Who can defeat the Russian Women in 2021-22? | Page 20 | Golden Skate

Who can defeat the Russian Women in 2021-22?

This one was tough for me to comprehend. Top Russian ladies beat everyone by jumping quads and triple axels not by pcs.
yes they do. i think the only Russian women this wouldn't be 100% true for is Trusova and Tuktamysheva, and even then they both still get high PCS. Kostornaia, Shcherbakova, and Valieva always get PCS through the roof. Valieva's will be even higher now that she's a senior.
 
yes they do. i think the only Russian women this wouldn't be 100% true for is Trusova and Tuktamysheva, and even then they both still get high PCS. Kostornaia, Shcherbakova, and Valieva always get PCS through the roof. Valieva's will be even higher now that she's a senior.
Through the roof compared with whom? They are just the best skaters currently. The only top Russian skaters where "pcs conversation" makes some limited sense are Trusova and Tuktamysheva as they lagging behind the first three ones and arguably they are not as good pcs wise as some of international skaters.
 
The strength of the Russians seems to be exaggerated a bit.
First of all, it seems that Valieva may overwhelm herself in the free skate trying to "out quad" Trusova. Also, many Russian women (Valieva, Trusova, and Tuktamysheva) have had their fair shares of disastrous performances.

Alysa would've beaten Trusova at US Classic, and I think she's in perfect position to capitalize if a Russian "unexpectedly" collapses.
 
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The strength of the Russians seems to be exaggerated a bit.
I think the Russian women are unquestionably strong, and as a group far ahead of any other country. While there are 6 (or more) women who would be legitimate medal contenders, only 3 will be at the Olympics. If one underperforms, there are skaters from the US, Japan, and South Korea who can capitalize. The thing is, those other skaters have to also bring their best; Liza and Sasha posted beatable scores at Worlds but no one else rose to the occasion.
 
I think the Russian women are unquestionably strong, and as a group far ahead of any other country. While there are 6 (or more) women who would be legitimate medal contenders, only 3 will be at the Olympics. If one underperforms, there are skaters from the US, Japan, and South Korea who can capitalize. The thing is, those other skaters have to also bring their best; Liza and Sasha posted beatable scores at Worlds but no one else rose to the occasion.
I agree. I have no idea which skater it will be as I keep seeing new skaters coming up that I think are spectacular. Although I don't know which skater it will be, I have no doubt that the Olympic Champion will be Russian.
 
Unless all three Russian women have absolute disaster skates, with the way PCS judging has been going, there is no way someone else is going to win, unfortunately.
Why unfortunately? For me - only strength of an athlete matters - not their nationality. I enjoy and happy about success of Nathan and Yuzuru the same as I enjoy and happy about success of Trusova and Valieva. I wouldn't be glad if somehow weaker skater replaced them for the sake of 'diversity'. I want to watch the best performances available after all. Isn't it the same for you?
Many years USA dominated in women and Russia in men/pairs. Noone complained. Many years Japan and Korea dominated in women. Noone complained. Now many years USA are dominating in men and Russia in women - and for some reason there are so many unhappy with that. Why? Diversity? Nonsense. In figure skating it's always 3 or 4 countries in the top - everyone knows it and are used to it. So what's the reason?
You can't say that Russia conquered all disciplines as well. While in juniors it's probably true for now - in seniors they are very beatable in dance, moderate at best in men, not fully invincible in pairs and nearly unbeatable only in women.
Alysa would've beaten Trusova at US Classic, and I think she's in perfect position to capitalize if a Russian "unexpectedly" collapses.
Is she? In her last competition she got only 207, isn't she? That's not a number for Russia. For example "yesterday's novice" Akatieva just beaten 233. That's without senior's choreo sequence and with junior PCS. Both were in international competitions with international judges. And highly likely Junior GPF event will consist of 6 Russian juniors - each with 200+ average score. It's just to give you a perspective on the depth of that country now. There is so cruel environment in competition sense - that for skaters used to it for their whole life collapsing is indeed unexpected. Without quotes.
Also, even if Trusova will qualify to get into Olympic team - she won't be sent to command tournament for sure. If RusFed is not a fool - and judging by many decisions they did before - they are not.
 
Through the roof compared with whom? They are just the best skaters currently.
A perfectly valid opinion but certainly not an empirical truth.
I won't pretend to be a PCS expert, but if we take all the jumps out, the Russian girls are clearly not the best component skaters. You were I think specifically referring to Kamila, Anna and Aliona. I'll leave Aliona out of this because her performances at test skates were far inferior to how she used to perform, and it's too early to say if she just needs more time or simply isn't as good as she used to be.
But Anna and Kamila both have obvious PCS strengths and equally obvious PCS deficiencies. Anna is an expressive and passionate performer, but has quite weak skating skills, with labored movements and unaesthetic positions. Kamila has nice skating skills- edges, lines, arms, etc. But performance-wise she is almost completely emotionless and sacrifices a lot of choreography for jumps. In my opinion Alysa should be outscoring them both in components. Her skating skills are better than Anna's, her performance and interpretation are better than Kamila's, and her choreography and transitions are better than them both. Her programs are far more cohesive, intricately choreographed from beginning to end without long blank spots for crossovers and stroking. All the movements are lovely, musical and flow together. She is performing every second and every move with full commitment and nothing but personality and joy.
These are of course my opinions, not empirical truths either.
 
A perfectly valid opinion but certainly not an empirical truth.
I won't pretend to be a PCS expert...In my opinion Alysa should be outscoring them both in components. Her skating skills are better than Anna's, her performance and interpretation are better than Kamila's, and her choreography and transitions are better than them both. Her programs are far more cohesive, intricately choreographed from beginning to end without long blank spots for crossovers and stroking. All the movements are lovely, musical and flow together. She is performing every second and every move with full commitment and nothing but personality and joy.
These are of course my opinions, not empirical truths either.
That's the key - we are not PCS experts, I wonder who is? Speed, the depth of edges, the number and wow factor of transitions - these are the only things IMO that could be assessed more or less objectively. The rest is the battle of tastes and the expression of one's personal emotions ranging from "I felt nothing" to "I was crying" with respect to the very same performances.

I do see major PCS improvements from Alysa this season. She is the US front runner - I have no doubts there. Is she better PCS wise than Anna/Kamila/Alena/Darya? My answer is no. She is already better than Liza and somewhat at par with Sasha and Maia - that's how I view it.

What is missing? Alysa radiates energy and happinness all the time even when the music does not welcome it. I see much deeper connection with music in Anna/Kamila/Alena/Darya. And she cannot match the sheer number of transitions that those skaters have when they are not preparing and jumping Ultra-C jumps which are outside Alysa's current arsenal.
 
Her skating skills are better than Anna's, her performance and interpretation are better than Kamila's, and her choreography and transitions are better than them both.
I agree on "skating skills are better than Anna's" (though not by much), and that her interpretation/choreography is better than both's programs (Daniil's programs really hurt them)... I disagree though that she's a better performer than either, or that her transitions are better than either. I'm actually quite impressed that Kamila's LP has transitions despite her attempting three quads at the test skate. Not directly leading into any of the three quads or 3A, but she does have them. She does an ina bauer as a connecting step to the 4T in the second half (although she does take the time to readjust herself), and she even does a Kerrigan spiral into her 3Lz+3T. Transitions aren't just what directly go into jumps either. The thing that hurts them the most is actually the extension (meaning the amount of time they hold a position for), and sometimes the position itself (but I think they've both got better at it this season, judging by the test skates).

One thing that did annoy me with Anna's LP was this moment: https://youtu.be/lqcwZ0_2mOA?t=119

It'd actually be a more difficult transition into the 2A had she held that forward Kerrigan and not taken the time to adjust with a shallow "step" in between. And surely a 2A is simple enough for her to train that transition. (and I'd have personally found it more effective choreography, and certainly more athletically challenging)
 
Anna is an expressive and passionate performer, but has quite weak skating skills, with labored movements and unaesthetic positions.
It's a dated fake news. Time moves on - and so should you. I admit that Alysa imroved her skating skills considerably - but so is Anna :) NOW she has very good SS - not the best in the field but still very good. It's a pity how people do not want to see how fast and easy she skates on ice. And even in her junior years I can't say she had bad SS either. You can't have bad SS with this amount of one-foot skating and change of directions. She lacked powerful glide on ice - but that's not the only criteria of SS.
Kamila has nice skating skills- edges, lines, arms, etc. But performance-wise she is almost completely emotionless and sacrifices a lot of choreography for jumps.
As many other skaters who are gifted with PCS by judges regularly. And at least she have that choreo to sacrifice - whereas many other reputed skater's programs often are so empty that there is nothing to sacrifice even if you wanted to.
In my opinion Alysa should be outscoring them both in components. Her skating skills are better than Anna's, her performance and interpretation are better than Kamila's, and her choreography and transitions are better than them both. Her programs are far more cohesive, intricately choreographed from beginning to end without long blank spots for crossovers and stroking. All the movements are lovely, musical and flow together. She is performing every second and every move with full commitment and nothing but personality and joy.
Well, you have you own reality - but international judges (considering Alysa's PCS scores this season) has their own too - which is different from yours. I think they are more worthy to trust since they are professionals as well as they can see skaters performances from close range with naked eye (which makes quite different impression comparing to tv screen).

P.S.: I suppose it's still quite hard to compare performances from different competitions. It would be really interesting to watch them one after another - if/when Anna and Alysa will meet on the same ice. Then their strengths and weaknesses will be more obvious - and who is better after all. It would be demonstrative for judges as well - their PCS scores are often relative in nature and depends on quality of other skaters beside the one they are assessing now. If one was obviosly better than the other - we can expect significant gap in PCS scores between them. Which can't be the case if the skaters were in different groups (highly unlikely for skaters of Alysa/Anna caliber to not be in the last group though) or competitions. Time will tell who was right :)
 
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Well, you have you own reality - but international judges (considering Alysa's PCS scores this season) has their own too - which is different from yours. I think they are more worthy to trust since they are professionals as well as they can see skaters performances from close range with naked eye (which makes quite different impression comparing to tv screen).
Trusova has never even scored close to Alysa's highest PCS. When has she ever received components near 69? 69 is even higher than what Valieva has ever gotten, and only 2 points behind Anna's gold medal free skate at worlds. Guess it's only about "trusting the judges" when it supports your narrative.
 
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Trusova has never even scored close to Alysa's highest PCS. When has she ever received components near 69? 69 is even higher than what Valieva has ever gotten. Guess it's only about "trusting the judges" when it supports your narrative.
Wait until first Valieva's senior competitions scores - and then we will talk. It would be interesting how your narration will change in regards to trusting judges :) As for Trusova - I don't see any problem with her low PCS. I would give her even lower PCS for the free - it's ok, she don't need PCS to win anyway ))
 
A perfectly valid opinion but certainly not an empirical truth.
I won't pretend to be a PCS expert, but if we take all the jumps out, the Russian girls are clearly not the best component skaters. You were I think specifically referring to Kamila, Anna and Aliona. I'll leave Aliona out of this because her performances at test skates were far inferior to how she used to perform, and it's too early to say if she just needs more time or simply isn't as good as she used to be.
But Anna and Kamila both have obvious PCS strengths and equally obvious PCS deficiencies. Anna is an expressive and passionate performer, but has quite weak skating skills, with labored movements and unaesthetic positions. Kamila has nice skating skills- edges, lines, arms, etc. But performance-wise she is almost completely emotionless and sacrifices a lot of choreography for jumps. In my opinion Alysa should be outscoring them both in components. Her skating skills are better than Anna's, her performance and interpretation are better than Kamila's, and her choreography and transitions are better than them both. Her programs are far more cohesive, intricately choreographed from beginning to end without long blank spots for crossovers and stroking. All the movements are lovely, musical and flow together. She is performing every second and every move with full commitment and nothing but personality and joy.
These are of course my opinions, not empirical truths either.
I respectfully disagree.

I bring this up again and again, there is just different styles in skating imo. There is the American style, the European(/Russian) style and the Asian style.

Me, as a Swede, have always had a fondness for the Russian style, then I would rank the Asian style as 2nd, European style as 3rd and American style last. That's just the way it works for me. But that said, I do have some awesome North American ladies favourites from the past, like Sasha Cohen, Kaetlyn Osmond, Kimmie Meissner.

When it comes to Alysa, she has always bored me. She had that typical American cheesy style that I don't get. But I have to say I am impressed with her this season. She is really good! And I really really root for her, the Russian/Japanese/Korean girls need competition!

But when we talk about PCS, and I am no expert either, it is clear to me that we Europeans have a completely different idea on what is good "skating skills", "interpretation" etc...than what the North Americans have, AND the Asians.

I just think it is important that we respect these differences, and acknowledge them. There is nothing right or wrong, there is just different styles.

EDIT: To connect to the initial question. On a good day, Alysa and Lindsay can beat the Russians.
The main threat though is from the Japanese and Korean women. Lots of potential threats there. But it's gotta be on a good day.

"On a good day" means that the Russian girls must have a bad day...
 
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But when we talk about PCS, and I am no expert either, it is clear to me that we Europeans have a completely different idea on what is good "skating skills", "interpretation" etc...than what the North Americans have, AND the Asians.
I don't really think this is true. In general, I find that a lot of the Europeans and North Americans and Asians have the same idea of what makes good interpretation - it is when we get to this level of "good" that they start differing. But a lot of them need it to be at that level of good before they start discussing differences in taste.

I do think there's a clear difference in style when it comes to Asian/West European/Russian/North American skating though, yes. They have different traditions of theatre and artistry.
 
It would be better if she won over Trusova. I didn't enjoy Trusova's free at all. She didn't deserve her PCS there. ....However. Park was overscored as hell. She skated accurately to easy (for skating) music without any emotion whatsoever as typical for Korean junior skating. I know what I am talking about because I've just watched Liza Kulikova same triples-only skates in last JGP - who got 196 for two clean programs. And then Park's skates. See for yourself:
https://youtu.be/SE7ndCaGIL4 Kulikova's free
https://youtu.be/yBO8t91ioFk Park's free
Difference is notable. In everything - SS, transitions, connection to music etc. Not in Park's favor. You can say that it's two different competitions with different judges and it's not fair to compare them - yet both are producing season's best score and world rating which are directly affecting one's career. Kulikova most likely is not going to be seen anymore by international public this season, for example. Also, I've heard that Park is going to participate in JGP as well - is it true? If so - you can't say that she is senior/reputed skater and judged by senior standarts and Kulikova is not. They both are more or less unknown juniors in judges eyes, aren't they? Was there really almost 20 points of difference between them?

The scores are what they are. Nothing is going to change them.
 
I'd like to add skating skills are not something subjective. It's a technical skill that are composed of the quality of a skater's edges, crossovers, efficiency and flow. Kaori and Rika's skating skills are 100% superior to any of the Russian ladies except for mayyybeee Aliona and Daria.
 
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