Should the ISU expand the field for the Grand Prix final?

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Hopefully this is understood as a general comment and should remain in The Edge. It is not about the upcoming GPs but in the future.

Since interest in the GPs has increased over the years, I was thinking it might be wise to allow 10 Finalists instead of 6 or at least 8 so that we can consider who are the TOP TEN (or eight) seem to be heading toward the Olys/Worlds.

As it stands with 6 Finalists, it doesn't open our eyes on skaters who do not make the Finals. Let's give them a chance to show their stuff.

Examples of the Underload of Six Finalists

Ladies this year seem to have 4 contestants already in the Finals, plus a returning Oly medalist The Men's events has so many super skaters that to limit the finals to only 6 is not even fair. The usual front runners in Dance are there but there are other teams worth looking at again. I already see 6 teams in the Finals, why not 2 or more?

Too late to do anything about now, but maybe in the future

 

[PolymerBob]

A warm-up group is usually 6 skaters. Having all skaters in a discipline in one group doesn't really make sense. 10 or 12 would be a good number.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

A warm-up group is usually 6 skaters. Having all skaters in a discipline in one group doesn't really make sense. 10 or 12 would be a good number.

I didn't know that the Finals are based on the final group to skate. It therefore makes it that much easier to predict even before the preliminary events. I still suggest that up to 10 finalists should skate in two groups, and not this season but in future.

However, one group of six Dance Teams or six Pairs Teams do make a crowded warm-up. Bound to be accidents. They have to break that up even with six finalists.

 

[Mathman]

I didn't know that the Finals are based on the final group to skate.

I think the original idea was that each country would put on its competition, and then all the winners would get together for the final showdown. It was called the "Champions series final." (It took Cinquanta a couple of years to secure the rights to the name "Grand Prix" because that is also used in other sports, such as auto racing.)

Anyway, the problem with a meeting of the five champions (six after they added the Russian event in 1996-97) was that one person might win more than one championship.

For instance, in the first year, 1995-96, Michelle Kwan won Skate America, Skate Canada and the German event. The other two winners were Josee Chouinard in France and Lu Chen at NHK.

Since they only had three champions, thay had to round out the field with second place winners. Hanae Yokaya of Japan won silver in Canda and NHK, and Maria Butyrskaya won silver in Germany. (Chen also won two silvers.) So that made five "champions."

Then they went to bronze medalists. Slutskaya and Markova each had a bronze and a fourth, so they tied ahead of Bobek (bronze and sixth).

So there were seven ladies in the finals that year, in order of finish, Kwan, Slutskaya, Chouinard, Chen, Yokoya, Markova, Butyrskaya. There were six in the men's final, 4 pairs and 4 dance teams.

By the way, over the years the Grand Prix final has been pretty much a grand slam for Russia. Russian skaters have won a total of 24 gold medals at the GP finals, compared to 6 for Canada, 6 for China, 5 for the USA (Jeremy Abbott! ), and 3 for Japan.

Anyway, on topic, I don't see any reason they couldn't double the field to 12 in singles. The only drawbacks I can see are, (1) making the GP finals would become a less prestigious accomplishment, (2) it would cost more, and (3) it might steal some of the thunder from wolrds -- if all of the best skaters had already duked it out for the crown at the GP finals, would we need a world championship afterward?

 

[chuckm]

If the top 12 in each discipline competed in the 2008-2009 GPF, several of the competitors (in italics) would not even have competed at Worlds:

LADIES:
Yu-Na Kim
Joannie Rochette
Mao Asada
Carolina Kostner
Yukari Nakano
Miki Ando
Fumie Suguri
Rachael Flatt
Alissa Czisny
Laura Lepisto
Caroline Zhang
Ashley Wagner

MEN
Patrick Chan
Takahiko Kozuka
Johnny Weir
Brian Joubert
Jeremy Abbott
Thomas Verner
Alban Preaubert
Evan Lysacek
Yannick Ponsero
Steven Carriere
Kevin Reynolds
Ryan Bradley

PAIRS
Savchenko/Szolkowy
Zhang/Zhang
Kavaguti/Smirnov
Pang/Tong
Volosozhar/Morozov
Mukhortova/Trankov
McLaughlin/Brubaker
Dube/Davison
Inoue/Baldwin
Duhamel/Buntin
Brodeur/Mattatall
Vise/Trent

DANCE
Delobel/Schoenfelder
Domnina/Shabalin
Faiella/Scali
Khokhlova/Novitski
Davis/White
Belbin/Agosto
Pechalat/Bourzat
Crone/Poirier
Kerr/Kerr
Samuelson/Bates
Cappellini/Lanotte
Gorshkova/Butikov

 

[gkelly]

If the top 12 in each discipline competed in the 2008-2009 GPF, several of the competitors (in italics) would not even have competed at Worlds:

That happens sometimes even with only six competitors at the GPF. Off the top of my head, Tonia Kwiatkowski in 1997 and Irina Slutskaya in 1999.

I'm not counting situations like Mao Asada in 2006 where the reason for not being at Worlds was the difference in age limits between championships and GP.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I really do not think it will take away prestige from Worlds. The Worlds has the whole history of Figure Skating to make it THE most important event. However, having a Finals as we do this season, doesn't really give the GPF a more important event than when more skaters are involved from various countries. And there is always the possibility that one of the lesser but good skaters will rise to the occasion in the Finals. I think it will make more money for the ISU but I'm not sure of that.

And Lubliana(sp) could host the bigger event. :thumbsup: and that city could make some money.

 

[chuckm]

Given the ISU's drive to save money (and that meant limiting the number of JGP events), the possibility of making the GPF final larger is nil. The ISU has to pay for transportation, lodging and meals of the GPF competitors, and there is NO way that the ISU would be willing to double those costs.

 

[Tinymavy15]

yes, having more skaters there would make it more interesting, but then the GPF would more or less be a mini-worlds. I don't think the skaters, or nessecarily the viewers would want that.

 

[nubka]

yes, having more skaters there would make it more interesting, but then the GPF would more or less be a mini-worlds. I don't think the skaters, or nessecarily the viewers would want that.

ITA! :yes:

 

[enlight78]

I think it would be nice to have two worlds. Golf has four major championships a year. Tennis does to. But figure skating really only has one. So skater are push to have that one amazing skate at the end of the season then they have to wait til next year. I think it puts too mush pressure on the skaters. The GPF would be better then Worlds since it has a more open qualification not squarly based on nationality or squarley based on two competions(last yr worlds and recent nationals) that are 8+ months apart

 

[oleada]

no, I wouldn't want it to be expanded. The GPF is supposed to be about the very best, and that's what I want to see. It's not Worlds.

Someone mentioned tennis, and I think the GPF compares more to the Master Series final in the men or the Year End Championships in the women's rather than a Grand Slam. Only 8 players who accumulated the most points get to compete there.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

no, I wouldn't want it to be expanded. The GPF is supposed to be about the very best, and that's what I want to see. It's not Worlds.

With 12 skaters or teams in each division competing in six events and producing a Finals of Six based on some points are not necessarily the very best, any more than 10 competitors

A skater may have a lucky day ISebestyen) but not necessarily be the best alll round skater, and an alternate (Sandhu) may go on to win.

I'm not convinced I am watching the best of the best at the GPF. I can think of others who are in the 'best' category who will not be in the Finals. Adding two more to the list will enhance the Final, imo, not detract from it.

(Tennis and Golf basically ignore the Olys )

 

[PolymerBob]

yes, having more skaters there would make it more interesting, but then the GPF would more or less be a mini-worlds. I don't think the skaters, or nessecarily the viewers would want that.

Maybe the answer is there are too many skaters at Worlds and not enough at the Grand Prix Final.

Why do excellent skaters sit on their couches and watch the skater from India score less than 20 points in the short?

 

[Mathman]

Why do excellent skaters sit on their couches and watch the skater from India score less than 20 points in the short?

Because the skater from India is the champion of her nation. Every member of the ISU has the right to send its champion to the big show. It's one of the rights of membership.

But about expanding the GP final to 12, ChuckM posted the only point that matters in post #8. It costs money. The ISU doesn't have any. The last set of rules changes for Worlds tried to save money by limiting the number of skaters that make the LP. etc., for the same reason -- not to mention cutting the number of judges down from 12 to 9.

 

[janetfan]

Because the skater from India is the champion of her nation. Every member of the ISU has the right to send its champion to the big show. It's one of the rights of membership.

But about expanding the GP final to 12, ChuckM posted the only point that matters in post #8. It costs money. The ISU doesn't have any. The last set of rules changes for Worlds tried to save money by limiting the number of skaters that make the LP. etc., for the same reason -- not to mention cutting the number of judges down from 12 to 9.

What are ISU rankings for? I know what Tennis rankings are for - they are used to basically determine the field at the Grand Slam tournaments. In a given year the US could have 6 men at a Grand slam. This year at the French open there must have been 10 or more Russian Ladies in the singles draw. Why? Because the Grand Slams are the major tennis events of the season and why would I or many others bother to watch them if they left out many of the best players. It is stupid the way ISU limits = punishes the stronger federations. This year I could care less, even at the Olympics about seeing anything under the top 12 skaters. Why? Because many of them are bad. USA could have atleast 6-8 Ladies this year and the quality of skating would be greatly improved. Why might Caroline, Mirai , Ashley, Kimmie, Alissa, etc, etc, etc, not be skating at the Olympics? It makes no sense to me to have so many skaters that could not make a US Jr team skating while so many better skaters are home. That is partially why TV ratings in USA are so low. Why do we want to watch, in some cases skaters below our average junior skater's level? It is silly and it is wrong. It goes against the Olympic ideal and against the basic rules of competition.
I don't care so much about GP because it is what it is - a money maker for ISU and a way to keep skating in the spotlight. The format. along with the GP champions are not that meaningful or important. But to run a competition and call it a World Championship or an Olympic competiton shoud be about inviting the best and anything less deprives the skaters and fans.
hrumpf

 

[Mathman]

What are ISU rankings for?

The short answer is "nothing."

The longer answer is, the purpose of the ISU rankings is for the ISU to prod skaters into doing Four Continents and European B events, which otherwise the elite skaters would prefer to skip.

The way to get to the top of the leader board (the #1 lady in the world is Carolina Kostner and the #1 man in the world is Tomas Verner) is not to win the world championship but to grab extra points at these lesser events. If you are obedient to the ISU and support these lesser events (which otherwise would have to fold for lack of interest), then the ISU gives you a cash prize at the end of the season ($45,000 for top ranking in singles, etc.)

The reason that tennis and golf are different from figure skating is that in those sports the fundamental entity is the indivdual player. Tiger Woods is a member of the PGA. (He shot a 74 today )

In contrast, Yu-na Kim is not member of the ISU. The Korean Skating Federation is a member of the ISU. Each national federation has one vote. Each national federation sends its champion to Worlds, plus an extra skater or two if the federation (not the skater) has earned extra spots.

Well, they could do it differently -- but not without a massive reorganization of that very conservation organization, the ISU.

This year I could care less, even at the Olympics about seeing anything under the top 12 skaters. Why? Because many of them are bad....That is partially why TV ratings in USA are so low. Why do we want to watch, in some cases skaters below our average junior skater's level? It is silly and it is wrong.

Don't worry, the skaters below the top 12 will not be shown on TV.

 

[gold12345]

I would like to see 8 at the GPF. I think 12 would be way too many and would ruin the prestige of qualifying for the Final, but 6 isn't enough. Sometimes it comes down to luck who gets that 6th and final spot, and I think it would just make it more fair to expand it to 8.

The longer answer is, the purpose of the ISU rankings is for the ISU to prod skaters into doing Four Continents and European B events, which otherwise the elite skaters would prefer to skip.

I don't know, Four Continents is becoming a pretty big deal now. If Europeans is a big deal, why shouldn't the other continents have a similar type event? There's too much emphasis on Worlds, Worlds, Worlds. It's nice that the skaters can compete in a Grand Prix series and a 4CC rather than having their entire international season based on just Worlds.

 

[janetfan]

The short answer is "nothing."

Don't worry, the skaters below the top 12 will not be shown on TV.

OK, whether you meant it or not - you called my bluff
And I would watch more if they showed it

 

[Mathman]

I don't know, Four Continents is becoming a pretty big deal now.

True. Maybe this shows that the plan of the ISU worked.