2016 Four Continents Mens Free Skate

[vivley]

I agree with Panpie. Chan's skating is technically excellent, but it is almost like a gymnastic exercise on ice, where all the emphasis is on the technical and the music becomes merely the background for rhythmic purposes. Chan skates for himself; the only invitation is that you can watch him skate. Chan devotees and technical purists love his skating above all others.

But I prefer Hanyu who combines superb musicality with technical excellence---his intense connection to the music reaches out and invites the audience and the viewer to share the performance with him (I find myself actually 'jumping' with him when he jumps!) . So often the audience is on their feet long before the performance is over.

Thank you for explaining. As someone who likes Chan's skating, I just can't understand these comments about his performances leaving people cold. I suspected it had something to do with how much he engages the audiences when he skates (something he tries to do in his SP), but was curious to know what he was doing or not doing to elicit such a response.

Indeed, I compare Chan to a master artist. His studio is open and you can go watch him work, but he won't be engaging you much except at the beginning and end of your visit. Visitors are there to learn by observation and admire his craftsmanship. But he is not a Bob Ross who will talk to you and invite you to try to do what he is doing.

My opinion is that unless he is skating in an exhibition or a show, his attempts to engage the audience have not been very successful. His SP hasn't been as good except at Nationals, when he's in front of a home crowd that loves him. So audience engagement is actually a distraction and perhaps detriment to his competitive performances.

Also, if Chan's skating is merely technical and therefore "cold", what about quad machine Jin Boyang? Wouldn't his skating leave people "cold" as well?

 

[lavender]

I was so excited to see Patrick came roaring back. I'm pretty much a fan of all the artistic/techical skaters like Patrick, Hanyu, Javier and so on.

 

[Interspectator]

Thank you for explaining. As someone who likes Chan's skating, I just can't understand these comments about his performances leaving people cold. I suspected it had something to do with how much he engages the audiences when he skates (something he tries to do in his SP), but was curious to know what he was doing or not doing to elicit such a response.

Indeed, I compare Chan to a master artist. His studio is open and you can go watch him work, but he won't be engaging you much except at the beginning and end of your visit. Visitors are there to learn by observation and admire his craftsmanship. But he is not a Bob Ross who will talk to you and invite you to try to do what he is doing.

My opinion is that unless he is skating in an exhibition or a show, his attempts to engage the audience have not been very successful. His SP hasn't been as good except at Nationals, when he's in front of a home crowd that loves him. So audience engagement is actually a distraction and perhaps detriment to his competitive performances.

Also, if Chan's skating is merely technical and therefore "cold", what about quad machine Jin Boyang? Wouldn't his skating leave people "cold" as well?

I speak merely from my single perspective but Boyang, though his jumps are his strongest weapon, is very engaging.
He performs out to the audience. Even that boring slow part in the middle of his program he is performing outwards, and he has musicality. His skating skills and the way he moves his body needs a ton of work and polishing, but the foundation of hearing the music and moving his body to it in a way that entertains people is there. -Some skaters far more polished than Boyang and with better skating skills have less musicality than him.

 

[vivley]

[/B]

I speak merely from my single perspective but Boyang, though his jumps are his strongest weapon, is very engaging.
He performs out to the audience. Even that boring slow part in the middle of his program he is performing outwards, and he has musicality. His skating skills and the way he moves his body needs a ton of work and polishing, but the foundation of hearing the music and moving his body to it in a way that entertains people is there. -Some skaters far more polished than Boyang and with better skating skills have less musicality than him.

Thank you for sharing your perspective. As I suspected, audience entertainment seems to be a big factor in how likeable a skater is. But for Patrick I think he may see figure skating as more of a pure sport and artistic exercise, at least in competition. Thus, audience entertainment would not be high on his list of priorities there.

So according to your perspective, in order to not leave people cold, a skater must 1) Be outward focused while skating, even in competition. (No introverts allowed!) and 2) Have the musicality required to move their body in a way that entertains people.

I'm not sure how important these factors are in competition - whether they significantly affect scoring or placement. But I can see why they are important to some FS fans.

 

[melmel]

[/B]

I speak merely from my single perspective but Boyang, though his jumps are his strongest weapon, is very engaging.
He performs out to the audience. Even that boring slow part in the middle of his program he is performing outwards, and he has musicality. His skating skills and the way he moves his body needs a ton of work and polishing, but the foundation of hearing the music and moving his body to it in a way that entertains people is there. -Some skaters far more polished than Boyang and with better skating skills have less musicality than him.

Plus it's really hard to stay "cold" when a skater is not very fast and then suddenly you have a giant jump with 4 speed of light rotations

But yes, he is an engaging skater. Especially in his SP where he's not as drained than in his LP, but he's a ball of energy and you both see it and feel it. Even with a really not great choreo in his LP, he's not crushed by his music. He doesn't have enough stamina yet to really show his musicality in his LP but it's obvious in his SP. His tango interpretation is still young, but it's his first year in senior so that's not a surprise or unexpected.

 

[Interspectator]

Thank you for sharing your perspective. As I suspected, audience entertainment seems to be a big factor in how likeable a skater is. But for Patrick I think he may see figure skating as more of a pure sport and artistic exercise, at least in competition. Thus, audience entertainment would not be high on his list of priorities there.

So according to your perspective, in order to not leave people cold, a skater must 1) Be outward focused while skating, even in competition. (No introverts allowed!) and 2) Have the musicality required to move their body in a way that entertains people.

I'm not sure how important these factors are in competition - whether they significantly affect scoring or placement. But I can see why they are important to some FS fans.

Yep, I think so. But Patrick's got fans that looove his style of skating so not everyone prefers the extroverts. There are skaters who fall anywhere in this spectrum for me. The extreme outward performers like Misha Ge and Jason Brown on one end, somewhere in the middle are Yuzuru Hanyu, Joshua Farris, and Denis Ten and the very understated like Kozuka, Patrick and Ross Miner. It becomes a matter of taste and personal enjoyment.
I like to see a competition where all the styles are well represented than one where there is too much of one or the other.

I don't know how much this affects judging though. probably not much. Chan pulls top scores for PCS, so one doesn't need to worry that his understated style is unappreciated by the judges. But the same goes for Javi whose exuberant style is also well received. One can have both.

 

[melmel]

About Patrick, the thing about him is that one thing he can really well convey to the audience is... his stress. His free at the 4CC was very interesting cause I could feel his tension but it was a more "relaxed" tension, a more controled one. He stayed focused and with the same amount of "tension" through his whole skate.
I think if he can relax for his SP he will be able to convey the playful/jazzy of it much better. When I saw him in the very first practice in Barcelona he started his SP very relaxed, very in the mood of the music and I actually felt a connection to him. But at the first mistake he completely closed off and he stayed in that super tight tension until the free skate. (and there was still some remnant of it during his skate)

Maybe that's why I can't be "touched" by his programs because I'm too sensitive of his stress, so I'm not sensitive to the message/emotions he might try to share.

 

[MeaganSkater]

Okay so not sure where to ask this question but what's the status of the Canadian Men's team for Worlds 2016? Am I correct here by saying that Kevin Reynolds did not get the ISU technical minimum for the short program? If so does this mean Nam will go in his place or does Kevin have time to attend another competition in order to attain the minimums necessary?

 

[ice coverage]

Okay so not sure where to ask this question but what's the status of the Canadian Men's team for Worlds 2016?

After nationals, Skate Canada assigned Patrick and Liam to its two slots for worlds.

Kevin never had a slot on the world team for 2016.

 

[SGrand]

I honestly don't get how anyone paying attention can miss all the breathtaking nuances in Patrick's skating - he is the only one I can see hitting and expressing *every note* in character, be they staccatos, bathos, crescendos, he delivers such intricate details so perfectly timed, at such speed, power and flow, my jaws just drop...:eeking:

There's so much talk about Patrick's lack of transitions in and out of jumps, ina bauers, spread eagles, etc., but Patrick's steps before and after his jumps are perfectly timed to express the music, even if they weren't transitions for +GOE, for example, at 3.05 he delivered his second 3A combo, but just watch every step he did after the jump...it's seamlessly at one with the notes. This to me is just as difficult as transitions and more suited to the choreography for that segment of the music.

From beginning till the end of this FS, there were no unnecessary flourishes, every move is perfectly timed and expressed to the highly complex, moody music. This is no straightforward Dragon Racing or Titanic music. Even though I love Jin, and can watch his jumps all day, this level of artistry belongs to another realm.

I agree with the Eurosport guys that this FS is Patrick's best ever and tops even his 3 previous World championship performances. Of course our tastes and preferences are always subjective, but I cannot understand how objectively anyone can fail to see the skating skills, technique and emotional commitment needed to achieve this level of execution.

I am spellbound by his LP here. He never really stops, but it doesn't seem forced or too jam packed, just amazing movement and posture throughout. Nothing feels segmented here, it is so fluid and it is hard to tell where step sequences begin and end. He has that one "break" where I agree with Johnny Weir that it is a beautiful moment with the music and even then, it's not like he is just standing there.
And I have no issue with his costume lol!
It's simple and understated and goes with the program. It may not go with something more out there and flamboyant, but for this music and choreo, it is completely suited to it.

 

[Heleng]

Patrick's style is so important to skating though. For the sake of variety and attracting different kinds of fans to skating. While my family all cheered loudest for the Chinese guys and enjoyed their performances the most, in other living rooms, I'm sure Chan got the loudest cheer and moved people deeply. The fact that the top 5 did so well was the best part. -There was something for everyone to cheer about.

-Usually we cheer for team Japan, being Japanese and all that, but team China is just so darned cute, we were saying that if Japan and China ever want to patch up their relationship, they should send their skaters as good-will ambassadors.
Chinese skaters have big fan-bases in Japan and visa-versa, Yuzu attracts a lot of Chinese fans. And whenever they get together, you see a lot of fun interaction between team Japan and team China. :luv17:

Completely agree that Patrick's skating is important to the sport, especially in this era of jumps and more jumps. I was just remarking on my emotional reaction despite appreciating his supreme skating skills, choreography, and performance. But this is the subjective part of the sport. I've been "educating" (lol) my friend who knows nothing about figure skating but will be accompanying me to Worlds for a mini reunion (we attended college in the Boston area), and she absolutely loved Patrick's FS - she said she could watch it over and over. I loved that her reaction differed from mine. If we all agreed, it would be boring! Also, for the record, I could care less what country a skater represents - if a skater appeals to me, I'm going to love her/him. My favorites in the men's 4cc FS were from Japan (Shoma) and China (Yan). Although, since I'm from the U.S., I do admit to WANTING the U.S. skaters to do well

 

[padme21]

I honestly don't get how anyone paying attention can miss all the breathtaking nuances in Patrick's skating - he is the only one I can see hitting and expressing *every note* in character, be they staccatos, bathos, crescendos, he delivers such intricate details so perfectly timed, at such speed, power and flow, my jaws just drop...:eeking:

There's so much talk about Patrick's lack of transitions in and out of jumps, ina bauers, spread eagles, etc., but Patrick's steps before and after his jumps are perfectly timed to express the music, even if they weren't transitions for +GOE, for example, at 3.05 he delivered his second 3A combo, but just watch every step he did after the jump...it's seamlessly at one with the notes. This to me is just as difficult as transitions and more suited to the choreography for that segment of the music.

From beginning till the end of this FS, there were no unnecessary flourishes, every move is perfectly timed and expressed to the highly complex, moody music. This is no straightforward Dragon Racing or Titanic music. Even though I love Jin, and can watch his jumps all day, this level of artistry belongs to another realm.

I agree with the Eurosport guys that this FS is Patrick's best ever and tops even his 3 previous World championship performances. Of course our tastes and preferences are always subjective, but I cannot understand how objectively anyone can fail to see the skating skills, technique and emotional commitment needed to achieve this level of execution.

Chan is not everyone's cup of tea. I'm not a fan myself. I acknowledge that he's got great SS and talent. His skating on a whole does nothing for me. I much prefer Hanyu, Fernandez, Brown. Not everyone has to like Chan.

 

[hikki]

I agree with Panpie. Chan's skating is technically excellent, but it is almost like a gymnastic exercise on ice, where all the emphasis is on the technical and the music becomes merely the background for rhythmic purposes. Chan skates for himself; the only invitation is that you can watch him skate. Chan devotees and technical purists love his skating above all others.

I was personally so completely in owe of Patrick's Etude in C minor I cried. I agree with qwertyskates post #1022. Patrick's skating is so in synch with each note of the piece, it's like his feet are playing the piano. There is nothing contrived about his movements in the entire program. He might not have the best dance quality with his upper-body movements, but to me this pure match of his mastery of skating and the Chopin piece is a splendid form of art. Randomly I was reminded of Gordeeva and Grinkov's Moonlight Sonata LP. I felt the same way with that program as Patrick's Chopin.

Now if the question is if Patrick is the most extroverted type of dancer, the answer is no. He's no Daisuke. He is definitely much better than before, say his Aranjuez season. I can tell he takes time to feel the music. But in this regard, I think he requires music that suits his style. I'm not a big fan of his jazzy pieces. That's so 2012.

So no, he definitely does not leave me cold.

 

[Panpie]

Chan is not everyone's cup of tea. I'm not a fan myself. I acknowledge that he's got great SS and talent. His skate on a whole does nothing for me. I much prefer Hanyu, Fernandez, Brown. Not everyone has to like Chan.

Bingo. You succinctly expressed in one post what I attempted to say in several.

 

[el henry]

Am I the only person who is a Jason uber, who adores Misha, who really enjoys Javi's FS, *and* loved that skate of Patrick's?

Before 4CCs, I didn't understand the love, but now I do; he seemed so perfectly in tune with the music, the movements, and the Revolutionary Etude and the B Minor are scarcely "introverted" pieces of music. Patrick's meshing with that music actually seemed the height of performing to me.

Maybe some day I will "get" Boyang, sigh. The kid is trying to sell it, I'll give him that, but I just can't buy what he's selling. Maybe after a year with Rohene? Now *that* would be interesting!

 

[Panpie]

oh gowod grief. you've mryinade yourself perfectly clear. you aren't crazy about Chan. that's fine. the poster didn't say you think Chan is a legend (or in fact, if e Cehane is actually a legend). Just that everyone has an opinion.

You know, I have been trying to be nice. My post was addressed to Jeff goldblum, who did make a distinction between personal taste and legendary status. If you don't like what I have to say, you can always scroll through or put me on ignore. I don't think I've been remotely nasty, and I think I have every right to respond to a post that was directed at me.

Edited to add: I think Jeff goldblum and I were having a reasonable discussion although we don't agree on everything. I appreciate his comments and think he makes interesting points. I also understand the English language and do not need someone to (wrongly) explain to me what he said.

 

[melmel]

Of course our tastes and preferences are always subjective, but I cannot understand how objectively anyone can fail to see the skating skills, technique and emotional commitment needed to achieve this level of execution.

I don't see anyone dismissing those points. Not getting teary-eyes or butterlies in the stomach watching a performance doesn't mean we don't recognize the quality of its execution.

 

[ice coverage]

(1) Re the ice quality at Four Continents:

the ice felt like the Himalayas. We think the zamboni blade must have been crooked, because there were gigantic grooves all along the ice surface.​

(2) Re skaters getting ill at Four Continents:

Alex came down with a pretty nasty stomach bug the night after the free dance.​

The quotes above are from the Four Continents blog of ice dancers Yura Min and Alex Gamelin (who train in Michigan for Team Korea).

http://www.ice-dance.com/site/2016-four-continents-blog-3-by-min-gamelin/ (posted Feb 21)​

Posting the excerpts from the dance blog here in the men's thread because it has had ongoing discussion of these two topics.

 

[vivley]

I like to see a competition where all the styles are well represented than one where there is too much of one or the other.

I don't know how much this affects judging though. probably not much. Chan pulls top scores for PCS, so one doesn't need to worry that his understated style is unappreciated by the judges. But the same goes for Javi whose exuberant style is also well received. One can have both.

Yes, it's good to see all types of skaters bring their best to a competition. :agree:

About Patrick, the thing about him is that one thing he can really well convey to the audience is... his stress. His free at the 4CC was very interesting cause I could feel his tension but it was a more "relaxed" tension, a more controled one. He stayed focused and with the same amount of "tension" through his whole skate.
I think if he can relax for his SP he will be able to convey the playful/jazzy of it much better. When I saw him in the very first practice in Barcelona he started his SP very relaxed, very in the mood of the music and I actually felt a connection to him. But at the first mistake he completely closed off and he stayed in that super tight tension until the free skate. (and there was still some remnant of it during his skate)

Maybe that's why I can't be "touched" by his programs because I'm too sensitive of his stress, so I'm not sensitive to the message/emotions he might try to share.

Wow, thank you for sharing your insight! Do you feel this tension when watching him on TV, or in person or both? Patrick has admitted to being very hard on himself this season, and he is a perfectionist. What a shame if this perfectionism creates stress that keeps him from connecting with the audience, even turning some of them off to him forever; because he has said that he wanted to skate to please people. But he is learning and I think that's why he did so well at 4CC. Hopefully he will also learn to have more self-compassion when he makes mistakes. The upside of this is that he's not such a good actor to where he can put on an act and hide his emotions from everyone.

Can I link to your post?

---------------------------------------------

Just wanted to add that even though I may not know much about a skater or even dislike their skating, I do respect almost every one, because they all had to sacrifice and go through hardships in order to reach the level they are at today, be it injuries, illness, financial hardship, and more. They are human, so I aim to think of them kindly.

 

[Panpie]

(1) Re the ice quality at Four Continents:

the ice felt like the Himalayas. We think the zamboni blade must have been crooked, because there were gigantic grooves all along the ice surface.​

(2) Re skaters getting ill at Four Continents:

Alex came down with a pretty nasty stomach bug the night after the free dance.​

The quotes above are from the Four Continents blog of ice dancers Yura Min and Alex Gamelin (who train in Michigan for Team Korea).

http://www.ice-dance.com/site/2016-four-continents-blog-3-by-min-gamelin/ (posted Feb 21)​

Posting the excerpts from the dance blog here in the men's thread because it has had ongoing discussion of these two topics.

Maybe a norovirus was going around. This is the time of year, and if the skaters were staying at the same hotel, eating at the same restaurants, and having to be together at the arena, there would have been lots of opportunities for a norovirus to spread. Ugh! Wouldn't wish that on anyone.