What is your subjective and personal definition of art in figure skating?

[Magill]

One point which always keeps coming back in the art-and-sport vs sport-solely discussions is about competition and point winning somehow disqualifying figure skating as an art which I simply don't understand. Obviously, there are also art competitions with people participating to "gain points" and win. Some pieces of art have been even created specifically for the purpose of being submitted to such competitions. The same pieces of art happen to be exhibited in museums later. The same music played in piano competitions is played in concerts. So, when they play Chopin's music at a world-renowned Chopin Competition, to "gain points", hopefully "win" it and obtain an award, but also to gain more elusive career points and develop it further, does this music suddenly stop being art? What is performed is not a performance art anymore? So what is it? When being a laureate of a prestigious art competition is mentioned as an achievement in bios of many artists, should we read it as a proof they are not in fact artists at all because they performed for points?
Just asking

 

[gkelly]

My thoughts:

The SPORT of figure skating is organized for the purpose of demonstrating mastery of figure skating techniques and choosing who was best, second best, overall in each competition.

Part of the demonstration of technical mastery is shown by moving in aesthetically pleasing ways and in time with music, if possible reflecting the emotional content of the music.

Not all competitors will skate in ways that are pleasing to watch, and not all competitors will skate in ways that match and enhance the music. They're rewarded if they do, but it is possible to meet the requirements of competition and even to place relatively well at some levels if those aspects are the skater's weakest points.

It is also possible for skaters who are interested in creating an intentional coherent aesthetic/emotional experience for viewers to transcend the limitations of competition and create performances that could be considered "art" within the competitive context, but that is rare and not a required part of the sport.

The primary purpose of SHOW skating is to entertain audiences using skating skills/techniques and other performing arts skills and techniques.
The emotional context of a skating show performance may be just "This is fun!" or it might be more nuanced and/or serious. There are different ways to entertain audiences, and there is room to debate whether it is meaningful to make a distinction between art vs. entertainment. I'm inclined to be inclusive and say that if the goal of a performance is just to entertain and it succeeds in doing so, that is a valid artistic expression.

Some forms of skating shows (what we call professional Ice Theatre, and also some shows headlined by big competitive stars that aspire to do more than just showcase skills) tend to aim for performances that aim to create serious nuanced "art" in the same way that stage dance performances do. In fact, these groups often collaborate with choreographers from the world of artistic stage dance (ballet, modern/contemporary dance, etc.). And choreographers who started out as competitive skaters themselves may develop into artistic choreographers for the ice.

To me, the purpose of these shows is to create art. We can have different opinions about which ones are more artistic than others, which speak to us individually or not, same as we might have different opinions about which kinds of dance or other physical performance genres speak to us most. E.g., I would include circus performances, especially those using human movement, e.g., clowning, daredevil acrobatics, as comparable to dance in this way, although the specific emotions emphasized might be different.

I think these types of skating shows demonstrate that the techniques of figure skating can be used for the creation of art just as other types of movement performances off the ice do.

So if we ask "Is figure skating art?" my answer would be "It can be."

But in a competitive context, I think that any art that exists is an extra quality added to the main purpose of demonstrating technical mastery.

 

[TallyT]

I'm not sure the question is "is figure skating art" (at least not so much for competitive skating, the very best show pieces might be as validly called art as any dance or other performance, and dancers have praised them as such) as "is there art in competitive skating" and I would definitely say yes, to a greater or lesser degree depending on the skater.

And audiences appear to value it, as much as the athletics. In the tributes to Shoma I've seen in the last few days both here and on social media, his medals and his quads/technical/athletic skills have been noted but far more have spoken of the way his artistry and emotion made them feel, and he's not the first by any means.

The same music played in piano competitions is played in concerts.

And then there are the competitions for composing, though of course they don't have points as such, possibly the judging is closer to the 6.0 system?

 

[4everchan]

Music competitions are already quite controversial among musicians. It's more like a necessary passage to get yourself known. Some musicians love doing them, some hate them. Some musicians follow them, some avoid them completely. You would be surprised : some do indeed have charts with points, but that's not the case of all. Some go with "votes" from jury members or ordinal ranking. There is no definite and absolute way to score a musician that would be the same for all music competition. It's not like there is an ISU or an IMU (international Music Union) that would meet every year and decide what musicians ought to do. Music competitions are a business of course and musicians do it because you got to enter the business if you want to make money and continue your dream. Feel free to compare figure skating competitions to music competitions if you wish to do so but they have very little in common in the way they are organized and in their purpose.

I enjoyed @gkelly 's post about their vision of when figure skating is more sport and when it can be artistic. I agree with many of the points made, especially the nuance between performing arts and entertainment. Though the musicians entering music competitions are often highly skilled performers and very educated individual, the context of music competition, TO ME, resemble more entertainment than art. What is great about these competitions, as a necessary passage, is that it can reveal wonderful artists (not always) to the world. Those artists can then have some credentials and followers, marketing tools, and opportunities to further develop themselves and their art and then, we get the benefit of these competitions. At the same time, it's not the only path for an artist to have a career. The subjectivity in the judging is often remarked (do not equate this to figure skating subjective judging... in a music competition, at times, pretty much anyone could win it... it depends really on the jury's preference and subjective perception... in figure skating, we may argue a bit but the top skaters would remain on top, maybe in a slightly different order, and the lower ranked skaters would remain at the bottom too... there are enough objective points to mark them that way).

So it's not because figure skating and music share the concept of competing that we can draw conclusions about that. Apples and oranges type of competitions.

 

[4everchan]

The same music played in piano competitions is played in concerts.

Yes and no. A lot of music is seldom played in music competitions. Repertoire chosen in music competitions aim to impress, whether it is made to demonstrate virtuosity or intimate touch, there is an aim to convince the jury. Music played in concerts, is chosen by the performer or the conductor without trying to fit in such an agenda. For instance, a musician could decide to select pieces with a theme, or establish a progression etc.
Also, it's not about what is played at both concerts and music competitions but HOW it is played. Different animals

 

[Anna K.]

the second reason is because the OP is interested in everyone's own subjective definition. I saw this as an invitation for everyone to write a comment or two... separately... instead of another opportunity to yet again, debate.

@Anna K. is the OP... She can clarify what her intentions were if I am mistaken.

Strictly speaking, the statement that figure skating is a sport was slightly off-topic in this thread since I asked for the impressions specifically of art in figure skating (if you see in it any). However, I find no harm if it is expressed as a general subjective definition... in a comment or two.

The point is you are profiling the entire sport on your personal experience.

This is what this thread is supposed to be about: the personal experience. Please, respect that!

 

[4everchan]

Strictly speaking, the statement that figure skating is a sport was slightly off-topic in this thread since I asked for the impressions specifically of art in figure skating (if you see in it any). However, I find no harm if it is expressed as a general subjective definition... in a comment or two.

Fair enough ! I think that's what I was trying to do with my first post in the thread, mentioning that story telling, costumes and music bring an artistic value to the sport I guess my thoughts were provocative Happy to leave it there. Thanks for the thread : I always appreciate when OPs are interested in other people's opinion in a 'let's hear what you think versus debate" type of threads.

 

[Mathematician]

This is what this thread is supposed to be about: the personal experience. Please, respect that!

Precisely so any absolute assertions based on that go against the thread's purpose

 

[Mathman]

Precisely so any absolute assertions based on that go against the thread's purpose

Peace, friend. As Ana K. says in the original post, the title says it all. 4everchan gave his view on the subject, other possters gave theirs. Thanks to one and all.

Me? I go with the classical Quadrivium of the Liberal Arts : Arithmetic, Geometry, Astronomy and Music. Which is not to say that other endeavors (pottery for instance, or figure skating) can't lift the spirit and soothe a savage breast.

 

[Mathman]

(O)ne could surely veil a problematic absolute statement in subjectivity, in that it is my opinion 1+1=3.

Bertarand Russell, the prolific early twentieth century logician and philospoher of mathematics, was once lecturing on why logicians adopt the convetion that in a statement of the form P =>Q, if P is false then theimplication P=>Q is automatically true whether Q is true or false. An audience member objected: "Are you saying that you can start with 1=2 and produce a logically sound argument that you are the Pope?"

Russell replied, "The Pope and I are two. Therefore we are one."

To me, that story tickles my funny bone, buoys my spirits, and speaks to the age-old question, "Is there wit in mathematics?" Others probably find it stupid and boring.

OK.

 

[Mathematician]

Peace, friend. As Ana K. says in the original post, the title says it all. 4everchan gave his view on the subject, other possters gave theirs. Thanks to one and all.

The difference is in presentation. I can say my personal disposition towards the addition of two sole constituents (1+1) gives me the intuitive feeling that it should result in a trinity (1+1=3). Versus just saying, it is my opinion that 1+1 DOES equal 3... Very different.

Me? I go with the classical Quadrivium of the Liberal Arts : Arithmetic, Geometry, Astronomy and Music.

Art had a different meaning then. Where does painting and writing lie then?

 

[TallyT]

Me? I go with the classical Quadrivium of the Liberal Arts : Arithmetic, Geometry, Astronomy and Music.

'Euclid alone has looked on Beauty bare...'

One thing also to remember is that, before the Rise of the Artist as, well, 'The Artist' most of 'em were jobbing workers creating very much to order for rich customers and patrons: "you want a nice piece of famous Water Music, to ride down the river to? By Friday?" (joke unblushingly stolen from I think Victor Borge) or doing endless portraits of the Venetian or Tudor gentry for their hallways...

 

[Mathman]

Art had a different meaning then. Where does painting and writing lie then?

I have to confess that of the five historical European Fine Arts that were cannonized during the Itaian Renaissance, I know nothing about painting, architacture or sculpture. I have read a few poems. I like listening to music, especially classical music from tthe Haydn/Mozart era.

So I have to lay low on these topics. (But I did write a paper once comparing geometric motifs in Navojo sand paintings to Tibetan Sand Mandalas -- exploring art while sticking to my own lane. )

 

[lariko]

Storytelling. When I see a memorable character on ice and I can see a story unfolding, that's art to me.

Examples:

Kutovoy: Gavrosh
Murav'eva's every skate pretty much
Mozalev's programs usually have a great story
Trusova's DeVille
Piper and Paul's Wuthering Heights
Boikova and Kozlovskii's Karenina

 

[Mathman]

^ What about a program that actually depicts a work of art, like Valieva's Girl on a Ball?

 

[Mathematician]

^ What about a program thatactually depicts a work of art, like Valieva's Girl on a Ball?

Yes that one had an absolutely wonderful idea behind it. I am aware of a few programs that pay homage to a specific painter's style, but no others that depict a specific painting like she did.

 

[elbkup]

So in what way is ballet different

Or that isnt an art?

11 Pirouettes…
“This isn’t ice skating rink: it’s impossible”

"White Nights" - 11 pirouettes

This film still is taking the very special place in my heart. Excellent dance on the masterly level and amazing Baryshnikov, it's a plenty of artistic impres...

youtu.be

 

[lariko]

^ What about a program thatactually depicts a work of art, like Valieva's Girl on a Ball?

That was the only program by hers I had liked. Probably the best that would ever emerge from their school as far as the idea and thematic unity is concerned.

 

[gkelly]

That was the only program by hers I had liked. Probably the best that would ever emerge from their school as far as the idea and thematic unity is concerned.

Well, it's an exhibition program. So artistic content can take precedence over trying to earn points.

 

[Mathematician]

Well, it's an exhibition program. So artistic content can take precedence over trying to earn points.

2 years she competed it, for 77 points I believe on her best skate when she was 12 (2018).