Senior Ladies Need To Up The Age Requirement

[el henry]

If health is a concern, it makes more sense to look at the elements that are dangerous, such as, yes, quads. Because they do the same things in juniors and train for juniors just as much as they do for seniors. They start at 4 or 5 years of age, so by the time they are 15, they have a decade of doing what other children don’t do and can’t do.

The statistical sample on the skaters will never be representative in that respect, they are simply an exceptions of exceptions, it will be looking at the cloud of outliers.

Any sort of scientifically based cut off is going to be 19-20 yo, aligned with the end of growth. But at that point most people should be half way through university.

I have already addressed why I don't adhere to the "they will train anyway" argument, although I realize not everyone is hanging on my every word

But I do not see a path to agreement, and that is OK, people don't need to agree. I only jump in when I see arguments about motivations or inconsistencies. It's only inconsistent if you already think 15 year olds should skate senior.

It may be incorrect, in an opposing view, but not inconsistent. That was my only point.

 

[lariko]

I’m still confused. Savchenko said that she agrees with the age limit. There is already an age limit. She doesn’t say anything about wanting to raise it further, though she does express concerns about skaters ending up like Lipinski. What’s wrong with that?

Aljona never says that no teenagers should be allowed in seniors. I’m not sure why you’re projecting that onto her.

She does sound disparaging of the skating of the younger skaters vs the older ones, comparing 13-14 vs 20-30 age range. She specifically does not mention the age of contention, the 15.

She calls Trusova a junior — which makes me wonder when they actually recorded this interview & what the context of it is. Honestly, it sounds more like it was recorded last year when Trusova was 14 and jumping quads in juniors.

She says, she supports age limit, she actually never states what that age limit is.

 

[jenm]

IMHO, we don't need to raise the age limit. We need judges score GOEs and PCS properly/correctly. High tech does not equate to high skating and performance levels.
I don't see anything wrong with young girls competing in seniors because yes, you get someone like Trusova who is a strong jumper and fast spinner but skates like a junior. But on the other hand, you get skaters like Alëna and Rika who have the skating skills and performance ability of a senior, not to mention strong jumps as well. The responsibility is really on the scoring to hit it right and give rewards to the right skaters (as it should do for like always).

I don't mind Sasha winning with tech because she deserves to be credited as a strong athlete. My only quarrel is with her PCS starting at 67. That's it. If she jumps 4 quads and the others didn't, as a junior or senior, she should win. I don't mind any of the ladies winning if they bring it on the day. Just as long the calls are correct and scores are right. Really, the problem is on the judges and TC.

 

[lariko]

I have already addressed why I don't adhere to the "they will train anyway" argument, although I realize not everyone is hanging on my every word

But I do not see a path to agreement, and that is OK, people don't need to agree. I only jump in when I see arguments about motivations or inconsistencies. It's only inconsistent if you already think 15 year olds should skate senior.

It may be incorrect, in an opposing view, but not inconsistent. That was my only point.

I don’t think all juniors should advance to seniors at 15; just that the current system allows them to if they are exceptional athletes — and that they are allowed under the current rules to remain in juniors till the reminder of the growing period and/or if the move to seniors is undesired.

For me, it is easier to logically follow the arguments that so few athletes do the quads consistently at all, with trauma becoming significantly more likely vs triples, so no more quads for anyone, because it would protect everyone effectively.

 

[lzxnl]

I agree with PCS scoring being a joke. The current range of PCS scores is far too narrow for PCS to be much of an advantage. Kostornaia and Trusova are about 3 points apart in PCS in the short and 5 points in the free. 8 points total, despite the fact that one has far more developed skating skills and performance qualities than the other. Are we going to value half the artistry of the sport at the value of a triple axel? Or the difference between replacing a double with a quad? One quad, right now, is the difference between Kostornaia and Trusova's PCS, across both programs. Seems a little unfair.

 

[Manitou]

Why 17? What difference does two years make? The brain isn't fully developed at 17 either. There are also lots of girls that hit their growth spurt after 17. If you want to make the age requirement 17, then why not make it 25 when the brain and body are fully developed. Your logic is very flawed. What about men, pairs, and ice dance?

Nowadays people don’t mature even until 35. Just look around. Let’s make it 35!

To be serious, 3A should be a competitive requirement now if you want to count, ready or not. Many of the current top skaters won’t adjust to it, but for the incoming generation it’s going to be a standard.
Things change...

I remember discussions if things were going too far when Gabriela Andersen-Schiess almost died on the first women marathon in 1984 Olympics. And look at the women marathon now.

 

[flanker]

IMHO, we don't need to raise the age limit. We need judges score GOEs and PCS properly/correctly. High tech does not equate to high skating and performance levels.
I don't see anything wrong with young girls competing in seniors because yes, you get someone like Trusova who is a strong jumper and fast spinner but skates like a junior. But on the other hand, you get skaters like Alëna and Rika who have the skating skills and performance ability of a senior, not to mention strong jumps as well. The responsibility is really on the scoring to hit it right and give rewards to the right skaters (as it should do for like always).

I don't mind Sasha winning with tech because she deserves to be credited as a strong athlete. My only quarrel is with her PCS starting at 67. That's it. If she jumps 4 quads and the others didn't, as a junior or senior, she should win. I don't mind any of the ladies winning if they bring it on the day. Just as long the calls are correct and scores are right. Really, the problem is on the judges and TC.

Sasha's PCS didn't start at 67, but at 65 in Bratislava.

About PCS, I'm getting the impression that for some spectators having high PCS means skating to Celine Dion, because "that's artistry".

 

[Joekaz]

Seems like Figure Skating will always be a Slutskaya vs Kwan debate that goes back and forth depending on which style the rules favor at the time.

 

[jenm]

Sasha's PCS didn't start at 67, but at 65 in Bratislava.

About PCS, I'm getting the impression that for some spectators having high PCS means skating to Celine Dion, because "that's artistry".

I meant the grand prix/major comp.
And what a way to derail the point. There's a huge difference between style and mastery. Don't mistake amateurish work as "style". It isn't.
All genres are welcome. It all depends on their performance abilities and mastery of every component.

 

[flanker]

I meant the grand prix/major comp.
And what a way to derail the point. There's a huge difference between style and mastery. Don't mistake amateurish work as "style". It isn't.
All genres are welcome. It all depends on their performance abilities and mastery of every component.

There was a point?

 

[Elucidus]

From fans perspective there is peculiar situation now:

1) on one hand - judging by last comps it's clear that more older ladies skaters aren't capable to compete on equal with younger generation - even the most top one seniors. Especially with strict judging. They just have too much weight to rotate jumps consistently - therefore more calls, falls, bad landings etc. It can be quite frustrating for established fanbase of recent stars and can look as unfair and/or inbalanced.
2) on other hand - raising the age - we are banning themselves from such beautiful performances Kostornaia has showed. Moreover, we are banning themselves from much more cleaner, stronger and exciting competitions - where at least several athletes can show their peak of perfect technical and artistic performance combined. I am even willing to state that ladies aren't able to show their maximum and achieve perfection later than 15-16 - unless all you care about is artistry and SS - and not quality of jumps and clean skates. In other words - just imagine all three recent GP events without 15-16 y.o. skaters there - with exactly the same skaters and the same performances there were before - but only what left with older skaters. In what kind of events they would turn to, how many people would want to see exactly what was shown by them? Would they be interested to see only 1-2 decent skates from 12 participants and usual splatfest from others? How that would affect fs popularity? Just answer these questions to yourself honestly - and you will know the answer.

Question is - what is more important from fans point of view? Quite a conundrum..

 

[campbellka]

What is funny is that younger girls winning is nothing new, at all.

Sonja Henie born April 1912.
Competed at the 1924 Olympics age 11.
First World Title in 1927 age 14
First Olympic Title 1928 age 15

The only thing that is different now is that the current age limit is actually HIGHER.

Same thing with Ekaterina Gordeeva/Sergei Grinkov. Competed at Junior Worlds when Katia was 14 and won. Competed at Senior Worlds the next year (age 15) and won. Then won in 1987. Then won the gold medal in Calgary. Then won Worlds the next year and the next. Then won gold in Lillehammer.

 

[Mathman]

Going by the current season so far, to make it fair I think we will have to divide ladies skating into two separate leagues, and not allow them to compete against each other. Fifteen-year-olds and the B league. Kostornaia just chewed up old-lady Zagitova by 20 points.

 

[lariko]

Going by the current season so far, to make it fair I think we will have to divide ladies skating into two separate leagues, and not allow them to compete against each other. Fifteen-year-olds and the B league. Kostornaia just chewed up old-lady Zagitova by 20 points.

Kostornaia passed into the wizened crone territory, turning 16 in August

 

[Mathman]

Kostornaia passed into the wizened crone territory, turning 16 in August

She's done.

 

[skylark]

Going by the current season so far, to make it fair I think we will have to divide ladies skating into two separate leagues, and not allow them to compete against each other. Fifteen-year-olds and the B league. Kostornaia just chewed up old-lady Zagitova by 20 points.

 

[Mishaminion]

No outcry about Kostornaia (16) and raising the age limit? Come to think of it where was this thread when Shcherbakova (15) won Skate America?

This thread appeared immediately after Trusova's incredible SC FS...

Hmmm

 

[Globetrotter]

I agree with PCS scoring being a joke. The current range of PCS scores is far too narrow for PCS to be much of an advantage. Kostornaia and Trusova are about 3 points apart in PCS in the short and 5 points in the free. 8 points total, despite the fact that one has far more developed skating skills and performance qualities than the other. Are we going to value half the artistry of the sport at the value of a triple axel? Or the difference between replacing a double with a quad? One quad, right now, is the difference between Kostornaia and Trusova's PCS, across both programs. Seems a little unfair.

The big issue for me is that the current PCS scoring somehow scores everyone into an average range +/- 0.5. All the components are about in the same range even though to our naked eye, certain skaters have vastly different scoring abilities in the 5 components. In addition, the automatic boost for being a big name or top skater while juniors whose PCS get pressed down as they have not yet earned their stripes - to me, this is terrible judging practice. Alyona, Anna and Sasha are three very good and interesting cases. If we look at TR, all of them are very good, with Alyona having slightly more meaningful TR. In terms of SS, Anna is considerably weaker but Sasha IMO has pretty good SS in terms of the ability to gain speed and effective use of her knees, ankles and good balance (although not as smooth edges) while Alyona's strength in SS is flow, edges, turns but not quite knowing how to use power. Overall, I think they are about equal in SS. Anna probably is the most natural and engaging performer while Alyona is better at performing more sophisticated choreo but Sasha is less comfortable compared to her team mates in the performance aspect. Overall, Alyona is the most all rounded in the PCS with no real deficiencies in her components and basic skating, so she should receive higher overall scores. As her team mates also have their different strengths in the PCS, they should not be very much lower. In the SP, assuming all goes clean, I will have Alyona overall about 34.5 to 35, Sasha at about 32 to 32.5 and Anna about 32.5 to 33. As they all get to showcase more in the FS, based on their individual GPs, I will score Anna, Sasha and Alyona about 68, 67 and 72.0 respectively.

As the 3 of them seem to always be improving, I suspect their scores will progress upwards a lot quicker.

 

[Edwin]

No outcry about Kostornaia (16) and raising the age limit? Come to think of it where was this thread when Shcherbakova (15) won Skate America?

This thread appeared immediately after Trusova's incredible SC FS...

Hmmm

Indeed, the outcry over Trusova being able to perform quad quads and setting world records seems hypocritical by all accounts.

Clash of generations, #TeamTutberidzeForProgress against the world of conservatism.

 

[Mathman]

#TeamTutberidzeForProgress against the world of conservatism.

Tutbernidze fans against the world. The world against Tutbernidze. To tell the truth, this fruitless fan war is killing my interest in figure skating this year.