2021-2022 Russian Men's Figure Skating

[CrazyKittenLady]

That's not a very strong argument, Mark used this event for trying his 4Lz.

And I strongly disagree that Petr should have same components as Mark.

You have a point, the head to head could go either way depending on which elements they decide to put into their programs. About the components, it's just my personal impression. I was socialized with the "old-school" balletic skating of the St. Petersburg schools, so Petr ticks all my boxes in that regard, but I can understand how that might not be everybody's cup of tea. Mark's programs are more creative and exciting, and his performance and interpretation are certainly top notch. In composition, transitions, and skating skills I see them at an equal level. But overall Mark and Petr have two completely different styles of programs, so it is very hard (for me at least) to compare their components objectively. I don't envy the judges in that regard.
(Shallow and not completely serious note at the end: Tall skaters always get an automatic +0.5 in all the components in my books, there is just nothing more beautiful than a long-limbed man with balletic lines. An additional +0.2 if they are dressed in mostly black. )

 

[lariko]

That's not a very strong argument, Mark used this event for trying his 4Lz.

And I strongly disagree that Petr should have same components as Mark.

I am not enchanted by either, but Gumennik had been around longer, had overt struggle with growth and his carriage/presence on ice is now better due to his astounding final/near-final figure. His performance is the same as Kondratyuk’s, over the top, but it is more purposeful, where Kondratyuk is more random, imo. One plays piano, the second draws, both have distinctive personality. Kondratyuk got his golden period when he is fresh and happy right now, while Gumennik was fighting for a while… both have intriguing jumping combinations. At the moment, Kondratyuk is ahead, and, chances are, his Rostelecom’s scores will reflect that.

I really, really wish there was a way for Erokhov to get a GP, but his success path will be iChallenger, Nationals and Europeans if he is to seize this year.

 

[readernick]

I just wanted to add a few positive things I noticed about the Russian men at GP Italy since they get so much unfair criticism.

1. Aliev. I really like this program. I'm not an expert but I think the choreography aligns perfectly with the music and he really sold that StepSeq. Also, he fought so well in the second half of his program. He has done horribly on the GP before and then showed up ready at Nationals in the past. His quads looked very very close here and his stamina seemed better. Maybe, he will get it all together before nationals? I think his LP may be my favorite among the Russian men this year.

2. Gumennik also showed good fight. I have to admit,I fell out of love with his skating when his growth took away many of the beautiful qualities he had as a tiny junior, but the lovely basic carriage is starting to come back as he gets used to his limbs. Not a huge fan of the programs, but he really commits to the choreography and tall skaters are so impressive when they land their jumps. ( As already mentioned)

3. Kolyada is obviously just a beautiful skater with sublime jumps and SS. I really have nothing good to say about his programs so I will just say that this competition reminded me how much he shines when his balletic posture is allowed to play center stage and his face doesn't need to be involved. I feel his PCS here, while good, wasn't as high as his team would have wanted and this may give them more incentive to bring back last year's LP. Anything that pushes him to go back to his old program is good news .

 

[Flying Feijoa]

(Shallow and not completely serious note at the end: Tall skaters always get an automatic +0.5 in all the components in my books, there is just nothing more beautiful than a long-limbed man with balletic lines. An additional +0.2 if they are dressed in mostly black. )

Yes Compensation for their heartbreaking tendency to splat/pop/run out of steam (hello Makar...)

 

[lariko]

Maybe, he will get it all together before nationals

From your lips! My biggest fear is that the damage to his health last year is irreparable.

 

[vorravorra]

For real? Cripes, he's lucky he lasted a year there and he better not have asked for a reference. Bringing him along with Sasha T was the dumbest decision ever. You know when you're an employee you're supposed to respect your employer? Mr Rozanov must have missed that memo. That final interview he gave before leaving biggest WTAF ever.

Ahem, sorry, I'm a bit grumpy about that.


But yes lovely facilities, I'd probably run if I was there, although it'd be more a brisk walk

Didn't Rozanov join AoP before Trusova? I think Rozanov wanted to be like Volkov, do his own thing. Except he doesn't have anything like Volkov's experience. Volkov of course also ended up leaving and setting up independently. With Rozanov I've seen a lot of workshops abroad but I am not sure if he's doing any regular coaching. Litvintsev left him and went back to his old coach, obviously Kostornaia left, some kids transferred to other groups at AoP. Sviridenko is apparently in the Chech Republic. I quite like the programs Sviridenko choreographed for Kirill Sarnovsky, pity he's not at AoP any more.

You have a point, the head to head could go either way depending on which elements they decide to put into their programs. About the components, it's just my personal impression. I was socialized with the "old-school" balletic skating of the St. Petersburg schools, so Petr ticks all my boxes in that regard, but I can understand how that might not be everybody's cup of tea. Mark's programs are more creative and exciting, and his performance and interpretation are certainly top notch. In composition, transitions, and skating skills I see them at an equal level. But overall Mark and Petr have two completely different styles of programs, so it is very hard (for me at least) to compare their components objectively. I don't envy the judges in that regard.
(Shallow and not completely serious note at the end: Tall skaters always get an automatic +0.5 in all the components in my books, there is just nothing more beautiful than a long-limbed man with balletic lines. An additional +0.2 if they are dressed in mostly black. )

I also think good basics are important and Sokolovskaya's group just doesn't seem to impress in that regard considering they also gave us Samarin. Tastes differ but balletic is generally a safe bet, whatever a judge's personal style preference is, they are not going to mark you down for beautiful lines and balletic skaters are pretty much carrying a sign saying "I worked my butt off to get like this". As for Gumennik, he was never a Fed favourite, even St. Petersburg Fed seems to have something against him. Running away from Mishin perhaps, Mishin is not someone it's a good idea to cross. But he is well-trained without a doubt (unlike I have to say Kondratiuk) although Gumennik's SS are not his strongest suit. Kondratiuk's components are in his energy and charisma. I would argue this is not enough (which is why despite liking Semenenko I am not putting him on par with Kolyada/Aliev/Danielian/Vetlugin), but having just read 20 pages of passionate arguing about which skater deserves what PCS I've come to the conclusion it's pointless to argue about PCS.

 

[lariko]

but having just read 20 pages of passionate arguing about which skater deserves what PCS I've come to the conclusion it's pointless to argue about PCS.

Only now?

 

[vorravorra]

Only now?

Not really, but sometimes I still get tiggered. People seem to think "I like a skater=the skater deserves good scores" and "I don't like a skater= the skater should never be scored above 7s". I am largely indifferent to Aliev but I would never in my right mind argue Semenenko should be scored above or at the level of Aliev in PCS because PCS are not 100% about your preferred skating style.

 

[CrazyKittenLady]

I rewatched some of yesterday's free skates and I actually feel a little more optimistic about Dima now. Of course he didn't deliver the quads and messed up the last spin, but all the other elements were of good quality. The 3As were especially stunning and jumped without hesitation. His FS layout is just a little unfortunate, because if he does the triple-triple toe combo instead of the quad combo he can't add another 3T in combination without zayaking. So opting for a triple-double combo in the second half was actually good thinking on his part, I just didn't realize it in the heat of the moment.
And I know this is like beating a dead horse, and even though I whole-heartedly agree with everything that's been said above about arguing about PCS, I just need to mention that one judge actually scored Aliev with a 6.25 in Interpretation of the music of all things. I'm sorry, but how much better could you even interpret a waltz?
Anyway, the French GP will be a new chapter, so onwards and upwards! This also goes for Artur D. and Andrei M.

 

[vorravorra]

I rewatched some of yesterday's free skates and I actually feel a little more optimistic about Dima now. Of course he didn't deliver the quads and messed up the last spin, but all the other elements were of good quality. The 3As were especially stunning and jumped without hesitation. His FS layout is just a little unfortunate, because if he does the triple-triple toe combo instead of the quad combo he can't add another 3T in combination without zayaking. So opting for a triple-double combo in the second half was actually good thinking on his part, I just didn't realize it in the heat of the moment.
And I know this is like beating a dead horse, and even though I whole-heartedly agree with everything that's been said above about arguing about PCS, I just need to mention that one judge actually scored Aliev with a 6.25 in Interpretation of the music of all things. I'm sorry, but how much better could you even interpret a waltz?
Anyway, the French GP will be a new chapter, so onwards and upwards! This also goes for Artur D. and Andrei M.

Yes, the new policy wrt Russian men seems to suggest the Fed has abandoned men's singles and the judges are getting back at them for overscoring in the other disciplines. I guess the Fed had to trade away something, but this may come back and bite them in the team event.

 

[coldblueeyes]

Yes, the new policy wrt Russian men seems to suggest the Fed has abandoned men's singles and the judges are getting back at them for overscoring in the other disciplines. I guess the Fed had to trade away something, but this may come back and bite them in the team event.

This is not only regarding Kolyada, but he's the top Russian skater and I don't remember him breaking 90+ in big competitions in years now. Also, barely scratched 44+ in the SP too. The judges seem to be very cold towards him, and since he's the top dog, the others are also being scored lower than usual.

But I don't know when the Fed will realize they can't rely on one coach or one style of coaching to bring the men to the top. We have now two entire cycles of Eteri dominance in ladies, but her men are just nothing. Not even breaking into the ranks of the best in Russia, or the ones with enough talent to do so, get injured or leave her. I'm not sure her approach works for men, to be quite honest? And at the moment, no one is really producing top-level talent that can rival the likes of Nathan and Yuzuru, for example. The guys we have take years in the making, and some of them are going from coach to coach until the reach their top ability.

 

[elektra blue]

I’m afraid I will need to figure out what I should get for comfort food for France, because it proved emotional today, and I have a foreboding France would be even more so.

alcohol, honey, works all the time ad anso has carbo

 

[vorravorra]

This is not only regarding Kolyada, but he's the top Russian skater and I don't remember him breaking 90+ in big competitions in years now. Also, barely scratched 44+ in the SP too. The judges seem to be very cold towards him, and since he's the top dog, the others are also being scored lower than usual.

But I don't know when the Fed will realize they can't rely on one coach or one style of coaching to bring the men to the top. We have now two entire cycles of Eteri dominance in ladies, but her men are just nothing. Not even breaking into the ranks of the best in Russia, or the ones with enough talent to do so, get injured or leave her. I'm not sure her approach works for men, to be quite honest? And at the moment, no one is really producing top-level talent that can rival the likes of Nathan and Yuzuru, for example. The guys we have take years in the making, and some of them are going from coach to coach until the reach their top ability.

No, there is no evidence that it does, and the list of TT's male skaters who ran into problems and left is longer than most people realise (there is an actual list somewhere, certain fans have encyclopedic memories) and keeps being added to. If it was balanced out by successes it would be one thing, but it isn't. As mentioned above, early quads just don't seem to work in men, and the earlier they get them, the earlier things start going wrong. Another tendency I am not fond of is getting boys to jump multiple quads before they get a 3A. The idea of stepwise development seems to have been lost. My impression of Eteri is that she is impatient and simply not the right coach to develop skaters gradually. This is why she is successful in ladies where you can win straight out of juniors but not in men. I also get a feeling that she may be losing interest in men because she's realised there is not enough reward for time and effort spent. The current novice stars are not promoted the same way Samsonov was, although this could also be due to the Fed getting a bit more sceptical and choosing to wait at least until they achieve something in juniors. We'll see.

 

[ladyjane]

(not with pineapple) andwill do the job @elektra blue and @lariko. Great comforting food! And I just adore the Russian men because of their unpredictability and other things. They are all so beautifully different!

 

[anonymoose_au]

Another tendency I am not fond of is getting boys to jump multiple quads before they get a 3A.

Oh yeah! I noticed that with Mark Lukin as I was very confused at first. But I don't think Eteri teaches them jumps, isn't that Sergei D? Then again Aliona attributed getting her 3A to Rozanov... perhaps the dreaded 3A isn't a strong point of the Dude's. I wonder how Plushy and his team will go. Although I think they teach quads and 3A in tandem...I remember seeing Kirill S going for a 4S in training as well as a 3A. But he still got the 3A down first and is still working on bringing the 4S in.

The current novice stars are not promoted the same way Samsonov was...

I miss Samsonov, I hope he can come back! Although I have to say it's probably a good thing that there's not so much pressure on the Novice and Junior lads to be the second coming, that stuff messes with your head.

And I just adore the Russian men...They are all so beautifully different!

it's fun watching them and cheering along. Plus they all seem like such nice boys as my mother would say

(not with pineapple)

Gimme all the pineapple I shall put it on my pizza

I just need to mention that one judge actually scored Aliev with a 6.25 in Interpretation of the music of all things.

*Picks up phone* Hello, police? I'd like to report a robbery.

 

[coldblueeyes]

No, there is no evidence that it does, and the list of TT's male skaters who ran into problems and left is longer than most people realise (there is an actual list somewhere, certain fans have encyclopedic memories) and keeps being added to. If it was balanced out by successes it would be one thing, but it isn't. As mentioned above, early quads just don't seem to work in men, and the earlier they get them, the earlier things start going wrong. Another tendency I am not fond of is getting boys to jump multiple quads before they get a 3A. The idea of stepwise development seems to have been lost. My impression of Eteri is that she is impatient and simply not the right coach to develop skaters gradually. This is why she is successful in ladies where you can win straight out of juniors but not in men. I also get a feeling that she may be losing interest in men because she's realised there is not enough reward for time and effort spent. The current novice stars are not promoted the same way Samsonov was, although this could also be due to the Fed getting a bit more sceptical and choosing to wait at least until they achieve something in juniors. We'll see.

But her style of achieving jumps is the same for ladies. Most of them are jumping quads before 3As, and some of them never even train them. The thing is, with men, it is basically impossible to win anything of valor without 3As. And quads for quads are also not everything.

 

[lariko]

And I know this is like beating a dead horse, and even though I whole-heartedly agree with everything that's been said above about arguing about PCS, I just need to mention that one judge actually scored Aliev with a 6.25 in Interpretation of the music of all things. I'm sorry, but how much better could you even interpret a waltz?

Well, if he was in the second group… but, yeah, I am pretty sure he was connected to that waltz. But Mozalev’s upcoming scoring in that light… (gulp) Honestly, why did I live my life and avoided alcohol? It’s too late to start now. I think I will load on calming teas.

 

[vorravorra]

But her style of achieving jumps is the same for ladies. Most of them are jumping quads before 3As, and some of them never even train them. The thing is, with men, it is basically impossible to win anything of valor without 3As. And quads for quads are also not everything.

The ladies until very recently seemed to be good either at quads or at 3A. Being expected to do both is literally the last couple of years, but it's still justified to pick what the girl is better at and concentrate on that. In men, as you have said, you can't be successful with just quads, and there is also no hurry to get any kind of ultra-c before you get trampled over and left behind, as is currently the case in Russian women's skating.

Oh yeah! I noticed that with Mark Lukin as I was very confused at first. But I don't think Eteri teaches them jumps, isn't that Sergei D? Then again Aliona attributed getting her 3A to Rozanov... perhaps the dreaded 3A isn't a strong point of the Dude's. I wonder how Plushy and his team will go. Although I think they teach quads and 3A in tandem...I remember seeing Kirill S going for a 4S in training as well as a 3A. But he still got the 3A down first and is still working on bringing the 4S in.

I don't know how decisions are made in TT what jumps to teach when. Lukin and also Knyazev, one of whom no longer has his quad and scored 170 at his last competition, and the other is currently on crutches after two foot surgeries. Knyazev's axel technique is frankly so poor there were doubts he can get a 3A at all, which is why people were a bit sceptical about his future. Kolesnikov is also doing 4T and 4S without 3A and with a problematic 3Lz.
AoP's skaters so far have acquired 3A before quads, although with Titova the difference is short, but from the available evidence she started learning 3A before 4S. Sarnovsky had 3A for the entire last season, so far hasn't managed a quad in a competition. In his case I think he needs to grow a bit and get stronger to have quads come easier. Zinina already had the beginnings of 4T when she came there so they just ran with it, with Muravieva it looks like they have been trying everything that might potentially work, but with women having both 3A and quads is still not a must the way it's with boys.

 

[MintGreen]

It looks to me that RusFed has largely abandoned their men skaters, except Kolyada. Perhaps they just didn't bother to invest any of their political power because the men are so unpredictable. Their plan would be just to let the men play out and see who will come to the top in the end. After all, they only need, or can only afford to, send one man to the team event.

Look at the PCS for the men so far:

Danielian 37.22/72.28
Semenenko 39.08/78.30
Samarin 38.89/75.86
Ignatov 37.79/76.16
Aliev 39.89/74.30
Gumennik 38.43/73.92

None of them score above 40/80, or even near the marks. Some of them are obviously lowballed, notably Aliev and Danielian. Other than a fall and some stamina issues, Aliev's free skate was well delivered. And giving a 74 PCS to that performance is just criminal.

 

[vorravorra]

It looks to me that RusFed has largely abandoned their men skaters, except Kolyada. Perhaps they just didn't bother to invest any of their political power because the men are so unpredictable. Their plan would be just to let the men play out and see who will come to the top in the end. After all, they only need, or can only afford to, send one man to the team event.

Look at the PCS for the men so far:

Danielian 37.22/72.28
Semenenko 39.08/78.30
Samarin 38.89/75.86
Ignatov 37.79/76.16
Aliev 39.89/74.30
Gumennik 38.43/73.92

None of them score above 40/80, or even near the marks. Some of them are obviously lowballed, notably Aliev and Danielian. Other than a fall and some stamina issues, Aliev's free skate was well delivered. And giving a 74 PCS to that performance is just criminal.

I don't think they support even Kolyada all that much any more, as @coldblueeyes eyes said, he used to be scored better than this. Aliev and Danielian I would like to see deliver better performances and watch what the PCS scoring is like. If their scores remain low, there is definitely something very wrong going on. Arguably with Semenenko and Samarin those scores are pretty much what they deserve, but that never stopped Samarin from being scored way higher before, so he's definitely been dropped from the support list. Considering he's still scored highly at home it seems the Fed still likes him but is not prepared to politick for him internationally.