet, e.g. in ice hockey, there are still plenty of players waiting for their time). Figure skaters are in a different position. You can't sit on the bench with hope that coach will send you into the match this time or play developmental league. Several competitions of the Russian Cup/other country equivalent or some lower international competitions are just not enough for a skater who would be waiting till 18/19 only for that..

 

[TallyT]

A long career in average mediocrity vs a short career in outstanding victory? What would an athlete prefer?

This is just a blatant furphy, and you know it. Those are not only not the only options, there's also the short career in mediocrity or as a good/great but not never quite being THE one. Long careers at the absolute top are pretty much an archaism, true - how many, say in this whole century so far, have managed it? - but we don't know that it won't possible in the future, whether or not the age stays the same.

Problem is, your question is pointlessly rhetorical, you can't ask the actual people involved, any of them, and get the truth. That's not to say they wouldn't try to be honest, but you can't ask them while they are on the rise because few if any of them honestly think they might be the flash (however golden) in the pan. And you can't ask them after they finish and retire because there's no point, they can't go back and change it, and hindsight is rarely that clearsighted.

If - and it's a big if - evidence does in the future show that letting prepubescents take over the discipline is a bad outcome for them personally and for the future of the sport (which, and I have to be callous, is really more to the point for the rule makes and breakers), then it will need to be addressed. If - another equally big if - the evidence shows it doesn't harm them physically or psychologically and benefits the sport's popularity and bottom line, then well and good, it will be left as is. If evidence shows we can't have both, the ISU will have to make one of their {cough} sober and far-sighted rulings.