2022 U.S. Nationals: Senior Pairs Short Program | Page 31 | Golden Skate

2022 U.S. Nationals: Senior Pairs Short Program

ice_tulip

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 22, 2007
Knierim/Frazier looked great and healthy at the practices on Tuesday. Some people expect the skaters to run and get a test every time they cough or feel a minor cold coming on, but realistically they can't do that. The skaters were only supposed to be tested 4 days after arrival, but Brandon went to go tested faster than that because of his symptoms.



No, it's very normal and expected for skaters to not practice with masks on. I don't think everyone realizes how physically demanding and potentially dangerous pair skating is until you try it (or a sport equally as difficult). The skaters are required to wear masks everywhere else.

I apologize; it seems you totally misunderstood my post. I was never blaming the skaters for anything, although someone desperately needs to teach them all how to wear properly fitted masks. I simply said that Brandon didn't wear a mask because he didn't want to wear one -- obviously that would be because it's more uncomfortable & difficult to skate with a mask on.
Skaters are naturally socially distanced from each other on the ice--- the odds of catching it from a skater on the other side of the ice rink are next to none. There was only 1 other pair in K/F's practice group because the other 2 pairs had already withdrawn, and they weren't near each other. Considering how quickly Brandon tested positive after that practice, chances are he was exposed to it way before ever getting on the ice here.

I never said he caught it in practice. He likely caught in while traveling to Nashville or earlier (incubation period is 3 days on average for Omicron). However, since coronavirus is airborne, the odds of catching if from a skater during a practice are definitely higher than "next to none." Skaters are breathing hard and if infected releasing viral particles into the air where another skater may whizz by just seconds or minutes later.

Do we blame people when they catch a cold? No. It's really out of the skaters' control and I feel very sorry for them that they have to be in constant fear of testing positive no matter how many precautions they take.
I don't think anyone is blaming them for catching COVID. I certainly was not. I was blaming the USFS for not educating and protecting their skaters.
There is nothing the skaters can do to fully avoid it. It would have cost them days of missed training to drive from SoCal to Nashville instead of taking a plane. And since when do hotel room windows open?

That's right, there's nothing they can do to fully avoid it, but USFS could have helped them mitigate the risks much, much better.
They were using N95 masks and taking a ton of precautions, but you still come into contact with a lot of strangers on any trip, it's unavoidable. It's like a cold-- if it were that easy to stop it, nobody would be catching one.

As I mentioned above, N95s are worthless if not worn and fitted properly. Many skaters are walking around with masks that are way too big for their faces with huge gaps, rendering them useless (see Jessica Calalang, for example). USFS needs to help them find a better fitting mask with a tight seal around the nose STAT.
 

ice_tulip

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 22, 2007
Is Spencer Howe hot?? That manbun really threw me for a loop. 👀

Yes, he is incredibly hot. He's also an incredible performer. Such elegance, such beautiful posture, such strength! I love Emily but she has been splatting on all her jumps all season and I really wish Spencer could find a partner who is closer to his technical level. Is Aliona Savchenko still looking for a partner?
 

ice_tulip

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 22, 2007
Been a fan for 40 years. Never been to a live event. Do they always blast super loud commercials as soon as the skaters are finished?
Then blast really loud rock music? Then have more loud music by a live artist during Zamboni? Maybe I would not enjoy a live event.
What ever happened to silence during breaks when you could actually talk to your folks with you??
I noticed they did that at Skate America too. Really trashy and off-putting. I don't think they do that in all countries. Seems more common in the USA.
 

ice_tulip

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 22, 2007
I wouldn't be so sure of that. If Ashley/Tim and Jessica/Brian both lay down great performances in the free skate, I could see the USFS making the decision to send them and place Alexa/Brandon as alternates. Given Brandon's medical condition and what's sure to be a major hiccup in training time at a critical period, there's no guarantee they'd be at 100% readiness by departure time.

Good point about Frazier needing time to recover from COVID. Some people like Johnny Weir seem to ignore the fact that Frazier was suffering "severe symptoms" (not sure what Frazier considers "severe," but he certainly looked and sounded sick). Even if Frazier recovers from the severe symptoms quickly, his whole body will be weakened and they will have lost substantial training time. It would certainly negatively impact their training.

I haven't looked and compared the body of work of the three top US pair teams, but my impression is that CG/L > K/F > CJ, with caveat being that C/J had 1 fewer Grand Prix due to the drug debacle. I think if C/J gets silver with a decent (i.e., no more than one mistake) but not brilliant free program, the USFS should not automatically choose K/F. Instead they should give the spot to CJ -or- have a test skate between CJ and KF to determine the 2nd spot.
 

ice_tulip

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 22, 2007
Asking for a friend: Is Tara Lipinski's contract based on how many times her name and Oly gold medal is mentioned and how (zero is the goal) little anything about Michelle Kwan (she of Olympic Silver AND Bronze and multiple World Gold Medals (5) and National Gold Medals ( 9) is spoken ?? Just wondering because they're certainly always trying to meet those quotas - positive and negative and it's been YEARS since Tara skated competitively. Enough

On the TV broadcast, Terry Gannon mentioned in the booth while they were all on-camera that Tara won 25 years ago. Kinda hit home how long ago that was -- a quarter of a century!! Tara sort of froze and looked like she wasn't pleased to have that fact pointed out, haha.
 
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moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie
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I haven't looked and compared the body of work of the three top US pair teams, but my impression is that CG/L > K/F > CJ, with caveat being that C/J had 1 fewer Grand Prix due to the drug debacle. I think if C/J gets silver with a decent (i.e., no more than one mistake) but not brilliant free program, the USFS should not automatically choose K/F. Instead they should give the spot to CJ -or- have a test skate between CJ and KF to determine the 2nd spot.


Someone in the US Pairs thread (I’m not sure how to bring it over here) laid out the scores from this season and it makes it very clear K/F is the #1 US team. I don’t see how USFS can not put them on the Olympic team. Now whether they would be able to skate is anyone’s guess. But they can’t not name them (my opinion).
 
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SnowWhite

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Good point about Frazier needing time to recover from COVID. Some people like Johnny Weir seem to ignore the fact that Frazier was suffering "severe symptoms" (not sure what Frazier considers "severe," but he certainly looked and sounded sick). Even if Frazier recovers from the severe symptoms quickly, his whole body will be weakened and they will have lost substantial training time. It would certainly negatively impact their training.

I haven't looked and compared the body of work of the three top US pair teams, but my impression is that CG/L > K/F > CJ, with caveat being that C/J had 1 fewer Grand Prix due to the drug debacle. I think if C/J gets silver with a decent (i.e., no more than one mistake) but not brilliant free program, the USFS should not automatically choose K/F. Instead they should give the spot to CJ -or- have a test skate between CJ and KF to determine the 2nd spot.
By the USFS's body of work criteria, K/F are the top team. Their international scores put them in position for priority group 2 (no team made group 1), and they would only have needed to place in the top 5 at Nationals to confirm that. Neither CG/L or C/J can be higher than priority group 3. So if K/F had been able to compete, the criteria say that they would get a spot even if they came 3rd behind CG/L and C/J (or even 5th). I think it's very likely that they get named to the Olympic team. What's not for sure is whether they'll be healthy and able to go.
 

slider11

Medalist
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Jan 12, 2014
Good point about Frazier needing time to recover from COVID. Some people like Johnny Weir seem to ignore the fact that Frazier was suffering "severe symptoms" (not sure what Frazier considers "severe," but he certainly looked and sounded sick). Even if Frazier recovers from the severe symptoms quickly, his whole body will be weakened and they will have lost substantial training time. It would certainly negatively impact their training.

I haven't looked and compared the body of work of the three top US pair teams, but my impression is that CG/L > K/F > CJ, with caveat being that C/J had 1 fewer Grand Prix due to the drug debacle. I think if C/J gets silver with a decent (i.e., no more than one mistake) but not brilliant free program, the USFS should not automatically choose K/F. Instead they should give the spot to CJ -or- have a test skate between CJ and KF to determine the 2nd spot.
I would also note that the Pairs competition is at the end of the Olympic 2 week period. This is very different than most Olys where Pairs was the first event (after team event). Analysts say that the Chinese scheduled Pairs last because it is the event for which they have the best chance to medal (Sui/Han). That is a definite asset for Knierim and Frazer should they be chosen. Whether in the US or in China, they'd have extra time to rest and prepare.
 

gold12345

Medalist
Joined
Dec 14, 2007
No. And if both teams skate like that in the free program, I can see it happening. They were both spectacular.

I disagree that Calalang/Johnson were "spectacular" in the SP, at least not to a degree where it would make any sense at all to ignore the entire past year's worth of competitions and USFS's own Selection Procedures that have Knierim/Frazier rightfully placed in a higher Priority Group than the other US pairs. Jesssica's jump was wonky and she had to save it and it maybe deserved a q. They also have some quality issues with their throw lutz, and she does this weird thing where she will tilt her body towards the ice before landing in a way that looks like she's going to put a hand down or fall, but then lands it. So while it as a good SP for them (especially since they tend to miss the jump), it was not that spectacular, based on my definition of it anyway.

Similarly, Cain/LeDuc had their best SP by far of the season, however it included a Level 3 lift, which is a frequent issue for them. It wasn't perfect.

One of the many problems with picking the team based entirely on Nationals is that our top pair didn't even get to compete, and that would mean you are judging them entirely on a positive test and nothing actually skating related. From a sporting perspective, and an ethical one, that's just wrong. That's not how you pick your best possible Olympic team. I'm glad USFS has much better Selection Procedures than that.


I haven't seen Alexa and Brandon skate that well, certainly not this season.

I'm not so sure I buy into this "first or nothing" viewpoint.

Not everyone pays as much attention to pairs, but everybody still gives their opinion. K/F have been our best pair this season by a strong margin. Are they perfect, no. Do they usually skate well and score high and do better than the other US pairs, yes. They are undefeated against C/J and C/L. They've beaten C/J 6 times in a row now, convincingly.


Knierim/Frazier: 212.55, 205.87, 202.97, 201.69, 186.69 = 201.95 average
Cain/LeDuc 202.79, 193.00, 189.90, 170.64 = 193.10 average
Calalang/Johnson- 197.42, 196.85, 196.69, 195.28, 191.89, 180.49 = 189.08 average
Lu/Mitrofanov- 195.32, 195.20, 190.03, 186.16, 158.81 = 185.10 average


You can't find video of some of their best skates this season online. There's no footage of their best International SP where they scored 76 for clean skate (by far the highest SP score among US pairs). They also had a very high scoring LP at that competition, but again, no video footage. They had a strong free skate at Skate America, but again, the videos get taken down by copyright so fast. They've had a couple random falls that got ironed out for the subsequent competition, but overall they've been skating quite well throughout their entire partnership.
 

TontoK

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I disagree that Calalang/Johnson were "spectacular" in the SP, at least not to a degree where it would make any sense at all to ignore the entire past year's worth of competitions and USFS's own Selection Procedures that have Knierim/Frazier rightfully placed in a higher Priority Group than the other US pairs. Jesssica's jump was wonky and she had to save it and it maybe deserved a q. They also have some quality issues with their throw lutz, and she does this weird thing where she will tilt her body towards the ice before landing in a way that looks like she's going to put a hand down or fall, but then lands it. So while it as a good SP for them (especially since they tend to miss the jump), it was not that spectacular, based on my definition of it anyway.

Similarly, Cain/LeDuc had their best SP by far of the season, however it included a Level 3 lift, which is a frequent issue for them. It wasn't perfect.

One of the many problems with picking the team based entirely on Nationals is that our top pair didn't even get to compete, and that would mean you are judging them entirely on a positive test and nothing actually skating related. From a sporting perspective, and an ethical one, that's just wrong. That's not how you pick your best possible Olympic team. I'm glad USFS has much better Selection Procedures than that.




Not everyone pays as much attention to pairs, but everybody still gives their opinion. K/F have been our best pair this season by a strong margin. Are they perfect, no. Do they usually skate well and score high and do better than the other US pairs, yes. They are undefeated against C/J and C/L. They've beaten C/J 6 times in a row now, convincingly.


Knierim/Frazier: 212.55, 205.87, 202.97, 201.69, 186.69 = 201.95 average
Cain/LeDuc 202.79, 193.00, 189.90, 170.64 = 193.10 average
Calalang/Johnson- 197.42, 196.85, 196.69, 195.28, 191.89, 180.49 = 189.08 average
Lu/Mitrofanov- 195.32, 195.20, 190.03, 186.16, 158.81 = 185.10 average


You can't find video of some of their best skates this season online. There's no footage of their best International SP where they scored 76 for clean skate (by far the highest SP score among US pairs). They also had a very high scoring LP at that competition, but again, no video footage. They had a strong free skate at Skate America, but again, the videos get taken down by copyright so fast. They've had a couple random falls that got ironed out for the subsequent competition, but overall they've been skating quite well throughout their entire partnership.

I'll grant the definition of "spectacular" is subjective. They were, however, the two highest scoring pairs short programs in the history of the US Championships. That's not subjective - that's fact.

I said I had not seen K/F skate as well as what we saw from the top two pairs lst night, certainly not this season. You disagree. OK, tell me when - I'm not an unreasonable man. I'm open to revising my statement but you've got to show me.

Which pairs will be chosen is to be determined, but I don't think K/F are a lock, especially if the top two pairs deliver like they just did. I think that's probably unlikely - but it's not impossible.
 

gold12345

Medalist
Joined
Dec 14, 2007
I haven't looked and compared the body of work of the three top US pair teams, but my impression is that CG/L > K/F > CJ, with caveat being that C/J had 1 fewer Grand Prix due to the drug debacle.

Knierim/Frazier are undefeated against Cain/LeDuc or Calalang/Johnson since their first competition in October 2020. K/F competed against C/J a lot this season and the margin between them was as high as 15.86 points, and never closer than 5.55 points.

Nearly all of K/F's scores are over 200 points this season and they scored as high as 212.
C/J haven't broken the 200 point barrier in their career.
C/L have 1 score over 200 (202). (Her triple loop at this competition in the LP was noticeably underrotated and not called, which is uncommon for them.)


Median international score

Knierim/Frazier 202.97
Calalang/Johnson 195.98
Cain/Leduc 191.45
Lu/Mitrofanov 190.03

Average international score

Knierim/Frazier 201.95
Calalang/Johnson 193.10
Cain/LeDuc 189.08
Lu/Mitrofanov 185.10

Average international score dropping the team's lowest score

Knierim/Frazier 205.77
Calalang/Johnson 195.63
Cain/LeDuc 195.23
Lu/Mitrofanov 191.68

Average Grand Prix score (Calalang/Johnson not included since they only did 1 GP)

Knierim/Frazier 202.33
Cain/LeDuc 196.34
Lu/Mitrofanov 188.09

Highest Score

Knierim/Frazier 212.55 (they have the 3 highest total scores in the US, as well as the highest SP score and the LP score)
Cain/LeDuc 202.79
Calalang/Johnson 197.42
Lu/Mitrofanov 195.32
 

gold12345

Medalist
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Dec 14, 2007
I'll grant the definition of "spectacular" is subjective. They were, however, the two highest scoring pairs short programs in the history of the US Championships. That's not subjective - that's fact.

Technically, you're right. Calalang/Johnson's Nationals SP score was 0.02 higher than Knierim/Frazier last year, meaningless difference from two different years. Scores naturally escalate throughout the quadrennium. Cain/LeDuc were clearly the best of the night, so they had to give them an even more massive score than they gave C/J. K/F could have scored over 80 here but of course they didn't get to compete.

The SP scores were extremely inflated for the top 3. C/J's flawed jump wouldn't have received 0 GOE internationally. CG/L's lift would not score close to all those +4s internationally. Lu/Mitrofanov have lesser element quality and were making little errors and still got huge GOE. The judges' names were mostly unfamiliar to me. How many are ISU judges? If you're not comparing to international standards when awarding GOE, then the GOE can end up being insane and the scores ends up being less meaningful. However, the order of placement was correct, absolutely.

Given how inflated Nationals scores tend to be, I would never determine whether or not a skate was spectacular based on the score. But others get excited by Nationals scores, yes.


I said I had not seen K/F skate as well as what we saw from the top two pairs lst night, certainly not this season. You disagree. OK, tell me when - I'm not an unreasonable man. I'm open to revising my statement but you've got to show me.

I would show you, but there's no video. K/F's best SP was at the John Nicks International. It was clean and solid, the best SP by a US pair this year internationally, by a good margin. Here's the results at least. https://ijs.usfigureskating.org/leaderboard/results/2021/30137/index.asp

Which pairs will be chosen is to be determined, but I don't think K/F are a lock, especially if the top two pairs deliver like they just did. I think that's probably unlikely - but it's not impossible.

It depends if USFS is going to follow their own selection procedures. If they take into account international competition, and award spots based on the Priority Groups as they said they will, K/F already have a spot. But if it's just based on if the other two pairs can skate well at a domestic competition where K/F don't even get a chance to skate, then who knows what will happen. I will just say that after landing the jumps in the FS at Nationals a couple years ago, C/J have hardly landed any jumps in competition since. Nationals doesn't tell us what they will score internationally.
 
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BlissfulSynergy

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They had some poor programs, but at NHK, their most recent comp, they had the highest SP of any US pair team internationally this season. I'm guessing NBC failed to mention that? And even without the Nationals inflation, that would/should have scored at least 75 internationally.

I said it before though, the gap is tight and clearly some judges would rather Calalang/Johnson win. I'm glad C-G/L gave them no choice but to put them first and I hope it remains that way after the FS.
Ash/Timothy made some mistakes in a few programs, but their debut sp at Finlandia was very good, yet unfortunately lowballed in the scoring. They remained strong in the fp, while others faltered, and they prevailed for a bronze medal.

I believe that what Ash/Timothy went through during the fall, while persevering to win medals, has given them even more confidence and determination.
 

BlissfulSynergy

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Given how inflated Nationals scores tend to be, I would never determine whether or not a skate was spectacular based on the score. But others get excited by Nationals scores, yes.
Let's forget about the scores, and recognize that Ash/Timothy had a beautiful skate in the sp. And C/J were not bad either. Our pairs teams should be appreciated and not constantly nitpicked. When they skate well internationally, they definitely should be receiving much higher scores than the lowball ones that typically have been meted out. As I said earlier, Ash/Timothy proved something to the international judges, so that by the time NHK rolled around, they were rewarded 70+ for a sp that wasn't as clean as their sp at Finlandia earlier in the season where the judges unfairly rated them 64+.

Figure skating scoring is often a trip and a conundrum. Is anyone watching the Meddling documentary series on Peacock. It's fascinating that it was a scoring scandal in the pairs discipline that finally led to the judging system being completely changed. Prior to SLC scandal, the ISU had authorized certain people to work on recommending broad scoring changes, but who knows what the overall outcome of their study and recommendations would have been. After the judging scandal, the ISU quickly implemented changes, without allowing the review and recommendation process to be fully completed and tested. Thus, they have had to constantly make rules revisions to the implemented system, ever since.
 

BlissfulSynergy

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hey also have some quality issues with their throw lutz, and she does this weird thing where she will tilt her body towards the ice before landing in a way that looks like she's going to put a hand down or fall, but then lands it.
IMO, Jess lands very high throws like a cat. What she routinely does, is to save landings because she has such a strong core. Jess & Brian have previously discussed the fact that as new partners they had to work the hardest on modifying their different throw jump techniques. While Jess gets lots of height, there's not as much distance. I don't know anything about pairs technique, but I suspect that something needs to be adjusted in how Brian is throwing Jess, so that even if there's less height, Brian can help her attain more distance. As it is, Jess is amazing in being able to consistently land these high throws (however wonky it looks sometimes). She also maintains great body awareness while in the air rotating.
 

coldblueeyes

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As I said earlier, Ash/Timothy proved something to the international judges, so that by the time NHK rolled around, they were rewarded 70+ for a sp that wasn't as clean as their sp at Finlandia earlier in the season where the judges unfairly rated them 64+.
This is factually incorrect, though? Levels were definitely worse in Finlandia, their BV was 2.5 lower. At NHK they managed to execute lift, spin and steps at level four, and upped the death spiral to a level 3, when at Finlandia they got a level 1. Overall you might feel like they did better, but they did not, and elements at the right level count a lot.

But they improved ever more here, especially their twist. It got way better than it had been earlier in the season. If they managed to replicate a skate like this internationally, I’m sure they’d be looking at a score in the 74-76 range, depending on the will of the judges, of course.
 

BlissfulSynergy

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This is factually incorrect, though? Levels were definitely worse in Finlandia, their BV was 2.5 lower. At NHK they managed to execute lift, spin and steps at level four, and upped the death spiral to a level 3, when at Finlandia they got a level 1. Overall you might feel like they did better, but they did not, and elements at the right level count a lot.

But they improved ever more here, especially their twist. It got way better than it had been earlier in the season. If they managed to replicate a skate like this internationally, I’m sure they’d be looking at a score in the 74-76 range, depending on the will of the judges, of course.
Yes, the program at Finlandia looked clean to my eyes. Sure, I heard that the base value of elements was lower, and I agree that maybe Ash's head wasn't down as low as it needed to be during the death spiral. The judges were still overly harsh in my estimation, placing them tightly behind two other pairs teams (one of them new, and the other a nice but average team). Ash/Timothy were consistent in the fp, while the two teams in questions showed their weaknesses and couldn't maintain their sp positions.

Honestly, Ash/Timothy did a great job overall at Finlandia, considering Ash had recovered from COVID, and then had to get back in shape asap. So clearly at the start of their fall competition season, Ash was not at full strength, and thus they were not performing the same difficulty they were able to perform by NHK. I remember someone mentioning that they slowly increased their difficulty as Ash's stamina improved, and as they were able to continue amping up their training.

I still give them huge credit for pulling out bronze medals at AC, at Finlandia, and at Skate Canada.
 
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BlissfulSynergy

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I don’t disagree he has the right at all. I’m just mentioning he is also 4x world medalist, 4x national champion, 4CCs champion. But he only mentions the Olympic one.
What the heck happened with Ben??? It looks like there were more audio tech issues. But there was never an explanation that I'm aware of at least. Ben just disappeared early in the pairs sp stream.
 

gold12345

Medalist
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Dec 14, 2007
How on earth did Calalang/Johnson not receive -GOE on their SBS 3Salchow for Jessica’s landing? Protocols show base value on the element. Her landing had no flow, was at a standstill and appeared UR. They missed the Salchows twice in warmup, so clearly doubts crept in.

Yeah I'm confused why some are acting as if Calalang/Johnson had some incredible skate when Jessica's jump was a struggle. I blame the super inflated score, which fools casual fans. At the very least, her jump needed a q. She would have gotten hammered in GOE in a regular competition.

The GOE was insanely high in the Pairs SP for the top 3. The PCS were inflated, but nothing too bad, but the GOE were like-- +4s galore for everyone. And even if you made mistakes on elements that aren't that great to begin with, your GOE still didn't drop into the minuses. Lu/Mitrofanov's protocol sheet doesn't really reflect what their elements actually looked like. Why do Cain/LeDuc need all those +4s for an okay Level 3 lift. I'm wondering why we don't use all ISU judges at Nationals so that the marks don't feel so different. If we're going to use this competition to help select skaters for ISU competitions, shouldn't every judge be an ISU judge? I just wish it was scored more normally. A couple points inflation I get, but giving everyone max GOE is confusing to someone who watches pair skating throughout the year.

The thought of these absurd GOE having anything to do with our Olympic selection scares me a little lol.


I still give them huge credit for pulling out bronze medals at AC, at Finlandia, and at Skate Canada.

And yet Cain/LeDuc scored much better at the one event they didn't medal at. So it's more than just the medals. Aside from Miura/Kihara, Autumn Classic was one of the roughest events of the season and bare minimum was required to medal.

Let's forget about the scores

I can't. This isn't Dancing With Stars where everybody gets a 10. I don't think everything needs to get +4 just because it's Nationals. It's Olympic selection time and I'm stressed and I'm in the mood to heavily dissect all the pair skating.


Ash/Timothy proved something to the international judges, so that by the time NHK rolled around, they were rewarded 70+ for a sp that wasn't as clean as their sp at Finlandia earlier in the season where the judges unfairly rated them 64+.

C/L had a lot of level issues in Finlandia, and a q, hence the low score. Their score went up at NHK because their levels were better and that technical caller inexplicably didn't care what her triple loops looked like that week. To her credit, the 3Lo she did in the SP here was much better than those ones at NHK. They did such a better SP here than anything they've done in ages.
 
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