Has the CoP killed the 3T/3T and 3Lo/3Lo combos?

[Mathman]

To maximize the points under the new judging system, ladies must now do two Lutz's and two flips (one of each in combination). Thus you can't do two toe loops or two loops, either as part of a combination or solo.

At 2007 worlds, sure enough, the only successful triple-triple combos landed were 3Lz+3Lo (Ando), 3F+3Lo (Asada) and 3F+3T (Kim). Meissner also attempted both Lutz and flip combos, but unsuccessfully. Gedevanishvilli tried 3F+3T, but the second jump was downgraded.

The only retro skaters who tried 3T+3T were Sokolova (she doubled the first jump) and Gimazetdinova (hop in between, scored as a sequence).

To illustrate the point, here is Michelle Kwan's standard jump layout (she landed her triple toe/triple toe combination in at least one major competition every year for eight straight years -- a record?)

3 Lo = 5.0
3T+3T = 8.0
3Lz+2T = 7.3
3S = 4.5
3F = 5.5
2A = 3.3
3Lz = 6.0

Seven triples, including a triple/triple. Total CoP base points, 39.6.

Here is the CoP-friendly version of the same program:

3Lo = 5.0
3F+2T = 6.8
3Lz+2T = 7.3
3S = 4.5
3F = 5.5
2A+2T+2Lo = 6.1
3Lz = 6.0

Six triples, no triple/triple. Total CoP points, 41.2.

 

[satorare]

3T+3T is basically useless in FS.
Rochette used to do 3T-3T but she stopped.
It's better to do 3Lz and 3F twice for earning points.
The only use is as a point getting tool in SP for skaters who can't do 3Lz or 3F.

3Lo+3Lo is different. It's very difficult and rare.
I think the only skater who can do now is Mao.
If successfully done, the judges will reward by a PCS raise.

 

[tagmats]

If successfully done, the judges will reward by a PCS raise.

I dont think so.
satorare,your opinions are too one-sided.:indiff:

 

[satorare]

Suppose a skater capable of a 3Lo+3Lo combo has two plans

Plan A
3Lz+2Lo
3F
3Lo
3F+2Lo*
3Lz*
3S*
2A+3T*
BV = 45.3

Plan B
3Lo+3Lo
3Lz+2Lo
3F
3T*
3Lz*
3S*
2A+2T*
BV = 44.0

The plan A is better in terms of the base-values.
But the judges will give higher PCS for the plan B,
because the latter is more "exciting" and "challenging".

Same thing wont happen for 3T-3T.

 

[satorare]

I just checked who did 3T-3T in this season

GLEBOVA -- JGP Hungary SP & FS, EURO SP, JW SP, WC SP
SUIZU -- JGP Hague SP, JGPF SP, JW SP
DREI -- Skate Canada SP & FS
CALVEZ -- TEB SP, EURO SP
ZUKOWSKI -- TEB SP

By any means, 3T-3T is not an attractive choice for the TOP skaters, especially in FS.

 

[gio]

Combos aren't rewarded properly in COP. The same happens if you do a jump sequence, because you earn less points than if you do the jump as a solo.
COP gives little choice. If you want to win you have to do a predefined program. No space for innovative skaters, or skaters who wants to show something different.

 

[Tinymavy15]

i would love to see mao or somebody do a triple loop triple loop combo. they are so exciting to watch... i loved seeing tara whip them off. What is the base value for a 3 loop/3 loop compared with a 3 lutz, 3 toe? can't be that much lower. I wouold love to see it in the short. Short programs are looking so much allike a lutz combo, a triple flip, a doule axel.

 

[hockeyfan228]

I don't remember all that many skaters doing 3T/3T under 6.0, so to say that CoP has killed the combination is odd to me. The 3/3 ladies in the early 90's, were doing 3Lz/3T. Lipinski did 3Lo/3Lo -- who else? She famously cried when she heard that Kwan was practicing the combination that Kwan had stolen "her" combination. Slutskaya and Hughes did 3Lz (or 3Flz)/3T and 3Sa/3Lo.

3T/3T is also a viable combination in the SP, with a base of 8 pts, compared to 3Lz/2T, which is a base of 7.8, allowing the 3T/3T skater to do a solo 3Lz vs. a solo 3F, for another .5, the real strategic advantage, not to mention the "wow" factor that could creep into PCS. 3T/3T has never been competitive with 3Sa/3Lo, 3Lz/3T, or 3F/3T, quality being equal.

 

[Mathman]

What is the base value for a 3 loop/3 loop compared with a 3 lutz, 3 toe? can't be that much lower.

They're both the same (10 points). But the problem in the long program is that you can only repeat two jumps. If you do a 3Lo/3Lo, then you can't also do two Lutzes and two flips. And you can't do another 3Lo solo or another combination that ends with a 3Lo.

I remember in the 2005 world championship Irina Sluskaya did 3Lz+3Lo, then solo 3Lo, then she messed up and did 3Lo+2Lo. Since she had already done two 3Lo's, she got zero credit for the 3Lo in her second combination, only a 1.5 for the double jump.

 

[Mathman]

I don't remember all that many skaters doing 3T/3T under 6.0, so to say that CoP has killed the combination is odd to me.

When Michelle did it, sometimes I got the impression that she was saying, "There! -- see? -- I did a triple/triple. Now get off my case!"

 

[Mathman]

The plan A is better in terms of the base-values. But the judges will give higher PCS for the plan B, because the latter is more "exciting" and "challenging".

I agree. (Although the 2A+3T in plan A is pretty cool, too.)

Same thing won't happen for 3T-3T.

Under 6.0 judging I had the feeling that a skater did get some credit for doing a triple-triple of any kind. If 3T+3T is all you can do, it's better than nothing. But under CoP you give away too many points, even if the judges give you credit in the PCSs for at least being better than no triple-triple at all.

I am surprised by Hockeyfan's post that not many skaters did a 3T-3T (was Michelle the only one?) in the pre-CoP era. Again, something is better than nothing. Michelle's 3T-3T won her both the 2000 and the 2001 world championships.

 

[hockeyfan228]

Debbie Thomas and Nancy Kerrigan did 3T/3T, no? Rochette gave it a shot, and there were a couple of European skaters who did. (I think one of the lower-ranked French women gave it a shot.) Cohen was trying for 3Lz/3T for a while, including during the SLC Olympics, but I don't remember a 3T/3T from her, Sato, Lipinski, Butyrskaya, Sokolova, Kostner, Arakawa, Ando or other World medal winners. Slutskaya, Sokolova, Kostner, Ando, and Arakawa went for 3Lz/3T or 3Lo combos, and Kostner's meal ticket is 3F/3T.

I agree about Kwan -- it was as if she was saying, leave it alone already.

 

[zephyrskates]

Michelle's 3T-3T won her both the 2000 and the 2001 world championships.

that is just an overstatement. her 3T-3T did help her win those said world championships, but they weren't the sole reason she won.

 

[gio]

I remember those pre-COP skaters with a triple toe/triple toe

Midori Ito
Debi Thomas
Alisa Drei
Kristina Czako
Diana Poth
Sabina Wojtala

 

[Mathman]

that is just an overstatement. her 3T-3T did help her win those said world championships, but they weren't the sole reason she won.

Not too much of an overstatement, I think. At 2001 Worlds, suppose that everything had gone exactly the same, except that Michelle doubled the second jump of her 3T/3T combination. Irina did a six triple performance including a 3S+3Lo+2T combo (the first ever). Michelle did seven triples, but without the triple toe/triple toe she would have only had six. Also, Irina was in the lead after the short program and had beaten Michelle twice already that year, at Skate Canada and at the Grand Prix Finals.

True, the quality of Irina's jumps was not up to the level of Michelle's in that contest (the middle jump of her combo was underrotated and almost all of her jump landings lacked flow). And IMHO Michelle was far superior in presentation skills -- but for whatever reason the judging panels did not necessarily agree. In fact, even with a seven triple performance by Michelle, two of the judges went with Irina overall. I have very little doubt that three more would have joined them if Michelle had not delivered on the 3T/3T.

But the real reason why Michelle deserved to win -- that was the year that the heel came off her boot in the warm-up just before she had to skate in the qualifying round. With only seconds to spare, her dad nailed it back on the best way he could with materials at hand. Michelle, skating off balance with one boot heel longer than the other, nailed all seven of her triple jumps (and a double Axel), including a triple/triple, winning her qualifying group and setting up the showdown with Slutskaya. Rock on, babe!

 

[Tinymavy15]

When Michelle did it, sometimes I got the impression that she was saying, "There! -- see? -- I did a triple/triple. Now get off my case!"

i know. she never really made it a consistant part of her programs and never really tried it at nationals or worlds.

 

[mskater93]

I don't remember all that many skaters doing 3T/3T under 6.0, so to say that CoP has killed the combination is odd to me. The 3/3 ladies in the early 90's, were doing 3Lz/3T. Lipinski did 3Lo/3Lo -- who else? She famously cried when she heard that Kwan was practicing the combination that Kwan had stolen "her" combination. Slutskaya and Hughes did 3Lz (or 3Flz)/3T and 3Sa/3Lo.

3T/3T is also a viable combination in the SP, with a base of 8 pts, compared to 3Lz/2T, which is a base of 7.8, allowing the 3T/3T skater to do a solo 3Lz vs. a solo 3F, for another .5, the real strategic advantage, not to mention the "wow" factor that could creep into PCS. 3T/3T has never been competitive with 3Sa/3Lo, 3Lz/3T, or 3F/3T, quality being equal.

Hughes never did 3Lu/3T. She did 3S/3Lo and 3T/3Lo

 

[gsrossano]

3Lo+3Lo is different. It's very difficult and rare.
I think the only skater who can do now is Mao.
If successfully done, the judges will reward by a PCS raise.

Raising the PC scores because the jumps are more difficult is incorrect use of the PCs. Judges who know what the PCs are about will not do it. Judges who don't know what they are doing might.

The real problem with the 3Lo+3Lo value is that IJS does not reward the difficulty of combinations correctly. The value of a combo should not be NOT be decided by just the sum of its parts.

 

[Mathman]

i know. she never really made it a consistant part of her programs and never really tried it at nationals or worlds.

Oh, I wouldn't say that. Not at all. Michelle did a triple-triple at

1995 Skate America
1996 Championship series Final (precursor of the Grand prix)
1997 Championship Series
1997 Worlds
1999 U.S. Nationals
1999 Skate America
2000 Worlds
2001 Grand Prix Finals
2001 Worlds Qualifying Round
2001 Worlds LP
2002 Worlds Qualifying

 

[Mathman]

Raising the PC scores because the jumps are more difficult is incorrect use of the PCs. Judges who know what the PCs are about will not do it. Judges who don't know what they are doing might.

But even for conscientious and knowledgeable judges, I think a WOW element like a 3Lo+3Lo should count in execution/performance -- maybe even in choreography and interpretation, if it puctuated the music and fit into the flow of the program.

Irina Slutskaya's 2005 Worlds performance, for instance, really had little but jumps (and a few Biellmann's), but she got sky-high PCSs across the board -- quite correctly, IMHO, for that rock 'em, sock 'em show.