2016-2017 State of U.S. Men Figure Skating

[Arriba627]

^^^Evidence of his huge potential. Wow! Just hoping he can work with Marina more and also stay injury free (please!).

 

[andromache]

^https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbKb3RVPVSw I don't believe someone who could skate a program like this at 15 has no artistry in him. It's just a matter of bringing it back and being able to combine it with his current tech content. This program is just stunning.

My biggest concern is that I really haven't seen an ICONIC or even great Marina Zoueva program for a singles skater, and I think most OGM hopefuls need a great vehicle. Yuzu's Parisienne Walkways was a revelation. Yulia Lipnitskaya had Schindler's List. Both of Yuna's 2010 programs.

Though it is possible that now that Marina is COACHING very prominent singles skaters that there will be more effort into their choreography, both for the sake of wanting her students to have results and because of time spent in the rink with her. I have no doubt Marina will be awesome at making her students better at interpreting music / doing choreography / etc., but the programs themselves might not be as gorgeous as what we see from Jeff Buttle, David Wilson, Shae-Lynne Bourne, and others. (I especially wish Gracie would work with Shae-Lynne.)

 

[noskates]

And I get very frustrated when some people act like those with the innate gift are somehow superior to those who are working their butts off to try and get there and get no credit for it.

Sorry, but I don't think that's true at all. There are skaters who get credit for trying who just aren't there yet - and maybe never will be. And it shows in competition after competition. The old saying of "you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear" is so true in figure skating. And so much of it depends on the music chosen and the choreography. I've always believed that skaters should stay in their niche and not try to be someone they're not just because that appears to be the way to go. There are so many music choices...........just find the right one to showcase the talent.

 

[karne]

I think one of the biggest improvements I've ever seen was in Josh Farris, with Give Me Love. It's not that he was bad before. He just went from being very...internalized, perhaps? To really communicating.

This was why a) I thought Libertango was a year too early and b) Stars on Ice was the best thing to happen to him. Jeff pushed him into that leading role in the Walker program and between that and To Build A Home he started to really project outwards. He just needed to grow up a little more, and have that push, and learn what he could be. And it wasn't just Give Me Love...he went from a heartbreakingly beautiful Schindler's List to the next season the rework of that program being soul-destroyingly beautiful and perfect.

I'm hoping we get to see the Pines of Rome program that Jeff Buttle choreographed. There's no way it's not another masterpiece.

Amen to that. I keep listening to it on Youtube and trying to imagine it and failing utterly, except that I know it would be perfect. Only, while I want to see it as the lost program, I would totally understand if Josh decided he'd outgrown it/lost the feeling for it, since it's been two years.

 

[skylark]

Fine. I suppose the Chen-crowners got what they wanted anyway: after four years of trashing the only US man who could do multi-quad longs, their man is now being hailed as some kind of hero bringing US men out of the dark ages. A shame that they can't just let everyone get excited about the jumps on their own, it had to involve chucking Max on the trash heap as hard and fast as possible.

Many of the same people that spent four years bashing on Max and proclaiming he shouldn't be on teams/podiums/etc because "it's not all about the quads!" were awful quick to jump to "it's all about the quads!" as soon as Chen and Zhou came along. And both of them get a lot of free passes for stuff that Max has been beaten up for all this time. The double standard is alive and well, but since it's only Max who's getting screwed, who cares, right?

Call me a Chen-crowner, I guess, because from what I can see, Nathan has taken US men's skating to another level. He's already been more consistent than Max in landing his quads in competition (I checked wiki for their competition placements to confirm this). I'm happy for Nathan and for the US. I think the exuberance for him is a great thing to see. Winning isn't everything; but it's something.

Nathan has this half-dancer/ half macho style that's appealing and interesting to me. He's much more than merely a jumper already; and he has plenty of room to develop his other qualities. That potential is exciting. I also think his quad jumps are beautiful technically, and he uses the music so well and generates emotional resonance with his jumps.

And I'm not abandoning my fan-girling great love for Jason and Adam. I love them both dearly, more than I do Nathan, because I've loved them longer.... And also because I think it's a GREAT THING for U.S. skating that we have these diverse talents who are all great skaters. Jason and Adam are artists on ice, and I'm very happy that we can celebrate such different styles and reward skaters for them, and recognize through the points system that the jumps aren't everything ... even though the scoring system favors jumping.

Max, Vincent, Josh now that he's coming back (yeah!), and Grant are more evidence that US fans value and love diversity in skating. Also Ross, Sean R., Jordan, Torgashev, Alexei K., so many. This is an exciting time.

 

[Mrs. P]

My biggest concern is that I really haven't seen an ICONIC or even great Marina Zoueva program for a singles skater, and I think most OGM hopefuls need a great vehicle. Yuzu's Parisienne Walkways was a revelation. Yulia Lipnitskaya had Schindler's List. Both of Yuna's 2010 programs.

Though it is possible that now that Marina is COACHING very prominent singles skaters that there will be more effort into their choreography, both for the sake of wanting her students to have results and because of time spent in the rink with her. I have no doubt Marina will be awesome at making her students better at interpreting music / doing choreography / etc., but the programs themselves might not be as gorgeous as what we see from Jeff Buttle, David Wilson, Shae-Lynne Bourne, and others. (I especially wish Gracie would work with Shae-Lynne.)

FWIW, I think her programs for Taka Kozuka were actually pretty good. Maybe not iconic, but at least really good. His 2011 Worlds free skate to Lizst's First Concerto (when he won silver) is choreographed by Zoueva.

I also really like Yulia's programs from her, especially the SP from last season to Elvis.

I do wonder what a Zoueva program would look like on Jason.

 

[ice coverage]

... I've always believed that skaters should stay in their niche and not try to be someone they're not just because that appears to be the way to go. ...

As someone who is very fond of Jason, I will note that Rohene seems to play a dominant role in determining who Jason is on the ice :yes:.

Rohene's strong influence has been working very well for Jason , but it could easily be said that Jason is trying to be someone who he is not. He is trying to be who Rohene envisions him to be.

... It still pains me to see someone get a medal after they've landed on their butts in the program. Something really wrong with that. Maybe they shouldn't get points for rotation.............

Sorry that Jason has put you through so much pain this season.
Apparently you believe that something is really wrong with all the medals going to Jason this season?
All four of his medals have been at competitions where he had at least one fall.

Silver at Lombardia with two falls.

Gold at the US Classic with two falls.

Silver at Skate America with one fall.

Bronze at US Nats with one fall.

---

I really do love Jason :luv17:. But I don't understand finger-pointing at others when Jason is excused for the exact same things.

 

[TontoK]

Apparently you believe that something is really wrong with all the medals going to Jason this season?
All four of his medals have been at competitions where he had at least one fall.

Silver at Lombardia with two falls.

Gold at the US Classic with two falls.

Silver at Skate America with one fall.

Bronze at US Nats with one fall.

---

I really do love Jason :luv17:. But I don't understand finger-pointing at others when Jason is excused for the exact same things.

Hold on just a darn minute.

If you're going to start bring FACTS into this discussion instead of just feelings, I'm not sure how to respond.

 

[el henry]

Sorry, my friends, now I need to chime in again.

Jason has been never been *excused* for the exact same things. Every fall has been a deduction. Unless I missed something. As Seven of Nine would say, the facts are uncoordinated.

I have not seen any finger pointing. I have seen the accurate statement that falling on rotated quads garners more points than a landed triple. Even in a "Five Toller" program. That pains me too. And if I see that type of statement being called "finger pointing", I will come in to say that it is not.

And if we are going to make posts of every skater's falls -- including Vincent's, Nathan's, Adam's, Andrew T.'s, etc etc -- this thread will never end.

It is late here now and I am going to bed. I'll come back with the "spectacular falls of all other American skaters" post tomorrow. Good night!

 

[ice coverage]

... Jason has been never been *excused* for the exact same things. ...

Methinks you did not really read my post.

In case it is too much trouble for you to go back and actually read what I wrote, I will give you a recap here:

noskates on multiple occasions has pointed her finger at Max and found fault with him for supposedly trying to be someone who is he not.
But she does not seem to find fault with Jason for trying to be someone who he is not (i.e., whoever Rohene wants him to be) -- so I would say that she is *excusing* Jason in that regard.

noskates stated a very specific opinion that it "pains" her when medals are awarded to skaters who have fallen at the competition at hand.  "Something really wrong with that," noskates said.
Jason's medals this season have made him four for four as a recurring example of a medalist who has fallen. 
Have Jason's four medals this season pained noskates? Does noskates feel that something really is wrong with Jason's four medals?
If (as I strongly suspect) her answers are No, then I would say that noskates is *excusing* Jason in that regard.

 

[musicfan80]

More thoughts on Boitano. A year before the Olympics, he essentially had his technical arsenal ready. The run-up year was spent in developing style and artistry. By the time he hit Calgary, he was almost an entirely different kind of skater.

Some of Sandra Bezic's choreography (Brian Boitano, Kristi Yamaguchi, Kurt Browning, Chen Lu) was just genius.

This was why a) I thought Libertango was a year too early and b) Stars on Ice was the best thing to happen to him. Jeff pushed him into that leading role in the Walker program and between that and To Build A Home he started to really project outwards. He just needed to grow up a little more, and have that push, and learn what he could be. And it wasn't just Give Me Love...he went from a heartbreakingly beautiful Schindler's List to the next season the rework of that program being soul-destroyingly beautiful and perfect..............

Amen to that. I keep listening to it on Youtube and trying to imagine it and failing utterly, except that I know it would be perfect. Only, while I want to see it as the lost program, I would totally understand if Josh decided he'd outgrown it/lost the feeling for it, since it's been two years.

I am divided on how I feel about Josh probably not going to get invited to do Stars on Ice this year, even if it's for a couple of shows. On one hand, he probably REALLY needs the money and the experience would benefit him performance wise. But then again, he does probably need the time to work on his skating - we have no idea how much work his spins, footwork, and skating skills need. And then there's his general fitness.

Assuming it will be this summer, it would have been 2 1/2 years since we last saw Josh do any program on the ice. He's probably a different person now and it wouldn't surprise me if he did got completely different programs.

 

[noskates]

Methinks you did not really read my post.

In case it is too much trouble for you to go back and actually read what I wrote, I will give you a recap here:

noskates on multiple occasions has pointed her finger at Max and found fault with him for supposedly trying to be someone who is he not.
But she does not seem to find fault with Jason for trying to be someone who he is not (i.e., whoever Rohene wants him to be) -- so I would say that she is *excusing* Jason in that regard.

noskates stated a very specific opinion that it "pains" her when medals are awarded to skaters who have fallen at the competition at hand.  "Something really wrong with that," noskates said.
Jason's medals this season have made him four for four as a recurring example of a medalist who has fallen. 
Have Jason's four medals this season pained noskates? Does noskates feel that something really is wrong with Jason's four medals?
If (as I strongly suspect) her answers are No, then I would say that noskates is *excusing* Jason in that regard.

Surprisingly I was NOT speaking of Max. Please don't put words in my mouth and don't just ASSUME!!! How many competitions has Hanyu fallen in and still received a medal? You always overreact to anything that could even remotely reference Max. Believe it or not, I really don't pay much attention to him and your public castigation of my post is rude. I get that he's your favorite. Enough already!! there are truly other skaters out there.

 

[ice coverage]

Surprisingly I was NOT speaking of Max. Please don't put words in my mouth and don't just ASSUME!!! How many competitions has Hanyu fallen in and still received a medal? You always overreact to anything that could even remotely reference Max. Believe it or not, I really don't pay much attention to him and your public castigation of my post is rude. ...

LOL, you are wrong to assume that I was speaking of Max regarding medals and falls.

So I will repeat your words back to you: "Please don't put words in my mouth and don't just ASSUME!!!"

By explicitly referencing Hanyu, you have just proven my point of your finger-pointing at other skaters, but not at Jason.

You have a problem with Hanyu receiving a medal when he has fallen at the competition.

So if you were not excusing Jason from the negativity that you are expressing about Hanyu, then your comment of "something really wrong with that" would apply to Jason's four medals this season as well.

I don't think it is "rude" for me to point out your inconsistency.
And since when does pointing out an inconsistency = overreacting?? (Again, I did not think you were talking about Max and medals. I never said anything about Max and medals and falls.)

As a fan of Jason, I do not want him to be criticized for receiving medals at competitions where he has fallen. But if Hanyu deserves such criticism from you or anyone else, then Jason deserves the same criticism.
(Lest anyone wonder: I myself have never believed or said that it is wrong for Hanyu or Jason or anyone else to receive a medal when he has fallen at a competition.)

---

For anyone in this thread who has any affection for Max, today is his 25th birthday. Happy Birthday, Max .

 

[noskates]

Yeah - twist it anyway you want.

 

[ice coverage]

p.s. Lest anyone wonder, I do not even particularly like Hanyu, although I respect him and do not dislike him.

I like Jason :luv17: far more than I like Hanyu.

My comments above are not about running to Hanyu's defense. I am most definitely not one to run to Hanyu's defense on any front.

But fair is fair.

 

[Icey]

Well, I can't go a whole day without contributing something to this post, can I? Like potato chips...

I am going to get pushback for this, but here goes (and since when has that ever stopped me)

Believe it or not, I am not the World's biggest Jason uber. I *am* the World's biggest Toller uber. I measure skaters against that standard: how many "Tollers" does that skater earn? I drifted away from watching skating consistently at the tail end of nineties, beginning of 2000's. I saw no Tollers.

There I was, one January, in 2014, just skimming the TV. Skating, what the heck. And then, a kid skating, who I had never heard of or ever seen before, earning five Tollers. I thought, I need to know more..... and because of that kid, I learned all about the other American men and here I am wasting time on skating boards

When he is *on*, Jason is five (out of five) Tollers. That is a rare gift and something you don't "learn". I am sorry, Nathan Chen on his best day with his SP this year, is maybe two Tollers. Maybe. He doesn't need more than two Tollers with all his jumps, but I am not going to pretend or accept that he has more just because he can jump.

And for those who say, well Nathan is young, and can learn, well I hope so. But another youngster, Deniss V. is four Tollers, verging on five. Deniss has the gift.

Vincent Zhou: no Tollers yet.

Maybe I'm living in the past. Hey, I'm married to a classics professor, it comes naturally. but despite being a red blooded American, medals, medals, medals, records, records, records are not my thing. Not at the expense of "Tollers"

How did you miss Shawn Sawyer of Canada who was, in fact, mentored by Toller.?

 

[Mrs. P]

How did you miss Shawn Sawyer of Canada who was, in fact, mentored by Toller.?

Shawn Sawyer may have come along during El Henry's hiatus. Sorry to hijack the thread a bit, but Shawn Sawyer is awesome.

 

[el henry]

How did you miss Shawn Sawyer of Canada who was, in fact, mentored by Toller.?

Mrs. P is right, it was during the "interregnum". In fact, when I first "came back", I remember posters even then who wanted to dismiss Jason saying "Oh, he's just another Shawn Sawyer". And I had to ask who Shawn Sawyer was and what that meant. And then I went to see some videos because I wanted to see the skater who reminded anyone of Jason. But I don't feel qualified to speak because I didn't see him compete.

And sadly, as an American I did not always have the benefit of Toller's commentary on then-current skaters. Most unfortunate. :sad21:

 

[chuckm]

Maxim Naumov won the Challenge Cup Advanced Novice event.

 

[Tavi...]

So happy to report that Jordan Moeller took silver at the Challenge Cup - not perfect, but for his first international competition back after what could have been a career-ending injury: great job, Jordan!