Does Kimmie need the triple Axel?

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Yes it did but I think it will come back in time. YuNa Kim is the guiding light as far as presentation, musicality and artistry are concerned. She needs to work on her spirals of course and with her back problems this could hinder her. Mao demonstrated in her gorgeous SP this past season that with the right music and choreography she is capable of teh total package also.

I agree it will come back because the casual fans won't come back with only a 3A.as the sole winning move. When? Only when the ISU wakes up to the fact that there is music involved in figure skating. Otherwise take out the music and we can have a jumping contest. Nothing wrong with that. They do it in Diving and get the best Diver in the World every time.

I agree with Mao's whole package as well as several other skaters. Is it as good as the others? or is it the 3A? It's as cute as Oksana's was. If cute little numbers is how to judge figure skating, then I see Mao as untouchable. YuNa is so much more sophisticated, but that doesn't sell. Does it? Only the 3A sells. Am I correct?

JOe

 

[SeaniBu]

. YuNa is so much more sophisticated, but that doesn't sell. Does it? Only the 3A sells. Am I correct?

You might be right.

Kimmie needs it as of now, MMs breakdown to start the thread says a lot factually. If she can land and have a smoother edge out with consistency, keep on this "connection with the audience" being improved - which she has made good improvement IMO - she will be in that top ladies mix for sometime to come. JMO

 

[z4mboni]

If cute little numbers is how to judge figure skating, then I see Mao as untouchable.

If Nocturne can be described as "cute little number"... Even Czardas does not particularly belong in the "cute" category. Sassy, full of energy - yes, but it wasn't any more cute than Katarina Witt's Czardas.

YuNa is so much more sophisticated, but that doesn't sell. Does it? Only the 3A sells. Am I correct?

Are we talking about the same YuNa? Current GPF champion, the holder of the record PB for a short program, scoring very highly even with two falls and no 3L? If so, no, you are not correct. Judges love YuNa and do not hesitate to give her high scores. She didn't score as high at the beginning of the season, but that was to be expected - she was a new skater on the block. Now she is very much the contender for the gold.
Even Mao said she needs to improve in order to continue to be competetive with YuNa, and for that reason she resumed her ballet training.

 

[Zuranthium]

I don't think "the whole package" is gone at all.

I do think the judges are a bit off with determining Program Component scores, though. Mao Asada's LP at Worlds scored a little higher on the Components than Arakawa and Cohen at the Olympics. That's just...NO.

~Z

 

[tagmats]

I don't think "the whole package" is gone at all.

I do think the judges are a bit off with determining Program Component scores, though. Mao Asada's LP at Worlds scored a little higher on the Components than Arakawa and Cohen at the Olympics. That's just...NO.

~Z

Judges gave huge points to YuNa who skated and fell 2 times just before Mao.
So,the judges came to have to give Mao the high score too.



Well,I think when Kimmie lands 3F-3L,3Lz-3L(3T?) and 3ax,she will be World Champion again.
She can do it!:agree:

 

[Zuranthium]

Judges gave huge points to YuNa who skated and fell 2 times just before Mao.
So,the judges came to have to give Mao the high score too.

Ah, but see, that's the point.

Just because someone skates clean, it doesn't mean their program or performance level was better than someone who fell twice.

~Z

 

[dlarry1]

I agree about Mao and Kim. Mao's jumping has overshadowed the other aspects of her skating, but she really does not have any weaknesses. The future is in good hands.

I just wish pro skating could come back somehow. Let the 16-year-old leapers win their Olympic medals, then move up to mastery of the art form.

I couldn't agree more. I was thinking back to the only other "triple axel battle" that I can remember, which was Tanya and Midori. In my mind, Tanya was kinda like Mao, in that if the 3A didn't happen, the program was often a goner. But Midori, on the other hand, wow. Talk about a jumper. Even when she didn't land the 3A, everything else was usually huge and complete.

OTT: anyone who's looked at all of the "splat" videos on YouTube, have you seen the one where Midori is too close and goes complete through (over?) the boards and off the ice, then dashes back with a smile on her face? Priceless...

 

[Tinymavy15]

I myslef stated many times during the season how much Kimmie talked about putting in the triple axel and never did it. She always said in interview how much she was prcticing it and that it was pretty consistant. I think that she pretty much blew away her world medal without it. Unlike Mao or Yu-na, kimmie does not have the artistry or diffficulty in her spiral sequence, spins. While the asian wonders can get away without the axel, kimmie can not. If she is going to comepete with the best in the world, she must out jump them. She can not out chreogrph them. Kimmie is lucky to have gotten a handle on this jump. She can't lose it when it counts.

 

[R.D.]

She needs to get comfortable with doing it in competition. I think she's only attempted it twice...at 05 Nats (successfully) and at 06 TEB (unsuccessfully).

I still think she needs to get those 3-3's back. Remember that at worlds she botched one of the 3-3's. I don't know how many points she lost as a result of that, but she better watch out because even if she goes all out, Asada will attempt to outjump her.

 

[gio]

So much hype on Mao's 3A. I believe she has reached her jump peak, and predict she will gradually lose this jump. I won't be suprised to see Mao's gradual demise over the next few years since she has no 3T or 3S for plan B.

And how do you know that?
She is a hard working person, very motivated. I'm sure she will regain the 3toe and 3sal. The 3toe is almost there. She is also trying to fix the 3lutz.

 

[Mathman]

Amusingly enough, in the media I watch/read the skaters and the commentators seem to be of opinion that CoP is /forcing/ skaters to be whole packages.

I agree, that's very amusing. I think the news media are just repeating what the ISU is telling them.

About the "total package," what I see happening is that the definition of what this comprises will change / is changing.

Under the CoP I don't think we will be seeing any more Peggy Fleming layback spins (1.2 points), or Dorothy Hamill scratch spins (1.2 points), or Nicole Bobek spirals (1.8 points), or Brian Boitano spread eagles (0 points), or Shizuka Arakawa Ina Bauers (0 points) or Sasha Cohen Russian split jumps (0 points).

A skater who does a layback like Peggy Fleming and a scratch spin like Dorothy Hamill and a spiral like Nicole Bobek and a spread eagle like Brian Bointano and an Ina Bauer like Shizuka Arakawa and a Russian split jump like Sasha Cohen has earned a total of 4.2 points. She just lost to the skater who did one triple Salchow (4.5 points) and went home.

Instead, the young skaters who are trying to be the CoP version of the complete package are working on a level four spiral which has 3 spiral positions with change of foot, forward and backward, inside and outside;1 difficult variation of position; a second difficult variation of position on a different foot than the first one; change of edge in a spiral (3 seconds hold before and after the change); unsupported change of free leg position or direction of skating maintaining the spiral (3 seconds before and after the change; and free leg in total split position, one or both arms hold possible.

That skaters can do this is remarkable, even astonishing. Throw in a CoP-friendly spin (1 difficult variation; second difficult variation on a different foot; difficult change of foot; backward entrance or variation of flying entrance; spinning on both edges; both directions immediately following each other; at least 8 revolutions without any changes in position/variation and edge; 1 change of position (counts twice if repeated on another foot)) -- throw that in, and you are on your way to a "well-balanced program," CoP style.

This is not a criticism of the new judging system, and certainly not of the young skaters who must learn how to maximize their points under it. I just think that, as the sport evolves we will have to change our minds about what the "complete package" means. :yes:

 

[gio]

I agree, that's very amusing. I think the news media are just repeating what the ISU is telling them.

About the "total package," what I see happening is that the definition of what this comprises will change / is changing.

Under the CoP I don't think we will be seeing any more Peggy Fleming layback spins (1.2 points), or Dorothy Hamill scratch spins (1.2 points), or Nicole Bobek spirals (1.8 points), or Brian Boitano spread eagles (0 points), or Shizuka Arakawa Ina Bauers (0 points) or Sasha Cohen Russian split jumps (0 points).

I'm worried how will COP change FS in the long term.

 

[Mathman]

PS. IMHO there really is a sea change in the sport under the NJS.

In the old system you won the gold medal by impressing the judges. In the new, you win by getting the most points. This is a huge psychological difference for skaters, judges, officials, coaches and fans to embrace.

 

[Zuranthium]

I agree, that's very amusing. I think the news media are just repeating what the ISU is telling them.

About the "total package," what I see happening is that the definition of what this comprises will change / is changing.

Under the CoP I don't think we will be seeing any more Peggy Fleming layback spins (1.2 points), or Dorothy Hamill scratch spins (1.2 points), or Nicole Bobek spirals (1.8 points), or Brian Boitano spread eagles (0 points), or Shizuka Arakawa Ina Bauers (0 points) or Sasha Cohen Russian split jumps (0 points).

A skater who does a layback like Peggy Fleming and a scratch spin like Dorothy Hamill and a spiral like Nicole Bobek and a spread eagle like Brian Bointano and an Ina Bauer like Shizuka Arakawa and a Russian split jump like Sasha Cohen has earned a total of 4.2 points. She just lost to the skater who did one triple Salchow (4.5 points) and went home.

Doing a well-placed Ina Bauer adds to the Program Component scores across the board. Moves in the Field definitely still have value, it's just not a defined value like the technical elements. Simplistic spins are perhaps out the window, however skaters who are spending time doing all of the complex spins and not doing them well should be losing points on their performance/choreography/interpretation marks. That's certainly how I would mark if I was a judge. A simple Layback that's really well done should be worth more overall than a poor L4 spin because you're getting +GOE points on the layback and improving your program by using it.

~Z

 

[morninglight]

If Mao does 3A twice and Miki might do a quad, then Kimmie may need a 3A to be a World Champ again. It would be really nice if Kimmie does it in competitions this season.

And don't forget about Carolina. I feel that she is going to have a wonderful season

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think once the chestnut (combo jump) is executed, everything will fall into place for the whole package. How high that whole package will be scored will be shown in the judges scores. It seems it is in accordance with a WOW jump(s).

Others without a chestnut to show will be judged without the same level as those who do.

The top skaters MUST give the judges a chestnut. To Joubert, I say that you are lost without your jumps. You will be down in the dumps, you will be scraping bottom, you will be wallowing in the mire of the zamboni, you will be branded incorrigible.

Joe

 

[dancindiva03]

And don't forget about Carolina. I feel that she is going to have a wonderful season

I hope she does! She is such a gorgeous skater, really one of the few total packages out there. If she can just get her head together and land those beautiful jumps of hers, she could be a World Champ many times over.

 

[morninglight]

I hope she does! She is such a gorgeous skater, really one of the few total packages out there. If she can just get her head together and land those beautiful jumps of hers, she could be a World Champ many times over.

I agree. Perhaps if she gains more consistency in her jumps, she would have great potential to become a World Champ I hope that she has totally recovered from any injuries and is doing well! I wonder if she is going to work with Ms. Lori Nichol again. Her elegant presentation matched so well with Ms. Nichol's choreo. Especially the SP program and costume were a great total package for her (I especially loved the SP costume she wore in the European Championship).

 

[Mysticchic]

I decided to like Kimmie a few years ago for doing the 3A, but now she doesn't do them...that was the only thing I think sets her apart.

 

[R.D.]

patience, fans. she will do one...eventually.

Anything we try to say now on that topic is simply speculation...but she knows now that she needs to step it up to be competitive now. Time will tell whether she can re-establish herself or whether she simply took advantage of an unusually weak field at Worlds and won with a freakishly unexpected solid FS.