World Team Challenge

[gio]

How it is going to work out? I didn't find much info about it. I know just that it is a new ISU championship held in Japan in April and that 6 World teams will participate. For every team 2 ladies, 2 men, 1 dance and 1 pairs couple.

But which countries will participate, considering not every country has athletes in every discipline? How they are going to score the athlets in this event? Will there be a SP, an LP, a new program with less elements?

I guess the countries should be USA, Japan (Pairs?), China, Canada, Russia and France.
But Japan isn't competitive in Dance and I don't know if they even have Pairs? China is competitive just in Pairs. France is strong in Men and Dance but not in Ladies and Pairs. Russia used to be strong in all 4 disciplines, but now it is in a moment of reorganization, I guess.

So maybe the teams will be USA, Canada, Russia, Asia and Europe. That would make much more sense IMHO.

 

[Buttercup]

Probably the strongest country across all four disciplines right now is Canada. The US are strong in men's and dance, good in the ladies and ok in the pairs.

The Japanese do have pairs teams, but not any who who very good at the moment. Candice Didier has looked a bit better this season for France, and their pairs are not spectacular but not awful, so the French could definitely be competitive - the dance and men's skaters are of course excellent. You did forget the Italians, who have two very good dance teams, as well as Kostner in the ladies and the apparently rather good Contesti in the men's. Russia is still pretty good except for the ladies - Voronov when he's on can get good results.

ETA: Hey, you're in Italy! That makes the omission of the Italian skaters in the post even more surprising.

Maybe they should have one skater/team in each discipline. And add synchro teams! Now that would be fun.

 

[gio]

You did forget the Italians, who have two very good dance teams, as well as Kostner in the ladies and the apparently rather good Contesti in the men's.
ETA: Hey, you're in Italy! That makes the omission of the Italian skaters in the post even more surprising.

You know, you are right. Italy has Kostner, Contesti, Faiella/Scali and Magitteri/Hotarek. A balanced team, but with no champions. I didn't include Italy in the option because none of them is a one of the best in their relative discipline.
But France has World Champions Delobel/Schoenfelder and Joubert.
So I don't know which one will be chosen France or Italy? Or maybe both and China won't participate.

 

[Buttercup]

Unless the ISU and federations really put a lot of pressure on the skaters, I think the odds of the top ones showing up are very small. Who wants to do a competition in April halfway around the world, and before an Olympic season no less? I wouldn't. Isn't April time to rest, or to do SSG if you're French?

My guess is that it'll be a 4CC type thing, with the second tier skaters participating except for countries close to where the event is being held.

Also, while Caro and Contesti aren't world champions, neither are any of the Canadians, and Caro is a world silver and bronze medalist with two European titles to her credit. The only men's world champion still skating is Brian Joubert, and IIRC the only champions in the dance still skating are DelSchoe. There are still three active ladies' champions, though Meissner's not very competitive these days, and two active pairs teams who have won Worlds, Pang/Tong and S/S.

 

[C_T_T_]

I think there are very clear guidlines about who competes but I can't remember what they are. For the countries that qualify I think their top ranked skaters have to skate so the federations don't get to choose who goes and that way it won't just be second teir skaters. Thats just from memory though so maybe isn't quite right.

ETA: voila!
http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=911

 

[Buttercup]

C_T_T_, I saw that announcement, too, though I had to search for it because it was before you edited your post... I'm not sure it's required for each country to send its very best skaters - it looks like they're just required to send a team with all four disciplines (and obviously, with reasonably good skaters). If the ISU tries to push it too far, I predict an outbreak of knee injuries, surgeries and flu and mono cases next spring .

 

[shallwedansu]

I would love to see a competition against teams consisting of skaters from the same continent. North America vs Europe vs Asia would be a close and exciting competition,wouldn't it? Also, just imagining Mao and Yu-Na on the same team... that would totally rock!

 

[gio]

Thanks C_T_T_! :thumbsup:

So, if I did understand correctly the rules, the teams (till now) had scored those points:

-Japan = 191 + 203 + 720 + 400 + 800 + 525 = 2839
-USA = 648 + 360 + 800 + 648 + 360 + 324 = 3140
-Canada = 360 + 360 + 525 + 292 + 583 + 213 = 2333
-Russia = 720 + 525 + 292 + 236 + 262 + 225 = 2260
-France = 800 + 236 + 400 + 324 + 292 + 148 = 2200
-Italy = 583 + 236 + 97 + 0 + 648 + 203 = 1767
-China = 191 + 800 + 236 + 225 + 236 + 148 = 1836
-Germany = 120 + 648 + 236 + 108 + 203 + 164 = 1479

I hope I counted the points correctly (first number is dance, then pairs, 2 men and 2 ladies)

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Are these Rules by the ISU? or by the Japan Fed?

If it were an important competition, I would think Kostner, YuNa, Lepisto, Verner, Faiella/Scali, The Kerrs, Capolini/LaNotte, would be there.

Since it is Fed driven, and I will not see any of it, for me, it is like those 'B" comps before the GPs begin. In effect, it will not be a grand win for anyone who does win given the absence of some important top skaters of today.

Shall we call it a Cheesefest?

 

[Mathman]

I hope I counted the points correctly (first number is dance, then pairs, 2 men and 2 ladies)

Did you take into account that in chosing the two (or four) best scores, those scores might have been earned by two different teams or four different men or four different ladies, even though only half that many actually skate on the team? It seems kind of complicated.

The ISU is doing its usual saber rattling to try to force the best qualified skaters to participate. Each federation "must" send its highest ranked skaters, according to the ISU world ranking system. If a skater declnes to participate, not only is the individual skater penalized (he/she cannot skate in any competition, exhibition or show for a certain period of time), but also the ISU can disqualify the whole team and let another country go instead. (As Buttercup predicts, we should get ready for some mysterious injuries and illnesses. )

Still, why wouldn't a skater want to go to a post-season celebration and earn a share of the million dollar purse?

Since there are two men and two ladies per team, compared to one dance team and one pairs team, countries that are weak in pairs and dance are not automatically out of it. Japan, for instance could very well go first and second in ladies (12 points + 11 points) and also do well in men's with Oda and Kozuka. Japan could win overall even if they are last in both pairs and dance (the last place teams still get 7 points, compared to 1 point for the last place man and lady.)

Likewise a team like France cannot really benefit from having three strong dance teams, since only one can go. They could get killed in ladies.

In fact, one of the announced goals of the competition was to encourage counties to build up their pairs programs.

I think Italy has the upper hand over China for the 6th qualifying spot.

 

[gio]

Did you take into account that in chosing the two (or four) best scores, those scores might have been earned by two different teams or four different men or four different ladies, even though only half that many actually skate on the team? It seems kind of complicated.

Yeah, I followed ISU instructions, but they are a bit complicated, so I don't guarantee my research is correct.

Based on my calculations (till now, because the big points come with Worlds) the ranking is:

1.USA
2.Japan
3.Canada
4.Russia
5.France
6.China

7.Italy
8.Germany

 

[Buttercup]

Still, why wouldn't a skater want to go to a post-season celebration and earn a share of the million dollar purse?

Since there are two men and two ladies per team, compared to one dance team and one pairs team, countries that are weak in pairs and dance are not automatically out of it. Japan, for instance could very well go first and second in ladies (12 points + 11 points) and also do well in men's with Oda and Kozuka. Japan could win overall even if they are last in both pairs and dance (the last place teams still get 7 points, compared to 1 point for the last place man and lady.)

1. I think skaters might not want to go because it could cut into their preperation for the next season or into their opportunity to do shows (which many need to do to pay for their skating). And with the World Team thing, who knows how much money you'd win - actually, skaters who know their countries are weak in some disciplines would know ahead of time their chances of winning the top prizes are small. With shows they know ahead of time what they'll get. So if I were, say, Brian Joubert, and I'm coming off a season with injury problems and looking forward to an Olympic year, why on earth go to Japan? Maybe it just shouldn't be an annual event.

2. I also don't see why they have two men's skaters, two ladies, but only one pair and one dance team - the message I get from that is that the first two disciplines are more important. Is this the message the ISU wants to send? Japan, for instance, benefits, while the Russians, strong in pairs and dance and weaker in the singles, esp. ladies, are screwed. Why would they want to participate under those conditions, which let's face it, are unequal? Make it one skater/pair in each discipline, which should make the teams who qualify more competitive by ensuring that the weakest discipline can't hurt a team too much.

 

[Star85]

I think it's cool they're adding a new competition! Although I fear we won't get to watch it... NOT cool. I agree that it will probably be one of those competitions where the top skaters will probably not want to come if they don't have to. Top skaters don't really care too much about most new competitions, cause they haven't gained much significance right? I also think that if they are adding a new competition, they should make something special about it. Something to attract more fans maybe?... What's so special about this one again?...

Like many of you, I also don't see how it's going to work exactly... The overall top 6 countries aren't ALL strong in ALL disciplines...

 

[gio]

The problem is that the qualified skaters cannot refuse to go there and do shows instead, because there are sanctions.
The only way to not go is a medical certificate.
I think Cinquanta is taking seriously this competition.

 

[rosee]

Is this the competition that's taking place from the 16 to the 19 April?

If so the french fed has released a part of their selection:

MEN: (2)
1) Best French at worlds
2) Florent Amodio

LADIES: (2)
1) Candice Didier
2) TBD

PAIRS: (1)
1) TBD

DANCE: (1)
1) Delobel & Schoenfelder
Alt: Pechalat & Bourzat

 

[Buttercup]

The problem is that the qualified skaters cannot refuse to go there and do shows instead, because there are sanctions.
The only way to not go is a medical certificate.
I think Cinquanta is taking seriously this competition.

As I understand it, the federations can decide which skaters to send. They don't have to send their top people - at least, I couldn't find anything in the announcement mandating who goes, just that the skaters go. My guess is that they will want to protect their medal contenders and not send them to Japan to risk injuries and waste all that travel time besides (and that's also a consideration, because it almost doubles the time commitment).

So USFS can send, say Adam Rippon and Stephen Carriere instead of Evan/Johnny/Jeremy, and Kimmie and Mirai rather than Ashley or Rachael, and in the dance S/B (they could use the experience) instead of B/A or D/W , and whichever pair is not M/B, and everyone is happy.

I think the federations would be smart to send successful skaters who are finishing their first season as seniors, or juniors who are transitioning to senior skating - the skaters who could use the extra experience, and who are younger and thus less injury-prone. Can Speedy make too much noise if Amodio goes rather than Joubert, for instance? The former is a top skater who just won JGPF, so he helped get France some points. Therefore, no grounds for complaint .

Unless the top skaters want a shot at the prize money, which, upon further review, is pretty considerable even for the last-place team.

ETA: Just saw Rosee's list of the FFSG selection. So they will be sending Amodio! Can't say I'm surprised. My guess is that it won't necessarily be the top guy at Worlds - they'll probably keep their options open until they have to make a final decision.

 

[rosee]

ETA: Just saw Rosee's list of the FFSG selection. So they will be sending Amodio! Can't say I'm surprised. My guess is that it won't necessarily be the top guy at Worlds - they'll probably keep their options open until they have to make a final decision.

I agree, I don't think it will necessarily be THE top guy at worlds. But it'll definitly be either Joubert, Ponsero or Preaubert. There's quite a few important galas during this time in France. Not having only one theses 3 will not be too penalizing to sell tickets. It's a very smart choice to send Amodio. He's not yet as popular as the other 3.
I'm thrilled for him, It will definitly be a good experience!

 

[casken]

They should allow the countries to weigh the number of spots per discipline based on their strengths, with at least one in each discipline, and somehow weigh the scores across the disciplines so that it balances out.

Teams could look like this:

USA:
Weir, Lysacek, Abbott
Belbin/Agosto
M&B
1 lady

France:
Joubert, Amodio
Delobel/Schoefelder
1 lady
1 Pair
Last spot would be between P&B or Ponsero

Canada
Chan, Sawyer
Rochette
Dube/Davison
Virtue/Moir
Last spot spot could be filled in any of the categories, but most likely Duhamel/Buntin

Russia
Voronov
Mukhortova/Trankov, Kawaguchi/Smirnov
Domnina/Shabalin, Khoklova/Novitksi
1 lady

Japan
Oda, Kozuka
Asada
Reed/Reed
1 Pair
Last spot between Suguri/Ando

China
1 Man
Pang/Tong, Zhang/Zhang
1 lady
1 dance team
Last spot would be between a second man or a third pair

That would be a quality competition all around.

 

[gio]

As I understand it, the federations can decide which skaters to send. They don't have to send their top people - at least, I couldn't find anything in the announcement mandating who goes, just that the skaters go. My guess is that they will want to protect their medal contenders and not send them to Japan to risk injuries and waste all that travel time besides (and that's also a consideration, because it almost doubles the time commitment).

If I did understand correctly it is written in the paragraph 3 point b) that the federations have to send their best skaters in the ISU ranking list. If these skaters don't want to participate, they could not participate in any competition and in any gala from the end of the WCH 'till the end of April. If they do, they will be sanctioned (loosing eligibility?? or something more soft??).

 

[Buttercup]

What it says is that if a skater is among the top skaters from his/her country and decides not to particpate, they'll be sanctioned. It does not say that the federations are compelled to send their best skaters; I couldn't find anything mandating who exactly the federations have to send. Also, sanctions are limited to skaters who are their country's best and who placed top-ten at Worlds. So Candice Didier should be safe to skate in a wedding gown at whichever galas she chooses ,. Seriously, that's quite a loophole, though I imagine skaters who are not top-ten would want the chance to earn some extra money.

FFSG seems to have taken the right approach in selecting Amodio - as if anyone can say anything when you send the reigning JGPF champion . I think skating at this event might be a good consolation prize for whomever of the three French guys has to sit out Worlds, and it works, too: it'll either be the current French champion, the guy who won two GP medals this season, or the 2007 World Champion. So nobody will be able to complain about that, either.