Should skaters receive "clean program" bonuses? | Page 5 | Golden Skate

Should skaters receive "clean program" bonuses?

Skaters want clean programs too. But audience members aren’t entitled to see clean programs.

Are you going to be satisfied if every skater does only doubles in their programs and level 1 spins and footwork to avoid falls? You can always go watch exhibitions or ice dance if falls bother you so much.

I actually remember being in a job interview in my teens when I mentioned I’m a figure skater. And the interviewer was like “Oh, I like figure skating! But I don’t get how they could fall after practicing so much.” And I was a bit affronted but rather sassily retorted, “Well, basketball players miss free throws, football players fumble the ball… what’s your favourite sport?” She said tennis - I said “Some of those pro tennis players make millions of dollars, and practice daily. And yet they still make thousands of unforced errors every year.” I think she got the point… and somehow I still got the job lol.
LOL... i often use a similar analogy with my students....

I tell them, you know, don't be afraid, we don't want mistakes but with piano, if you make a mistake, it won't hurt, you are not a figure skater falling on the ice... it could be worse ;)
 
It depends.
Imagine that a skater makes a mistake at the beginning of the program and knows that he/she is not getting the clean bonus. Then he/she will be, quite contrary, encouraged to do the most difficult jumps to make it up.
It’s very interesting when skaters make a big mistake they almost never increase the difficulty of the later jumps. They relentlessly stick to the plan even if it means leaving out combos they could do. Like a skater plans a 3/3 combo and falls on the first jump. Lots of times they never try to make it up. Or if they pop a quad. They don’t go for another quad.
 
LOL... i often use a similar analogy with my students....

I tell them, you know, don't be afraid, we don't want mistakes but with piano, if you make a mistake, it won't hurt...
Ny trombone teacher put it this way. Blow through the horn! If you make a mistake, make it a big one!
It’s very interesting when skaters make a big mistake they almost never increase the difficulty of the later jumps. They relentlessly stick to the plan...
Plan your skate, skate your plan. If you get off kilter at the beginning, nine times out of ten you will only make matters worse if you start. improvising to make up for lost opportunity. ;)
 
It’s very interesting when skaters make a big mistake they almost never increase the difficulty of the later jumps. They relentlessly stick to the plan even if it means leaving out combos they could do. Like a skater plans a 3/3 combo and falls on the first jump. Lots of times they never try to make it up. Or if they pop a quad. They don’t go for another quad.
Most skaters don't train to incorporate harder difficulty later as it is physically (and mentally) more taxing. Some skaters YOLO and try to make up for an error, but usually it ends up backfiring and after one bad experience of backfiring, they learn not to. In the case of someone like Zagitova who can do a 3-3-3 in the last 10 seconds of her program if she wanted to, it was okay for to make up the 3-3 later (plus she knew she needed it to beat Medvedeva in the 2018 Olympics).

In retrospect, I'm sure a lot of skaters would make up a jump they omitted in a combo do to error or forgetfulness, or because they think they've done enough to win anyways with the omission ((Plushenko in the 2010 Olympics for example with his double loop or his 3S in the 2004 GPF where he lost to Sandhu). I'm sure Fernandez wishes he had done a 3Z or 3T instead of a zayaked 3S at the end of his OWG2014 free program.
 
from what I heard in the interviews, not every skater can recalculate the program while recovering from a fall to max out the remaining tech base (those who are great at it often are upheld for this very quality), catching up to music and skating at 20 clicks per hour. Some of them train and run substitute programs for higher probability fails, even multiple ones. This way they switch track. But this is a luxury not all of them can afford, either physically or mentally.
 
[Some skaters] train and run substitute programs for higher probability fails, even multiple ones. This way they switch track.
NMchelle Kwan used to train two versions of her long programs. If she hit her opening triple toe/triple toe, then her last element would be a split limp. If she missed the triple/triple, she substituted an extra solo triple toe at the end to bring up her jump count.
 
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NMchelle Kwan used to train two versions of her long programs. If she hit her opening triple toe/triple toe, then her last element would be a split limp. If she missed the triple/triple, she substituted an extra solo triple toe at the end to bring up her jump count.
Yes, like that. She is certainly not the only one
 
And this is even more difficult in the SP. A breathtaking example this season was Lena Kostyleva at the GP Final (..russian juniors...) She popped her big combination (3A-3T) at the beginning and took a fall. So she declared that a failed 2A and hammered only seconds later a beautiful 3A-3T on the ice, for almost 14 points. That lady has nerves of steel...
 
^ That's very impressive when a skater is able to keep her wits abpiut her like that. It often goes the other way, piling up one mistake after another, or losing track of Zayakk counts, or abandoning the choreography in an attempt to make up a jump.
 
It’s very interesting when skaters make a big mistake they almost never increase the difficulty of the later jumps. They relentlessly stick to the plan even if it means leaving out combos they could do. Like a skater plans a 3/3 combo and falls on the first jump. Lots of times they never try to make it up. Or if they pop a quad. They don’t go for another quad.
It's not exactly so. Especially in the short program, it's almost a norm that a skater who ruins the combo at the beginning later adds an extra jump to the other individual jump. It's way rarer when a skater forgets to do so.
It's more complicated in the free program because the program is longer and skaters get more tired towards the end; however, they mostly do jump the last 3Lz as a combination if they have already fallen on a scheduled 3Lz combo. It's very cost;y not to do so (the second individual 3Lz is worth 0 points because of the Zayak rule).
When there was only 1 quad per program, skaters used to replace another jumping pass with a quad that they popped in the first attempt. In a modern-day multi-quad program though, there is no reason and no place to do so because, mostly, the next jumping pass already has a scheduled quad.

If the supposed "clean program bonus" would encourage skaters to schedule less difficult programs even though they would be able to do more difficult elements, then there could be situations i.e. when a skater with a fall who has already jumped 3Lz replaces i.e. 3S with 4Lz - even if he falls, he can still hope for better point value than 3S would bring.
Of course, it means that alternative program planning might be necessary :)
 
Hmmm - sorry, but I don't think skaters think about receiving bonuses later in life. I would imagine that the hours of practice and the foregoing of parts of their young lives would make them want that bonus NOW. As for whether they should get points for skating clean programs, it still bothers me greatly to see a skater fall several times and still win. Instead of a bonus for skating clean, how about making falls have more of a penalty?
 
It's more complicated in the free program because the program is longer and skaters get more tired towards the end; however, they mostly do jump the last 3Lz as a combination if they have already fallen on a scheduled 3Lz combo. It's very cost;y not to do so (the second individual 3Lz is worth 0 points because of the Zayak rule).
In that scenario, it wouldn't be a Zayak. The second individual 3Lz would get a +REP, which would reduce the base value to 70% of the original BV. Still costly, but not as costly as it would be if it was a Zayak.
 
Hmmm - sorry, but I don't think skaters think about receiving bonuses later in life. I would imagine that the hours of practice and the foregoing of parts of their young lives would make them want that bonus NOW.
Oh, I don't know, I don't know. Sure we want it all and we want it now. That's human nature.

Still, I can imagine a skater in retirement, looking back on his career and saying to himself, "I I didn't win an Olympic gold medal;, I didn't win a world champ[ionship... but for one bright shining moment at the Nepala Trophy in 2012 I was king of the universe!"
 
In that scenario, it wouldn't be a Zayak. The second individual 3Lz would get a +REP, which would reduce the base value to 70% of the original BV. Still costly, but not as costly as it would be if it was a Zayak.
I think that one of the problems is that when a skater makes an early mistake they don't always know how the technical panel will score the element. This is one more thing to juggle on the fly. Was that a downgrade or an under-rotation, did that intended combo fill a combo-box or was it just scored as a single with no second jump when I slipped off the tale-off edge of the second jump?

The latest rules are better, I think, but we used to see skaters leaving the ice slapping themselves, "why did I tack on that stupid double toe, negating the whole element? ... Or, why didn't I tack on an extra double toe when I a had the chance... Or......
 
Especially in the short program, it's almost a norm that a skater who ruins the combo at the beginning later adds an extra jump to the other individual jump. It's way rarer when a skater forgets to do so.
Yes, in senior short programs (and lower levels, but not junior), it's very common for skaters to have a "plan B" to try the combination as the first non-axel jump and if they don't manage to include a second jump there it's a wise plan to add a combination, usually double toe, on the second non-axel jump.

Especially since the rules stopped requiring the solo jump to be preceded by steps or other skating movements. When that was still a requirement, to make best use of this plan B the skater would need to plan some preceding steps/moves before both non-axel jumps, or else they risked taking a smaller deduction for the lack of steps before the originally planned combination. Although if the reason they couldn't do the combination was because they fell, they were already going to take the maximum deduction on that element anyway.

In junior short programs, the solo jump has a required takeoff. They can't just add a combination to the only jump with the required takeoff, because then it becomes "not according to requirements" and takes a -5 GOE reduction for that reason, while the non-required takeoff without a combo will still be called as the combo and also get the -5 reduction.

The only way a skater could take advantage of the "add a combo to the solo jump" strategy in juniors would be to plan a triple of the required takeoff as the combination and a double of the same takeoff as the solo jump later (or vice versa for junior women). For most skaters that's a bad strategy to try to maximize intended base value.

What gets trickier is trying to add a combination to an axel-type jump in the short program. A solo axel jump is required in all short programs. For seniors (and for junior men), either double or triple axel can fulfill that requirement. So it is possible to plan (initially, or as plan B) a 3A combination and a solo 2A, or as in the example cited above to go to a plan B that treats a popped axel attempt as the required solo (as if it were planned as double) and to add a 3A combination later as the combo jump.

But what skaters need to be aware of is that if they fail to include a combo on an earlier jump, they must not add one to the only axel in the program. As with the specified takeoff of the junior solo jump, that will get them "not according to requirements" deductions on two different elements and no credit for the second jump in the improvised combo, instead of just the loss of points on the jump they missed.

It's always best to have specific backup plans for each potential error on the first jump or two in the SP. Trying to wing it without planning in advance is always risky.

In the free skate there are more potential variations of where things can go wrong and in most cases where they can be made up.

So yes, it's easier to lose track of all the potential options. The main things that the skater needs to keep in mind are that there must be an axel of some kind somewhere in the program, there can be a maximum of three combos, no jump can count more than twice, and that any triple or quad that's repeated needs to be in combination at least one of the two times in order to earn full credit for both.

As mentioned, with the current rules, getting the +REP designation for a repeated triple/quad with neither in combo is a partial loss of points but not as severe as other potential rule violations.


If the supposed "clean program bonus" would encourage skaters to schedule less difficult programs even though they would be able to do more difficult elements, then there could be situations i.e. when a skater with a fall who has already jumped 3Lz replaces i.e. 3S with 4Lz - even if he falls, he can still hope for better point value than 3S would bring.
Only if he has a good chance of actually rotating that 4Lz attempt.

If it ends up being downgraded (as is more likely later in the program when the skater is tired, and from an approach it hadn't been trained for), then fall or no fall it will end up being worth less than a clean 3S.

Of course, it means that alternative program planning might be necessary :)
Certainly adding such a bonus would change skaters' strategies both for initial program layout and for potential backup plans.
 
Hmmm - sorry, but I don't think skaters think about receiving bonuses later in life. I would imagine that the hours of practice and the foregoing of parts of their young lives would make them want that bonus NOW. As for whether they should get points for skating clean programs, it still bothers me greatly to see a skater fall several times and still win. Instead of a bonus for skating clean, how about making falls have more of a penalty?
This was me 2 pages ago!!!

And this is coming from my perspective as a fan of a skater who had competitions with falls and still medal. It's just easier for normal people to see "oh they fell a lot, that's why they're lower in the standings" than getting deep into PCS of older skaters and rotations being counted and such.

And IMO great skaters and competitors will still rise to the top if they compete with that rule in mind - they will prioritize the jumps they can land without falls and probably focus on skating quality to increase their scores. And great skating skills will look great on ice anyway regardless of falls or not.
 
I think is a double blade sword because ok can aim to challenge skaters to do cleaner elements and continuous improvement but also adds more pressure to the skater because if they failed in a jump and wasn’t enough clean they would frustrate also a bonus score is additional to score and don’t fulfill fair judging principles . remember have a grade of execution, a value base of any elements and if will add a bonus for cleaner elements = more pressure (more self pressure, more coach pressure , other pressure) . Some of the basic principles is motivate to go beyond ,promotes a healthy sport environment , attracts to more people to adopt figure skating.

Also with a bonus are creating a bias to judges, if you know that a skater do all the elements perfect on every championship. Ok are humans and in the mind it creates a predisposition (almost instinctively ) to give bonus because already you know in other championships that skater it did a cleaner jump or other elements .
 
Totally agree that a skater looking back might be proud of an accomplishment years ago but a current skater looking forward to "looking back" is unrealistic. And yes - a bonus for anything brings that human element in again that we all love to castigate. I still think that no matter how good a skater is and how outstanding their reputation is - a fall is a fall and should be treated as such. How many skaters out there deliberately throw a triple or quad whatever knowing they can't land it but if they rotate it to a certain point will get points. Still have a problem with ithis.
 
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