Worlds: Men's FS

[shine]

Yuzuru is choosing his battles wisely and moving towards his 3rd OGM in Beijing truly making him the GOAT. Taking his time. Doing it his way. In the words of his coach Brian Orser "Never underestimate Mr. Hanyu."

Maybe put this in your signature to avoid redundant work?

 

[GGFan]

This interview with Brian posted in the Nathan fan fest is a lot more straightforward and realistic in its assessment:

Orser talks to Meryl and discusses things like Yuzu's rivalry with Nathan.
https://www.olympicchannel.com/en/v...-on-yuzuru-hanyu-s-future-he-ll-be-back-soon/

He specifically talks about Yuzu's stamina not quite being there yet to maximize the points on spins, footwork, etc. (that might not be something that comes across on a screen). He also explicitly talks about Nathan being more than a jumper and improving his skating skills.

He and Yuzu will sit down and figure out the math. I think that's how you play the competitive game rather than pretending that your opponent is inferior and you're being robbed. Again, Yuzu and Nathan are often much better at analyzing these things and keeping it classy than their fans.

 

[SNAKSuyun]

I will say that I admire both Yuzuru and Nathan a lot for their very different approaches to the current competition. I love Yuzu for his sincere, burning commitment to skating both as an art and as a sport (at least in the way he himself understands them). I also love Nathan for candidly acknowledging that skating is only one half (if that) of his world and he wants - and will fight for - everything. Joy and fulfillment is in the eye of the beholder, and I am certain both of them would want nothing less for themselves.

(I understand, of course, that Yuzu is also doing his studies on the side, but you guys know what I mean )

 

[FCSSp4]

Wow what an exciting event! Congratulations to Nathan but sad that Shoma couldn't make the podium.

Yuzuru was really beautiful, the Ina Bauer in Origin was my favorite thing. That costume is so wow! Really my favorite costume from the men. I love how it's so sparkly and dramatic while highlighting his slight figure. I really couldn't stop staring. It's such a LOOK. Hope he skates more because his aesthetic is so unique, I know it might be too much for some but Origin has such an unusual eroticism to it that is detached from a typically Western POV. And when he does his jumps so easily it's like being transported in another world. My heart breaks knowing that he's still recovering, get well soon Yuzu!

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Maybe put this in your signature to avoid redundant work?

The shaaade.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

This interview with Brian posted in the Nathan fan fest is a lot more straightforward and realistic in its assessment:



He specifically talks about Yuzu's stamina not quite being there yet to maximize the points on spins, footwork, etc. (that might not be something that comes across on a screen). He also explicitly talks about Nathan being more than a jumper and improving his skating skills.

He and Yuzu will sit down and figure out the math. I think that's how you play the competitive game rather than pretending that your opponent is inferior and you're being robbed. Again, Yuzu and Nathan are often much better at analyzing these things and keeping it classy than their fans.

It is interesting to note that he sees the situation with Nathan comparable to when Hanyu was inching closer to Chan's level years ago. I think with Chan though he developed his 4S a bit too late, and continued to focus on strong performances, which of course don't work mathematically. It's good that he eventually got his 4S, but he might have had better results had he prioritized it earlier. Hanyu definitely needs to bring his math on Nathan's level - the new rules allowing for one type of quad to be repeated puts him at a disadvantage if he's unable to get that 4Z back... although I'm wondering if that is something we'll see early on in the season given he didn't do a lutz here and is looking to rest up his ankle. At some point though, he'll need one of the harder quads, because you know that Chen will be revved to re-introduce the 4S, the 4L or both as the Olympics near.

 

[Blades of Passion]

It's like saying Messing could have possibly medalled if he landed everything in both programs - I mean, sure... but he wasn't even close to doing that. As it is, Brown was fortunate to place 9th (and 14th in the FS) in spite of having the 20th best TES. Ouch.

TES and PCS are different things; someone is not "fortunate" to place 9th with a 20th best TES if they have significantly better skating and artistic qualities than all those other people, which Jason does. Messing has never come close to doing a clean competition with the required tech+PCS needed to put him on a world podium, whereas Jason has. Doing a no-quad program with very high GOE's and PCS, which the judges showed they were willing to give him, would have been enough to beat Vincent.

Trying to process Nathan's win by saying it shouldn't have been by that margin is purely a defense mechanism, IMO. Hanyu scored the best PCS with a major error in the SP and the best PCS in the FS with a UR salchow

A huge to this. The PCS differential between the two of them was negligible, the mark may as well not have existed. It's a huge problem. Furthermore, turning a jump into a double or an UR on a jump (which Hanyu's wasn't) has virtually nothing to do with PCS just on their own. You continually keep saying this and really shouldn't. Hanyu's 2S in the SP was an airy and clean double jump unto itself. In a era of figure skating where a double jump from steps was required, that jump would have been greeted very warmly (had Hanyu sold it as such).

These days there are different technical requirements, so the element got 0 points, but it doesn't take away from a program unless a skater lets it be a distraction. Usually skaters do let a mistake visibly show disappointment in their performance, but if they don't, then it's whatever. Hanyu's pop in the SP did register disappointment, but his LP mistake less so. Take off .25 from transitions and choreography for the wonky landing in the LP, but that's about it, nothing else changed in how Hanyu was performing.

[in 2013-2014] there were plenty of Chan fans who were dismayed that Hanyu was starting to get similar PCS (and churning out higher tech content). People complained that Hanyu was just stacking up TES to beat Chan... doing things like putting in a 4S that he could rotate but kept falling on in order to upgrade his BV... well, Chan was welcome to do the same - don't hate the player, hate the game, if you will. It's interesting to see the tables have turned with Chen being the up and comer bringing tech content that Hanyu is being pressed to match him technically, now no longer having the PCS cushion.

Patrick Chan was overscored for a long time and Hanyu was already better at performing, utilizing body movement, and interpreting music than Patrick in the 2011-2012 season. By 2013-2014 Hanyu was doing more difficult transitions than Patrick and the only component where Patrick remained better was Skating Skills, so their PCS differential was more accurate. The current PCS differential between Nathan Chen and Hanyu is not accurate; Hanyu is superior in every component and not just by a marginal amount.

 

[GGFan]

It is interesting to note that he sees the situation with Nathan comparable to when Hanyu was inching closer to Chan's level years ago. I think with Chan though he developed his 4S a bit too late, and continued to focus on strong performances, which of course don't work mathematically. It's good that he eventually got his 4S, but he might have had better results had he prioritized it earlier. Hanyu definitely needs to bring his math on Nathan's level - the new rules allowing for one type of quad to be repeated puts him at a disadvantage if he's unable to get that 4Z back... although I'm wondering if that is something we'll see early on in the season given he didn't do a lutz here and is looking to rest up his ankle. At some point though, he'll need one of the harder quads, because you know that Chen will be revved to re-introduce the 4S, the 4L or both as the Olympics near.

Yes, that's a big part of what I think is happening here. At the 1980 Olympics Cousins was able to hold off Jan Hoffman who had a lutz but very little artistry. But by 1984 you had to have a lutz to compete and by 1988 a triple axel. With the ladies all the top ones in 1988 only needed the Salchow, Toe, and a harder one (Loop or Flip usually). However, by the next quad a lutz was a must. I think Yuzu see the tea leaves and by 2022 he has to have one of the harder quads (Flip, Lutz or Axel).

Of course, that's not to say that ice isn't slippery and that a program with less content cannot win.

ETA: And I think Evan was an aberration caused by a change in judging systems and a temporary jump regression to handle all the new requirements.

 

[Interspectator]

This interview with Brian posted in the Nathan fan fest is a lot more straightforward and realistic in its assessment:



He specifically talks about Yuzu's stamina not quite being there yet to maximize the points on spins, footwork, etc. (that might not be something that comes across on a screen). He also explicitly talks about Nathan being more than a jumper and improving his skating skills.

He and Yuzu will sit down and figure out the math. I think that's how you play the competitive game rather than pretending that your opponent is inferior and you're being robbed. Again, Yuzu and Nathan are often much better at analyzing these things and keeping it classy than their fans.

I agree that both Nathan and Yuzu are the quintessential good sports. Genuinely nice guys and set a standard for everyone.

But I also want to add that there is a strategy involved as well. This is just my opinion on it, but there is no upside for an athlete to complain about their scores to the media. None at all. When ever I've seen it happen, it does not go well for the athlete even if they feel they have a justified complaint. Their fans will loudly agree, but what then? It only reinforces a disadvantaged mindset in the athlete. A proactive mindset takes the scores that are given as a challenge to do better, and push harder. Letting oneself believe that the scores were unfair puts the fate of their victory in someone else' hands. It's not a competitive mindset.

However, lack of complaint from sensible and brilliant athletes doesn't mean that the judges can't do much better with their scoring.
The point is not that because skater A won, and skater B fans want to negate that. Fans will of course be more interested in the scores of their favorites and favorites rivals and therefore give it more attention. The question is can the judges scores stand up to scrutiny? If an attentive fan finds a discrepancy in the scores and wants to discuss them, (respectfully, one hopes) then this IS the place to do it.

In all this, I don't want the greater picture to be lost, however. We love skating, and the skaters who provide us with this entertainment deserve all our respect. Judging is also a tough and thankless job, and they are also human and not perfect. Discussing areas where improvements can be made or where we disagree is the reason we have such threads on the forum. It's also a place where we can just be happy with the results and not think too deeply about the inner workings. To each their own.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

TES and PCS are different things; someone is not "fortunate" to place 9th with a 20th best TES if they have significantly better skating and artistic qualities than all those other people, which Jason does. Messing has never come close to doing a clean competition with the required tech+PCS needed to put him on a world podium, whereas Jason has. Doing a no-quad program with very high GOE's and PCS, which the judges showed they were willing to give him, would have been enough to beat Vincent.



A huge to this. The PCS differential between the two of them was negligible, the mark may as well not have existed. It's a huge problem. Furthermore, turning a jump into a double or an UR on a jump (which Hanyu's wasn't) has virtually nothing to do with PCS just on their own. You continually keep saying this and really shouldn't. Hanyu's 2S in the SP was an airy and clean double jump unto itself. In a era of figure skating where a double jump from steps was required, that jump would have been greeted very warmly (had Hanyu sold it as such).

These days there are different technical requirements, so the element got 0 points, but it doesn't take away from a program unless a skater lets it be a distraction. Usually skaters do let a mistake visibly show disappointment in their performance, but if they don't, then it's whatever. Hanyu's pop in the SP did register disappointment, but his LP mistake less so. Take off .25 from transitions and choreography for the wonky landing in the LP, but that's about it, nothing else changed in how Hanyu was performing.

Patrick Chan was overscored for a long time and Hanyu was already better at performing, utilizing body movement, and interpreting music than Patrick in the 2011-2012 season. By 2013-2014 Hanyu was doing more difficult transitions than Patrick and the only component where Patrick remained better was Skating Skills, so their PCS differential was more accurate. The current PCS differential between Nathan Chen and Hanyu is not accurate; Hanyu is superior in every component and not just by a marginal amount.

While he wasn't great at Worlds, Messing has pulled higher scores than Brown's PB twice this season. Adding his best SP and FS you get 274 points which does challenge for the podium. The diffference is, Keegan has actually landed his elements in competition, so he's certainly closer to doing a clean competition with the tech/PCS required to be on a World podium than a quadless Brown has shown. The only way Brown would ever get on the World podium is if he was picture perfect and got help from the other guys bombing. Keegan could get to the podium, given that his PCS has improved, and he's developing stronger tech content. He pulled almost 180 points with pretty much a clean FS at the 4CC and did a clean SP

When you talk about who COULD medal, you need to talk about it using a lens of what those have actually demonstrated the ability to execute. And Brown hasn't ever done a clean 4S in competition, and I can't even recall him rotating it cleanly internationally. Keegan at least has a quad which puts his clean SP on par with a clean, quadless Brown. And then in the FS having 2 quads gives him an edge over Brown as well. Brown has better extension on his spins, but Messing has good speed and strong basic positions, so the GOE difference doesn't end up being that high either. Jason's overall quality of skating is way better but it's immediately negated by the lack of quads. The highest TES Brown's gotten this season is 82... that doesn't cut it for World podium by any stretch.

As for suggesting Keegan can't do a clean competition, he almost had one at 4CC 2019, so I have no idea what you're talking about. I mean, you have seem to believe Messing isn't able to pull off a clean competition when he came close just a few months ago... but somehow seem to have faith in Brown to execute a clean competition with a quad that he's never actually executed in competition -- but when was the last time he did a clean or close to clean INTERNATIONAL competition (even if you take out the quad attempt errors) that put him close to current World podium contention?

Also, ROFLMAO at "airy, clean, warmly-greeted double jump"! Never change, BOP.

 

[GGFan]

I agree that both Nathan and Yuzu are the quintessential good sports. Genuinely nice guys and set a standard for everyone.

But I also want to add that there is a strategy involved as well. This is just my opinion on it, but there is no upside for an athlete to complain about their scores to the media. None at all. When ever I've seen it happen, it does not go well for the athlete even if they feel they have a justified complaint. Their fans will loudly agree, but what then? It only reinforces a disadvantaged mindset in the athlete. A proactive mindset takes the scores that are given as a challenge to do better, and push harder. Letting oneself believe that the scores were unfair puts the fate of their victory in someone else' hands. It's not a competitive mindset.

However, lack of complaint from sensible and brilliant athletes doesn't mean that the judges can't do much better with their scoring.
The point is not that because skater A won, and skater B fans want to negate that. Fans will of course be more interested in the scores of their favorites and favorites rivals and therefore give it more attention. The question is can the judges scores stand up to scrutiny? If an attentive fan finds a discrepancy in the scores and wants to discuss them, (respectfully, one hopes) then this IS the place to do it.

In all this, I don't want the greater picture to be lost, however. We love skating, and the skaters who provide us with this entertainment deserve all our respect. Judging is also a tough and thankless job, and they are also human and not perfect. Discussing areas where improvements can be made or where we disagree is the reason we have such threads on the forum. It's also a place where we can just be happy with the results and not think too deeply about the inner workings. To each their own.

I completely agree that the two are not mutually exclusive. My point was not a) Brian isn't complaining, so b) no one should complain.

What I am saying rather is that discussions about judging are most fruitful when we talk about the issues across the board and not frame it as how dare the judges place Nathan so close to Yuzu. People with the highest technical content and an acceptable level of artistry have always gotten the benefit of the doubt in this sport.

Acceptable level is important. Timothy Goebel found it hard to beat Plushenko and Yagudin because his artistry was below par. The judges have clearly signaled that in the last two years, with the programs and the packaging he's received Nathan has crossed the threshold of acceptable artistry.

This is not a normative argument. I'm just describing the sport as it has been for decades. Now a discussion about PCS can and should certainly be had here and other places. But that also requires and acknowledgement of Yuzu and Patrick and many other skaters receiving some of these same favors. Sometimes Yuzu's skating skills have inflated his composition marks for example. Nathan has often gotten the benefit of the doubt on transitions. All of the top 4 in Worlds ignore parts of their music in favor of quad preparations and the judges give them the benefit of the doubt.

Now that's an honest and open conversation about PCS. You have not done this but there are others who just believe that Yuzu stepping on the ice deserves a 96 in PCS. All of his programs have not been created equal and he has issues with his artistry he can work on as well.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Yes, that's a big part of what I think is happening here. At the 1980 Olympics Cousins was able to hold off Jan Hoffman who had a lutz but very little artistry. But by 1984 you had to have a lutz to compete and by 1988 a triple axel. With the ladies all the top ones in 1988 only needed the Salchow, Toe, and a harder one (Loop or Flip usually). However, by the next quad a lutz was a must. I think Yuzu see the tea leaves and by 2022 he has to have one of the harder quads (Flip, Lutz or Axel).

The technical growth seen in the 80's and early 90's was a far wider gap than the current difference between Hanyu and Nathan. Frankly, Nathan has never even shown better technical merit than what Hanyu did in his 2017 LP. There is not such a big difference between Quad Lutz and Quad Loop, they are both extremely difficult. It really should come down to overall quality when both competitors are doing so many difficult jumps, and Hanyu's quality is better.

 

[GGFan]

The technical growth seen in the 80's and early 90's was a far wider gap than the current difference between Hanyu and Nathan. Frankly, Nathan has never even shown better technical merit than what Hanyu did in his 2017 LP. There is not such a big difference between Quad Lutz and Quad Loop, they are both extremely difficult. It really should come down to overall quality when both competitors are doing so many difficult jumps, and Hanyu's quality is better.

I don't think history agrees with you here. Otherwise skaters would have stuck with their old content and won. There shouldn't have been a big gap between a triple loop and triple lutz either but at some point that step was required. Katarina Witt looked like a dinosaur with her technical content in 1994 (but much improved artistry).

ETA: Another example is Javi who would definitely need a harder quad now.

 

[Mrs. P]

While he wasn't great at Worlds, Messing has pulled higher scores than Brown's PB twice this season. Adding his best SP and FS you get 274 points which does challenge for the podium. The diffference is, Keegan has actually landed his elements in competition, so he's certainly closer to doing a clean competition with the tech/PCS required to be on a World podium than a quadless Brown has shown. The only way Brown would ever get on the World podium is if he was picture perfect and got help from the other guys bombing. Keegan could get to the podium, given that his PCS has improved, and he's developing stronger tech content. He pulled almost 180 points with pretty much a clean FS at the 4CC and did a clean SP

When you talk about who COULD medal, you need to talk about it using a lens of what those have actually demonstrated the ability to execute. And Brown hasn't ever done a clean 4S in competition, and I can't even recall him rotating it cleanly internationally. Keegan at least has a quad which puts his clean SP on par with a clean, quadless Brown. And then in the FS having 2 quads gives him an edge over Brown as well. Brown has better extension on his spins, but Messing has good speed and strong basic positions, so the GOE difference doesn't end up being that high either. Jason's overall quality of skating is way better but it's immediately negated by the lack of quads. The highest TES Brown's gotten this season is 82... that doesn't cut it for World podium by any stretch.

Granted, old system, but Jason's PB under +3/-3 is 273 something from I believe 2017 Worlds. And +5/-5 only increased the amount of points Jason has been able to earn in +GOE, as we saw in the SP (his PB in the SP was 94 vs. 96 here at Worlds).

Unfortunately, a clean FS was not to be this season, so there is no data point on what could have been. Maybe WTT there might be another opportunity but no guarantee he’s going.

Keegan has been inconsistent all season long as Jason has been. And yes while Keegan can podium, he certainly wasn't close here (RIP Canada world spot. ). As badly as Jason did in the FS, he still did enough where the US would earn three spots with any combination of the three US men’s placements.

Also if Keegan can improve on his technical arsenal so can Jason -- Keegan is actually a few years older.

In any case, I find the fact we're arguing whether Jason could have ended up on the podium is kinda amusing now considering that a year ago he was contemplating walking away from the sport. Honestly as a fan, I'm just grateful that we're arguing whether Jason can or can't do this and that rather than asking "what if." We may still end up doing that, but Jason's overall trajectory is a total upgrade compared to a year ago.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I don't think history agrees with you here. Otherwise skaters would have stuck with their old content and won. There shouldn't have been a big gap between a triple loop and triple lutz either but at some point that step was required.

In the past, people were adding entirely new jumps into the programs. It was the difference between an entire extra Triple in the program or not. The difference between Quad Lutz and Quad Loop in the Men's event now is not the same situation. It's literally a 1 point base value difference and that's it.

ETA: Another example is Javi who would definitely need a harder quad now.

That's because a 3rd type of quad is replacing a triple jump. So it's a large point difference. Hanyu is already doing 3 types of quads. The difference in value between the quads themselves is not as significant.

 

[GGFan]

In the past, people were adding entirely new jumps into the programs. It was the difference between an entire extra Triple in the program or not. The difference between Quad Lutz and Quad Loop in the Men's event now is not the same situation. It's literally a 1 point base value difference and that's it.

I think you're missing the point: it's not only about the inherent difficulty of the new move or the point difference: it is the perception that goes along with it. At some point in this very subjective sport the judges start tipping their hands and giving an advantage. In the women's, at some point, if you didn't have a lutz you were not fighting for gold. Maybe your technical mark was starting at a 5.5 and they were also penalizing you in the second mark whether consciously or not.

They did this with Patrick as well. Something kind of like this quad toe is cute and all but you also need a salchow. I think the judges are tipping their hand here as well. Otherwise Yuzu and Brian would not be sitting down and doing math. You can think this is not how the world should operate but the judges marks tell a different story.

ETA: Yuzu also knows that Nathan has the quad loop and salchow. There's a battle of perception, technical content, psychology, etc. being waged and our feelings will not prevent the sport from moving on.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

The technical growth seen in the 80's and early 90's was a far wider gap than the current difference between Hanyu and Nathan. Frankly, Nathan has never even shown better technical merit than what Hanyu did in his 2017 LP. There is not such a big difference between Quad Lutz and Quad Loop, they are both extremely difficult. It really should come down to overall quality when both competitors are doing so many difficult jumps, and Hanyu's quality is better.

Ummm, what?!

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/owg2018/OWG2018_MenSingleSkating_FS_Scores.pdf

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/wc2017/wc2017_Men_FS_Scores.pdf

Hanyu's quality of jumps at their best is better than Chen's but he did not execute them as well as he can at Worlds. The 4Z and 4L (which, in your mind, are not a huge difference) Chen executed his better (and in both programs at that) than Hanyu executed his 4L.

 

[Blades of Passion]

While he wasn't great at Worlds, Messing has pulled higher scores than Brown's PB twice this season. When you talk about who COULD medal, you need to talk about it using a lens of what those have actually demonstrated the ability to execute.

Brown's former PB is irrelevant to how he would be scored now and Brown has shown the ability to do clean Long Programs without a Quad. He even did a clean one with a Quad at 2016 Skate America (the quad was hotly debated as rotated enough or not, but definitely landed cleanly otherwise)!

Regardless of that, we were talking about if someone without a Quad possibly could have won a medal at this competition. The answer is YES and you can do the math yourself - take the base value of a program with no quad, plug in an average of +4 GOE per element (which is what Jason averaged in the SP) and put in 93 PCS, which again the judges also showed they were willing to give to Jason. It would have beaten Vincent.

As for suggesting Keegan can't do a clean competition, he almost had one at 4CC 2019, so I have no idea what you're talking about.

"Almost" isn't enough and you should read what was written. I said Keegan has never shown the necessary amount of tech+PCS to beat what Vincent did at these Worlds. His skating is not at the same level as Jason's.

Also, ROFLMAO at "airy, clean, warmly-greeted double jump"! Never change, BOP.

Double jump out of footwork was required in the SP until 1994 and audiences indeed applauded the skaters when they did it. Double jumps can have distinct choreographic purpose and they can be executed with great quality.

Ummm, what?!

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/owg2018/OWG2018_MenSingleSkating_FS_Scores.pdf

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/wc2017/wc2017_Men_FS_Scores.pdf

I don't care what THOSE judges gave or what the scoring system at that time said. Nathan's GOE's were too high and also the scoring system was different last season, where step-outs on quads didn't lose as many points. Yuzuru at 2017 Worlds, in my objective analysis, is better technically than anything Nathan has done.

Similarly, Hanyu's LP at this competition would have deserved to technically outscore Nathan's LP at this competition, if he had executed that 4Sal to his normal standard and if the 4Toe+3Axel was credited properly. He didn't need to only win technically though, as there is an entire other part of figure skating - the PCS. Hanyu with his one mistake and the combo not being credited properly still deserved to outscore Nathan in the LP.

I think you're missing the point: it's not only about the inherent difficulty of the new move or the point difference: it is the perception that goes along with it. At some point in this very subjective sport the judges start tipping their hands and giving an advantage. In the women's, at some point, if you didn't have a lutz you were not fighting for gold. Maybe your technical mark was starting at a 5.5 and they were also penalizing you in the second mark whether consciously or not.

The judges scoring things incorrectly has no bearing on how things SHOULD be scored. There are constantly debates within the community about how things should be scored; the rules and "judging perception" is constantly changing as such. All we can do it debate how we think things should be scored and eventually the system and perceptions will change (or not). We can already see the current perception with Jason's score in the SP without a Quad, though. He scored much better than he would have in the past and the judges essentially said it didn't matter that he lacked a quad, as far as their assessment of the actual skating.

Hanyu popping his Quad in the SP while Nathan skated clean is what ruled the "perception" of this competition for the judges between those two. If Hanyu had skated his SP perfectly, he probably would have won the competition, because his PCS for both programs would have increased and also the judges probably wouldn't have called his LP Quad as underrotated, having no reason to doubt his ability on it. Granted, Nathan still would have been overscored, and that is something I will continually fight against, but the entire outcome of this competition may have hinged on that one jump.

 

[oatmella]

Kurt Browning said in the CBC broadcast that the popped 4S was a 'bigger mistake than it looked.' I guess it did change the entire competition between him and Nathan.

 

[el henry]

I am enjoying technical discussions of which I understand about half.

But when we talk about podiums, why is it so horrible/terrible/unthinkable to factor in at least one or two skaters not skating their best and another skating lights out? (I am not saying *wishing*, I am saying *factoring*. Not depending, not counting on, factoring.)

Despite what I think may be presumed of me as a Jason fan, I do indeed view figure skating through a sporting lens. The NFL is predicated on “Any given Sunday”. I watch figure skating in part for “Any given comp”.

To me, totaling BVs is like playing fantasy football. I’d rather see what’s on the field, and what’s on the ice.

And to bring it back to Worlds men’s FS, at the beginning of the year, I would have been thrilled if you told me Jason made the Worlds team, finished in the top ten and a silver small medal in the SP, beyond imagining. :roll9: But as he progressed and improved, I was like, wow, this coaching change thing may actually work ETA: and expectations rose; playoffs seemed possible

Any given Sunday, any given comp. A fine sporting tradition:agree: