Split thread - USFS announces 2008-2009 Team Envelopes

[KeineZeite]

One of the criterias for Team A is top 10 finish at the previous Worlds, which Bebe accomplished. I don't think it matters whether a skater is in Team A or Team B as long as it's Team A or Team B. I could be wrong but there is just enough competitions to go around for everyone is Team A & Team B in the GP circuit. I think the Team A skaters get more skating related expense money from USFS.

Well, I try to understand the criteria.
But I am feeling a bit awkward, especially about Ladies' selection.:frown2:
Liang as team A while Zhang and Flat as team B

I am afraid none of Ladies Team A will be able to make it at the LA World next year.
Maybe, Wagner, Flat or Zhang will...
Now, it is a really transition phaze of US Ladies, isn't it?

 

[waxel]

Seems silly. Zhang won Junior Worlds, medaled in 2 Sr. GPs and made the GP final --- and still sits in Team B. Yes, I understand the "top 10 finish at Worlds" criteria. But again, seems silly when Kimmie and Bebe basically tanked the whole season.

Chalk it up to more bizarre "logic" from USFS.

 

[ToePick]

As much as you may or may not like the way it unfolded, what the USFS has done is use established criteria to sort out who falls where in their funding envelopes, which do not directly influence competition assignments.

Placement in the envelopes is purely objective (minus the unwritten 2-envelope rule, apparently, and even that seems to be applied evenly across the board, making it basically objective), so there is really no room for crying foul, or misplaced logic, or whatever else on the part of the USFS. I'd actually have a bigger problem if they changed the criteria every year to "fit" with whom they wanted on what team.

If you have a beef here, it is with the criteria (which, again, did not change this year), not the way it is used. *shrugs* Maybe there should be consideration for "age ineligible skaters who would have otherwise competed at worlds," but the fact of the matter is: Mirai is National Champ, and Bebe and Kimmie went to Worlds and finished in the Top 10 (which is no small feat, if you really think about it), thus qualifying for Team A. Caroline and Rachael were appropriately placed in Team B based on their performances this season.

Who are the subjectively better skaters is really the topic of another conversation.

Just my two cents.

 

[momjudi]

Could someone refresh my memory of how much the skaters in each envelope could expect to receive from the federation this year?

 

[PolymerBob]

Could someone refresh my memory of how much the skaters in each envelope could expect to receive from the federation this year?

In January of '06, Katy Taylor won the Four Continents. She got $15,000 from the ISU for winning. That also put her in the A envelope and got her another $15,000 from the USFSA. Now that was 2 seasons ago, before the sponsors bailed. I'm not sure what the awards are now.

 

[champs]

I am afraid none of Ladies Team A will be able to make it at the LA World next year.
Maybe, Wagner, Flat or Zhang will...

Maybe you didn't see Nagasu listed in Team A. She is a contender, at least as much as Flatt and Zhang, for the Worlds spots.

Seems silly. Zhang won Junior Worlds,...

It's Flatt, not Zhang, who won the Junior Worlds this season.

 

[chuckm]

Zhang won Junior Worlds 2007.

 

[McWicked]

YAY!!! Kimmie on team A!!! I wish Rachel was on that team too though...

 

[sillylionlove]

Thank you mathman for clearing that up for me. I appreciate it. :thumbsup:

 

[Sylvia]

Ok maybe I am a little confused here........but isn't the envelopes just for how much funding they get...not what competitions or how many competitions they get? Or I am totally off base here???? :scratch:

Correct, envelope levels are not correlated with Grand Prix (or any other) assignments.

Yes, I think that's right. But the thread has meandered off into the separate but somewhat related question of who will be assigned in the Grand Prix.

Perhaps we could discuss the separate issue of Grand Prix selection in this thread at http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21404
or start a new one?

As much as you may or may not like the way it unfolded, what the USFS has done is use established criteria to sort out who falls where in their funding envelopes, which do not directly influence competition assignments.

Placement in the envelopes is purely objective (minus the unwritten 2-envelope rule, apparently, and even that seems to be applied evenly across the board, making it basically objective), so there is really no room for crying foul, or misplaced logic, or whatever else on the part of the USFS. I'd actually have a bigger problem if they changed the criteria every year to "fit" with whom they wanted on what team.

If you have a beef here, it is with the criteria (which, again, did not change this year), not the way it is used. *shrugs* Maybe there should be consideration for "age ineligible skaters who would have otherwise competed at worlds," but the fact of the matter is: Mirai is National Champ, and Bebe and Kimmie went to Worlds and finished in the Top 10 (which is no small feat, if you really think about it), thus qualifying for Team A. Caroline and Rachael were appropriately placed in Team B based on their performances this season.

Who are the subjectively better skaters is really the topic of another conversation.

Just my two cents.

Good post .

Here's what I posted in another forum on this topic:

There used to be a LOT more "wiggle room" (subjectivity) built into the envelope system and there is a LOT more objectivity now (criteria based on placements at specific competitions).

However, it can be argued that the quality/high level of skating at Junior Worlds this year should have been rewarded more in considering who qualifies for Team A. One current problem is that the envelope criteria are approved before the start of each season and therefore cannot take into account any unusual developments that might occur, such as several underage skaters qualifying but not being able to go to 2008 Worlds, and a few skaters being assigned to spring developmental internationals who placed lower in their 2008 Nationals event than others who were not sent because of their previous international experience.

There is no perfect system for identifying who deserves what level of funding from year to year, but I do feel that there is room to improve on certain parts of the current system and I hope it will happen.

Here's a suggestion: If a skater in Team B fulfills THREE different criteria of the current 6 listed for Team B, then they could be considered for Team A. If this were the case, then Flatt, Rippon, Zhang, and Samuelson/Bates could all qualify for Team A.

 

[R.D.]

Kinda surprised to see a few things, notably Bebe in Team A??? Was it due to the Top 10 finish at worlds? Anyway, her fans will say that it's time she gets recognized for her efforts. But I say, enjoy it now because I don't think she'll be going back...

And Meissner still in team A as well. Oh well, there's hope, I suppose she's not COMPLETELY done yet...

What's up with USFS/IN now calling her by her full name (Kimberly)?? Is there something I'm missing here? They aren't referring to Bebe as Beatrisa, so it doesn't sound like a "formal" thing...At worlds I think the announcer still called her Kimmie. I think she is still called Kimmie in newspaper articles as well. Can someone shed some light on this??

 

[Sylvia]

Meissner and Liang qualified for A because they placed in the top 10 at 2008 Worlds, one of the envelope criteria for A.

 

[dwiggin3]

Everyone in Team A for the ladies surprises me. Agree with your last sentence.

I'm surprised too. Really odd selections everywhere....

Flatt and Wagner left off A team.....
Katriana in C - I would have put her in B
Kim and Brent in B - should be in A
Melissa Bulanhaggi in Reserve - I'd have her in B or C.
Melissa and Denis in C - I'd but them in B.

Very surprising to me to see Armin Mahbanoozadeh, whom I've never heard of, be placed on Team B while Ryan Bradley is placed on Team C. Though I love Bebe, seeing her on Team A is pretty shocking considering her overall season. Kimmie was not impressive either, but at least she did have high finishes at Skate America and Trophee Eric Bompard to somewhat justify her placement. Team A should be the 3 Jr. World medalists, IMO.

Armin is from No. VA and actually, very good and promising. He had a bad nationals.

Keegan Messing from AK is in C which is good for him

I was surprised Emily was so far down. I can see her in B but not C

 

[Sylvia]

Again, here's the link to the criteria for A, B, C & Reserve:
http://www.usfigureskating.org/Shell.asp?cat=2&sid=35400
Each criteria level was followed, so there really were no surprises or "odd selections."

ETA: It's a different situation if you disagree with the actual criteria and, on that topic, you can refer to my post #43 on the previous page.

 

[R.D.]

Meissner and Liang qualified for A because they placed in the top 10 at 2008 Worlds, one of the envelope criteria for A.

Thanks for clarifying- I figured because both of them didn't exactly have a stellar season. :think:

 

[Tonichelle]

I think it's great that Keegan is in an envelope, I know there were concerns about the cost of figure skating for juniors (and seniors)

top that off with his airfare costs (it ain't cheap to fly from Anchorage!) and I just can't imagine how they do it!

 

[champs]

Zhang won Junior Worlds 2007.

If seasons before 2007-08 had any relevance in his/her thinking, waxel would not have had any problem swallowing the fact that Meissner was put in Team A since she won Worlds. (And the criteria are based on the achievement in 2007-08 unless we are talking about skaters who did not participate in competitions this season)

I was going along the context and merely pointed out possible confusion.

 

[AwesomeIce]

I think it is interesting how many people are up in arms about the Ladies teams just because the three baby ballerinas didn't all make it to team A. Sorry, but the rules are the rules, and they really haven't changed much in the last few years. Kimmie despite not having a great season, did finish in the top 10 at Worlds and rightfully earned a spot in team A. Bebe, yes she is an inconsistant skater but again, she met the criteria for team A.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Perhaps we could discuss the separate issue of Grand Prix selection in this thread at http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21404
or start a new one?

1. I agree with Sylvia. Hopefully one of the Mods could separate the two trains of throught for separate postings.

2. Re: Envelopes - I think the system used by the USFS maybe faulty, and that's what brings on the results we have. I do not think the USFS is being unfair with the skaters, but some corrective action for next year would be welcomed. This should be a cut and dried matter.

3. Re:GP Assignments - Do they not come around a month or two after the Envelopes? It would be in the interest of the fans on the official method used to fill up these Matrices. If someone knows how the official selections are drawn, please post. Just adding: we are aware of what the host country can do whether we like it or not.

On one other summertime matter. Will there be another Barbecue? and Will we know why? I think this was to explain how the envelope and GP assignments were chosen.

Joe

 

[Tonichelle]

alright, I'm doing my best to split the USFSA Envelope and Grand Prix picks discussion as requested by a few members. hang tight!