2021 Worlds: Men's FS "Thoughts and Observations"

[lurkz2]

Yeah, we have to agree to disagree here. I never claimed that Mikhail is a ballet dancer though to me he is a very close, after all one cannot move on ice the same way as on hard surface, it has its advantages and its limitations too. If you watch closely the opening of White Crow there is that tension you are talking about and it did not come easy to him, here is a short film on how the program was made if you are interested:

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One can see how much of hard work went into it. Mishin & Mikhail also went to the Vaganova Academy to meet Nikolay Tsiskaridze and see the museum and all the things Nureyev there:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CGDKWr-J2lG/

Note: watch Mikhail feet here in that photo

Yeah it's there in the first part of yr video but I didn't see it in the Stockholm FS I watched.

Agree to disagree, while Nathan may have a hunchier, maybe less ideal, natural physique that balletic tension in the torso was there all throughout his FS at Stockholm. That's where his yrs of ballet training comes in, it is hard work.

I wasn't even talking of movement just stance and carriage of body. And Nathan has more of the balletic turnout while skating too.

 

[1111bm]

...in particular the part where they discuss how both Hanyu and Nathan tend to limit their overall approach to set themes in Hanyu's case, and to set patterns in Nathan's case. [...]
While Nathan incorporates interesting stylistic elements and he's also skilled musically, the way he lays out and puts together his programs is surely managed around performing quads in specific locations on the ice, which is likely important to maintain efficiency and consistency.

I also saw the TSL segment about Nathan's tendency to place jumps in the same place in his LP. However, I'm not so sure that's a weakness.

I get what they (and Duhamel) mean when they talk about the choreographic limitations, but it also allows him to switch jumps out. As we've seen over the past seasons, that lets him experiment with jump layouts - swapping jumps, leaving them out, adding them in - until he has a product he's confident with.

It's true that he has a fixed pattern for setting up most of his quads, so he ends up jumping most of them (usually 3-4 of his quads) in the same spot, either at one side of the rink or the other (so not literally the same spot, since skaters can obviously mirror the pattern along the medial axis of the rink).

But isn't that true for many (most?) skaters and their most difficult jumping passes?

I'm obviously not that familiar with all the programs of this or past seasons, but when I think of those men who I follow more closely or where I happened to notice it:

Most skaters set up their difficult jumps in a way, where they travel down the long side of the rink (on a straight line down the middle, a diagonal, a long curve or an S-curve) and end up jumping them on one of the short ends of the rink (in one of the corners or the middle).
Since some skaters prefer a circular pattern for their 4Lo and 4S, these are the quads that can often be seen jumped in the middle of the rink.

Yuzuru jumps his 4Lo + 4S on the same S-curve, and his 4T + 4Lz on a straight line down the rink (he has also used more of a diagonal line for his 4T in past FSs and still does so in his SPs).
And he has also stuck to those patterns for many seasons now, usually putting 4Lo + 4S in the beginning and doing his 4Ts in the second half of the program.
And even though he loves to 'sprinkle in' a variety of transitions and change it up in each program, he's been peculiarly repeating the besti squat in-between his first two jumping passes in Seimei, Origin and Heaven & Earth. So it definitely seems like the familiarity of that sequence helps him with the first two jumping passes (probably what TSL meant by 'set themes' since he also always repeats his hydroblade and ina bauer in all of his choreo sequences, I assume because that's his comfort zone and he can just fall back on those familiar moves in the end of the program when he's already tired).

Boyang does his 4Ts + 4Lzs on the same straight line down the long side of the rink. He has different patterns (on a curve or circular) for his 4S + 4Lo though, that I'm not as familiar with.

Han Yan does two 3Fs (on a straight line down the long side of the rink) and two 3Lzs (on a slightly more diagonal pattern down the long side of the rink), so he ends up jumping those four jumps pretty much in the same spot on either one of the short ends of the rink.

Shoma jumps his 4F on an anti-clockwise diagonal, his 3A on a clockwise diagonal and he does both for his 4T. Not sure if he was taught these patterns intentionally or not, but it cleverly adds variety since this way he lands his jumps in opposite corners, even though all of them follow a diagonal line down the rink.
His 4S is jumped on a long (anti-clockwise) curve, allowing him to 'fill' another corner of the rink.

Misha (whose FS TSL adores) jumps both his 4Ts + 3As on pretty much the same long curve in his FS and therefore also 'in the same spot'. Although he needs a shorter preparation time for his 3A, so he has moved it a bit more to the middle of the rink over the course of the season.
His 4S has a different entry and is on a circular pattern, this luckily allows him to put it in the middle of the rink.
And regarding strategising and using familiar elements that increase consistency, pretty sure that is the reason why he's been doing the exact same step sequence in both SP and FS this season (obviously differently interpreted to match the style and music of the program, and skillfully so). He will for sure get a different one in his new SP for the Olympic season, since he's keeping his FS and is already very familiar with its step sequence, allowing for more capacities to practice a new one.

Nathan only does his 4Lz on a straight line, all of his other quads, 4T + 4F + 4S (+ 4Lo), are on an S-curve with a variation where he can also set them up on a simple long curve (without crossing the rink on a diagonal).
And this is part of 'the problem'. Contrary to many others, he doesn't do his 4T on a straight or diagonal line, nor does he do his 4S on a circular pattern. This alone reduces variety. Not sure if this was part of Raf's strategy to equalise all jump patterns or if this was simply what happened to work best for Nathan, just as I don't know whether other skaters didn't also simply opt for whichever patterns they were most comfortable with.

Obviously there's more freedom in terms of patterns with the easier jumps that need less set-up time, in the case of multi-quadsters this would be all the triples.
But the thing is, unlike almost all other skaters, Nathan doesn't do a lot of triples. And even when he reduces the quads to 3-4 in one program, he usually treats his triples as placeholders for quads (for later in the season for instance), so he will still use his regular quad pattern even when he doesn't need it to set up a triple.
This means that he's usually only left with two jumping passes per free skate, that can be placed more freely.

In the case of his Philip Glass program I will say, that they failed to use this opportunity, since they could've put the 3Lz and 3A more in the middle of the rink for instance. They did this better in some of his other free skates.

 

[eppen]

It's true that he has a fixed pattern for setting up most of his quads, so he ends up jumping most of them in the same spot, either at one side of the rink or the other (so not literally the same spot, since skaters can obviously mirror the pattern along the medial axis of the rink).

But isn't that true for many (most?) skaters and their most difficult jumping passes?

The whole post is very true. Thanks for writing also my thoughts!

I actually had to listen to that episode of TSL. I am not quite sure if their "patterns" meant exactly the jump patterns (because SURELY even those guys are aware of the fixedness of them?). I think it alluded perhaps more to how the programs were laid out and the emotional arc in it.

But that is also something both Hanyu and Chen are doing very similarly for the most part. During the jumping passes (particularly the first big jumps) not much else goes on and the performance is dedicated to steps and choreo sequences. These are left to the end of the program so that the immediate memory is of strong emotional content and that erases the remaining relative non-performance amd emphasis on jumps.

Hanyu's Hope & Legacy was applauded by many for its minimalistic and introverted interpretation IIRC and putting down now Nathan's Glass by arguing that its interpretation was minimalistic and introverted seems, ahem, a bit funny. I think the choreo sequence in Glass was in fact a superb ending to the sombre and solemn program, a release needed also by the viewer.

E

 

[1111bm]

...but honestly only a very dedicated fan can see the above.

If you choose to see something which is not there that's fine but you won't convince other people.

...and his toes not pointed at all, kinda painfully so -he could rival Yuna Kim in that regard, and his feet not turned out...

You might not be aware of it, but many of Nathan's fans became his fans precisely because they noticed and enjoyed his lines and carriage, not the other way around (this includes his feet, turn-out, straight legs, but also a lot of it is his arms and hands).
I'm also pretty sure I've seen posters who are not his fans specifically remark on this.

Now I don't know what's 'balletic' or not, all I know is what looks effortlessly graceful and aesthetically pleasing to me, without giving me the impression that the skater is trying hard to look this way.
(I also find it hilarious how many seem to forget that Nathan did an actual ballet-inspired SP in his first senior season, where he adjusted his body language to convey the image of a ballet dancer, which was quite a remarkable contrast to his presentation of the different styles of his other SPs that followed)

I think those who place a lot of emphasis on a very classic posture with a straight back, with the shoulders back, might not be able to see past this, and yes Nathan does have a tendency to hunch his shoulders/doesn't have a 'classic' straight shoulder line (not sure how much of it is his build and how much is a bad habit).
Personally I think it looks more dynamic, but also more organic and natural when skaters assume a more relaxed, athletic posture, as long as they still keep a certain subtle tension in their upper body. But that comes down to personal preference.

It is also funny you should put Nathan on the same level as Yuna, because her feet are the one thing that bugs me to no end whenever I watch her skate, same with Yuzuru actually. It is one big reason why I fell for Nathan's skating. His Nemesis SP is pretty much build on footwork that requires pointed toes!

Maybe you should consider, that you are in fact the one who doesn't see 'something that is actually there'...

 

[Olympic]

Someone noted Nathan hunches but I think the problem is something I noted earlier: He appears to hunch but he drops his arms when prepping for a difficult jumping pass and it looks like a hunch. Yet, if you look at his body generally during the program, his carriage position is upright and strong. I think if he held his arms out during the cross overs he would improve his look (Worth pointing out there is little to improve upon)

 

[oly2018]

I also saw the TSL segment about Nathan's tendency to place jumps in the same place in his LP. However, I'm not so sure that's a weakness.

I get what they (and Duhamel) mean when they talk about the choreographic limitations, but it also allows him to switch jumps out. As we've seen over the past seasons, that lets him experiment with jump layouts - swapping jumps, leaving them out, adding them in - until he has a product he's confident with.

I don't enjoy the uncertainty in the process, but it's really hard to argue with the final results. "Some of his jumping passes are in the same place" is a weak criticism when he's scoring 220+ and winning major competitions by 30 points.

This is a good point. I don't see it as much of a weakness either. Nathan has become one of the most consistent skaters of all time and I would bet it has a lot to do with maintaining similar patterns. It's also seems kind of common for most skaters...

 

[shine]

If you choose to see something which is not there that's fine but you won't convince other people.

I think that's you. Nathan has faults, but unpointed toes is not one of them.

 

[TontoK]

This is a good point. I don't see it as much of a weakness either. Nathan has become one of the most consistent skaters of all time and I would bet it has a lot to do with maintaining similar patterns. It's also seems kind of common for most skaters...

Exactly. I'm not even sure "weakness" is the correct word. It's more of a strategic choice.

What I mean is that he and his team appear to build his programs with the intent of having options available, depending on his health/confidence at each competition, as well as allowing experimentation.

 

[eppen]

I did some updating on my little collection of program diagrams/maps - I made some for men's FS a couple of years ago to understand better how programs work spatially. This also gives an opportunity to compare the patterns for entering different jumps and the spread of elements on the ice. I have 4 programs for Chen and 6 for Hanyu. (Directions in the following from the point of view of the judges.)

It was kind of funny to note that it was Hanyu who repeats the patterns for his quads faithfully year in year out. The 4Lo approach starts from the starting position, does a loop in the right hand side corner, goes diagonally to a curving line around the upper part of the rink to land the jump in the left hand corner. He jumps the 4S into corners at both ends and the left side pattern is almost identical to his 4Lo entry. The 4T mostly to the right with a similar loop in one of the left side corners. (Sorry for not putting this out in images, but this fancam video from above from the Worlds shows how it works.)

Chen does 4 different types of quads regularly and all of them to both sides of the rink. Because of this, there is so much variation in his programs that the patterns also tend to vary. The jumps happen roughly in the same places in left and right side corners/sides, but what he does before them varies more than with Hanyu. The 4Lz he did as a first jump in 2017-8 and 2018-9, to the right with identical approaches (a loop in the left upper corner, diagonal line down to centre axis and then mostly straight to the jump in the right side mid line). Then it was the second jump to the left in 2019-20 with a simple curving line from the right upper part to the left lower corner. This year, the first jump again and to the left, but with a large circle covering the right side and then diagonally to the centre axis ending with a straight line to the jump in the middle of the left hand side. Most repetition for Chen can be seen in the 4F and 4T combos.

The kind of spread of elements in different parts of the ice surface that is looked at in composition scores in the PCS, is easyish to accomplish if you do mostly triples. But I doubt whether that kind of distribution can be reached when your jump layout consists mostly of quads. Most of them get done in the corners or near the center of the short sides just because their setup takes more space and time than a triple's.

Nathan's Glass has an empty quarter in the lower right side with none of the jumps or spins there. His jumps land in the left side and in the right upper corner, spins in the middle. The steps are mostly along the central line from one end to the other with loops to both sides. The choreo sequence is a spiral ending in the spin in the middle of the rink.

Did not yet have time to do the entire Heaven & Earth for Hanyu, but in Origins, his elements were mostly in the lower part of the rink, jumps to the left and right sides with spins in the middle to right side. Steps in a roundish line with some loops in the end covering the lower central part of the rink, choreo sequence in a long curving line with a largish loop at the end in roughly the same area. His emptyish quarter is the upper left hand one. He also tends to skate mostly in the middle of the rink avoiding the border areas - Chen goes right next to the borders when he does for example his jump approaches.

E

 

[elbkup]

Maybe we need more Asian posters.

I am not Asian but I absolutely adore Yuzaru’s FS this year.. the music is epic and he skates it with his own brand of exquisite sensitivity.. I have rewatched many times..

 

[LutzDance]

Did not yet have time to do the entire Heaven & Earth for Hanyu, but in Origins, his elements were mostly in the lower part of the rink, jumps to the left and right sides with spins in the middle to right side.

He also tends to skate mostly in the middle of the rink avoiding the border areas - Chen goes right next to the borders when he does for example his jump approaches.

First, that's a really interesting analysis, thank you for sharing it! I highlight these two comments because they remind me of two skating maps I've seen from last season, of Nathan's SP and Yuzu's SP. At that time I I thought it was striking how the upper part of Yuzu's map was left empty, and it's interesting that his FS from that season recapitulates this tendency (assuming these maps represent the overall pattern of the skater's trajectory correctly). These two maps also show different coverage of the corners from these two skaters, consistent with your analysis using different programs. And now I rewatch the fancam of Nathan's FS from this Worlds with Yuzu's in mind, it does seem like he goes to the corners more often to set up a jump etc. I hope there will be more maps of their programs as these comparisons will be much easier with visual representation.

 

[Blades of Passion]

That discussion is quite scary, good choreography is not about making sure you skate into every corner of the rink. Nobody should feel compelled to do so.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

That discussion is quite scary, good choreography is not about making sure you skate into every corner of the rink. Nobody should feel compelled to do so.

What are you talking about? Judges should reward skaters who use more of the whole surface of the ice instead of just a portion of it.

It is literally one of the PCS criteria for Composition ("Pattern/Ice Coverage"): https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/...96-program-component-chart-id-sp-2019-20/file.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Pattern does not mean needing to skate into every corner of the rink. It means creating interesting shapes of travel on the ice. Ice coverage does not mean some kind of robotic measurement of exact percentage of using every inch of the rink either.

 

[LutzDance]

I agree that ice coverage is not about counting how many times a skater goes to each of the four corners; it's about how much ice is used in a program, which includes both the total distance travelled on the ice and the area of ice covered by the skater in a program. To increase the latter you literally need to cover as much of the rink as possible, which include the corners. Therefore, skating to the corners is necessary but not sufficient for ice coverage.

 

[1111bm]

That discussion is quite scary, good choreography is not about making sure you skate into every corner of the rink. Nobody should feel compelled to do so.

What are you talking about? Judges should reward skaters who use more of the whole surface of the ice instead of just a portion of it.

It is literally one of the PCS criteria for Composition ("Pattern/Ice Coverage"): https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/...96-program-component-chart-id-sp-2019-20/file.

From a strictly ‚artistic‘ point of view obviously it shouldn’t and it might in theory limit the possibility to utilise the pattern of a program itself to convey a certain concept or idea. Or, by ‚forcing‘ skaters to use as much ice surface as possible and this way taking away time or putting them in the ‚wrong’ location of the rink, it might effectively prevent them from performing other choreo or patterns, that might’ve been more appropriate for the music or concept of the program.

The requirements for positive GOE ask for a similar thing regarding the choreo sequence (‚good ice coverage or interesting pattern’), yet at the same time it also asks for the element to ‚match the music and reflect the concept/character of the program‘.
But what if a choreographer comes up with a specific idea for the choreo sequence or wants to convey a story or emotional state, that requires the skater to remain in a small area of the rink with not much of a pattern to speak of?
(f.i. maybe the program was spread across the whole rink and the choreo sequence is supposed to be reduced to a small area as a contrast to that)

Same with spreading all the technical elements evenly throughout the program.
I think Alina Zagitova’s Olympic free skate is a good example of this. Now we all know that it was a strategic, points-based decision by her team to put all of her jumping passes in the 2nd half of her program. But they also happened to pick music and make an edit, where it made sense musically and in terms of the concept of the program, since all the jumps punctuated musical cues and cramming all the jumps in the latter half arguably matched the busy and fast-paced nature of the music in that part. And I seem to recall endless discussions about this, whether this should affect her compositions mark negatively or not.

But I don’t think IJS is really that ‚concerned" with this. It’s not necessarily about creating the best or most interesting program from an artistic point of view, the presentation and choreography of a program is treated more like a technical or athletic requirement, something that is more quantifiable. So they’re making a blanket requirement for ice coverage, I assume because the idea is to create incentive for skaters to not only remain ‚glued’ to a certain area of the rink but to show that they can skate fast and reach and cover all that ice surface.
(I realise that it’s not stated this clearly in the guidelines, but I do believe that’s how it’s interpreted and applied by judging panels, and that skaters/choreographers put together programs with that in mind)

Because what’s considered a 'justifiable', interesting pattern or shape, while possibly not using a lot of the ice surface across a program, is rather subjective. There’s always the danger of using artistry as an excuse to justify skaters’ limited ice coverage by claiming that it was intentional and about creating interesting shapes or part of a concept or whatever, when in fact it was just a weak (in that area) program composition.

(And btw, I think we also shouldn’t forget that there’s more than just elite senior skaters out there. I think many requirements are also made with lower level skaters in mind, where not using the ice surface sufficiently might be more common and actually a sign of lesser skills or poor program composition)

 

[Blades of Passion]

But I don’t think IJS is really that concerned with this. It’s not necessarily about creating the best or most interesting program from an artistic point of view, the presentation and choreography of a program is treated more like a technical or athletic requirement, something that is more quantifiable.

This is not true, the Choreography component ("Composition") is exactly supposed to be a measure of interesting, cohesive movement throughout a program. That's the entire reason it was created. Yeah, they don't want the skaters just standing in one spot too much, but "Ice Coverage" is not supposed to be some kind of strict measure of exactly who traveled the most distance in a program or covered the most inches of the ice surface. It's supposed to be about utilization of the ice surface for the purpose of the program. Like for example not just going in a straight line down the ice into every jump, rather going in an S shape.

 

[1111bm]

This is not true, the Choreography component ("Composition") is exactly supposed to be a measure of interesting, cohesive movement throughout a program. That's the entire reason it was created. Yeah, they don't want the skaters just standing in one spot too much, but "Ice Coverage" is not supposed to be some kind of strict measure of exactly who traveled the most distance in a program or covered the most inches of the ice surface. It's supposed to be about utilization of the ice surface for the purpose of the program. Like for example not just going in a straight line down the ice into every jump, rather going in an S shape.

Now I obviously don't know what exactly the creators had in mind (afaik Joe Inman was involved in the initial draft and he claims to care a lot about programs being attuned to music and composition, so for all I know he might have actually envisioned it this way).

But I think it's naive to think that this is how it's currently applied or how it can be realistically applied.
I believe that most likely the average judge will go by the overall impression of a program, the big picture. And if said program was spread into every corner of the rink, that impression will likely be more favourable than if a skater mostly remained in a certain area of the rink and didn't stretch out much, even if they did some interesting patterns within that area.
And of course it is also possible that judges will disagree on what's a good pattern/appropriate for the music/style/theme of a program. Some might see more value in intricate patterns even if only a certain area of the rink was utilised, others might value ice coverage more and feel that a skater didn't skate grand enough to leave a good impression. That's why I said that assessing the quality of a skater's ice coverage/pattern is subjective. But travelling a lot of distance/covering as much surface as possible is more about quantity, hence a more objective parameter and easier to tick off/harder to argue with.

ETA: Plus, a pattern can vary in size and most often there's no reason it couldn't spread out to the borders of the rink and be limited to a certain area (unless speed and time is an issue). Like the example of straight line vs. S shape entry into a jump.
So it's not just about the shape itself but how it relates to size and the borders of the rink as well.

 

[LutzDance]

Like for example not just going in a straight line down the ice into every jump, rather going in an S shape.

I think you’re talking more about “pattern” (buzzword “shape”) than “coverage”. While I don’t think coverage is something to be measured by an odometer, it does demand the skater to at least give the impression of covering a lot of ice, which requires a decent amount of skating power and can be enhanced by creativity from the choreography department. In this regard I agree with 1111bm’s original statement - “coverage” is here to incentivize skaters to demonstrate good athletic ability. If they have access to innovative choreographers, great; if not, they can still strive to hit this bullet by training their basic skills.

Also, I think it’s sort of a courtesy to the audience to skate to the sides/corners? Imagine you’re an audience member sitting away from the judges/in a corner, wouldn’t it be nice if the skater makes it close to your side at least one or two times in their program? I’m saying this because a) I feel a sense of excitement when a skater skates close to me in a live competition; b) I’ve heard people who’ve been to live competitions complaining about skaters so-and-so didn’t even bother to visit their side etc, so I think it’s not only me who feels this way.

I think we also shouldn’t forget that there’s more than just elite senior skaters out there. I think many requirements are also made with lower level skaters in mind, where not using the ice surface sufficiently might be more common and actually a sign of lesser skills or poor program composition

I always appreciate it when someone recognizes that the IJS is applicable to not only the elite skaters we have so much fun following, but also to lower level skaters that we may see (or find ourselves to be!) at our local rinks. It makes a lot of sense to have a “coverage” bullet point to encourage lower level skaters to build power, speed, and spatial awareness when training their programs.

 

[Skater Boy]

I was surprised about Hanyu faltering so badly buthe is still a medallist. Yuma was a breath of fresh air. But really the str, the jewel the king is Nathan. He is a beast, a machine. Untouchable. simply untouchble yes his pcs re far too generous but with jumps worth so much he is the best. Shomo was fine wine too but really the skaters tht impressed me in so many ways with opposite styles but equally good - Kolyada and Messing. Messing is actully a good skater. Great skating skills - should have had higher pcs. Very sad not to see Vinny in the fs but Brown did his job. And at least he didn't fall on the 4S - though he tends to two foot or underrotate or both. Brown is the wonderful skater as usual.