- Joined
- Jul 1, 2007
The top Russian team lost momentum by not competing. I wouldn't be surprised if Virtue + Moir are the judges' favorites next year.
Virtue / Moir serve notice at worlds......
- Thread starter Geesesk8
- Start date
Klimova & Ponomarenko didn't win Worlds until their 6th attempt, actually. And I don't care WHAT medals they won and how their record looks on paper, I wouldn't put Gritshuk & Platov in even remotely the same class as them, and certainly not in the same class as T & D. But that's another issue entirely.
I'm glad that V & M won the FD and think they deserved to, BUT I don't entirely disagree with those who felt that D & S should have. V & M DEFINITELY had the stronger technique and basic dance skills, but D & S had more expression and told a story out there and were really in spots quite magical, IMHO. So for me it's almost a draw.
That being said -- I think Tessa & Scott are something truly special. The first time I saw them was at Worlds last year during the FD and within 30 seconds, I said, Wow, these two are pretty good; 15 seconds later, I was completely mesmerized; I don't recall ever being grabbed that fast by any skaters in any category (not even by Torvill & Dean), and I've been watching this sport for almost 30 years.
I don't disagree, though, with those who feel they need more interesting choreography overall. It is a testament to their INCREDIBLE basic dance skills and technique, etc, etc, that despite the fact that their FDs of the last 2 seasons have not been in a style that I especially respond to all that much, that I am mesmerized anyway. I would actually pay money to watch these two skate just a Compulsory Dance, and I've never seen a dance couple I would ever say THAT about.
V&M the new T&D ?
They should be compared to Klimova and Ponomarenki so far. Great techniciens, little understanding of what they want to project or do to make ice dance go forward and no backward.
GET THEM a choreographer, a real one, not Lori Nichol please, to teach them the nuances you must have. Make them work again with those acrobats so that their lifts continue on this trend they set this year.
Please don't let them become another waste of talent like so many teams of Igor have been over the years.
And why on earth do canadian pairs or dance teams always go for the easy way witth the "I'm in love" thing ? At least with Marie and Patch it was natural. There it looked stupid.
Add to that I still don't get their interpretation of one of the sadest movie (and cheesy too) here is ...
They should be compared to Klimova and Ponomarenki so far. Great techniciens, little understanding of what they want to project or do to make ice dance go forward and no backward.
GET THEM a choreographer, a real one, not Lori Nichol please, to teach them the nuances you must have. Make them work again with those acrobats so that their lifts continue on this trend they set this year.
Please don't let them become another waste of talent like so many teams of Igor have been over the years.
And why on earth do canadian pairs or dance teams always go for the easy way witth the "I'm in love" thing ? At least with Marie and Patch it was natural. There it looked stupid.
Add to that I still don't get their interpretation of one of the sadest movie (and cheesy too) here is ...
V&M the new T&D ?
i know right?
but i noticed that their music plays a great role in their whole character
i like all their music except the whiny lyrics in this years FD
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2007
I think it'll be hard now that K/N have made the podium, but they (Dom/Shab) won't be forgotten entirely. So, it'll be K/N and Dom/Shab, with V/M _most_ likely to take up the third spot.
no you are absolutely not
I find V/M boring. They're good and I would have had them medal as well but they're plain. I'd like to see a more mature look from her but please DON'T sex her up and turn her into another Tanith.
V&M the new T&D ?
QUOTE]
ROTFL all you want, T&D placed 11th and 8th their first 2 years at the WC. V&M placed 6th and 2nd, winning the Free Dance on their 2nd year. So what exactly are you laughing about?
At their first Olympics, T&D placed 5th. We'll see what V&M can do in Vancouver, but I'm pretty sure that if they are healthy, they'll be hard to beat.
Are you dead serious ?
Do you understand WHY Torvil and Dean ARE important to the history of ice dance ? Do you get the fact they improved the sport by making it go forward ?
It has nothing to do with placements, it has everything to do with what they brought to ice dance.
And let me tell you V&M are nowhere near that and probably never will be.
Do you get the fact that yes V&M are good skaters if not the best technical skaters in ice dance, BUT there is a lot more to ice dance than this and they lack the very meaning of what it is.
They still don't have any impact on that world, and until they try to reinvent themselves sooner than later, they'll know the same path as many NA gifted dance teams that were wasted by the likes of Shpilband.
Being good technicians means nothing. You have to make an impact on all other teams so that they start to try to copy your style.
And I don't see that happening with the all too easy and cheesy programs they've done so far. I'll let them grow up before even thinking they'll one day be on par with the likes of T&D.
Add to that Chris was the epitome of intelligence and meaningfull choreography while they can't even understand that "Les parapluies de Cherbourd" doesn't have a second of happyness in it. It's all about loss and sadness. Maybe the fault is to put on their coaches, but why do NA skaters always go the easy road of cheesy "I'm in love" programs ?
So yes, I am
with a comparison that has no right to be made at that moment.Are you dead serious ?
Do you understand WHY Torvil and Dean ARE important to the history of ice dance ? Do you get the fact they improved the sport by making it go forward ?
It has nothing to do with placements, it has everything to do with what they brought to ice dance.
And let me tell you V&M are nowhere near that and probably never will be.
Do you get the fact that yes V&M are good skaters if not the best technical skaters in ice dance, BUT there is a lot more to ice dance than this and they lack the very meaning of what it is.
They still don't have any impact on that world, and until they try to reinvent themselves sooner than later, they'll know the same path as many NA gifted dance teams that were wasted by the likes of Shpilband.
Being good technicians means nothing. You have to make an impact on all other teams so that they start to try to copy your style.
And I don't see that happening with the all too easy and cheesy programs they've done so far. I'll let them grow up before even thinking they'll one day be on par with the likes of T&D.
Add to that Chris was the epitome of intelligence and meaningfull choreography while they can't even understand that "Les parapluies de Cherbourd" doesn't have a second of happyness in it. It's all about loss and sadness. Maybe the fault is to put on their coaches, but why do NA skaters always go the easy road of cheesy "I'm in love" programs ?
So yes, I am
V&M the next T&D, for sure, seriously.
The comparison between the placement at their first 2 championships only says that they have been more successfull than T&D so far in their careers.
I'm glad that you can admit that they are exceptionnaly skilled, and I would like to remind you that the are barely out of junior. So to be that good that young is nothing short of spectacular.
It is a bit early to talk about the need to reinvent themselves since
IT IS THEIR 2ND FREAKING YEAR at that level. Look at their earlier programs, they are really progressing fast.
Your assessement of the cheesyness and easyness of their programs can be debated, your opinion on that is as valuable as mine. Understand that I clearly do not agree with your appreciation of both Valse Triste and Les Parapluies.
And I find your eagerness to categorize the North American teams as cheesy really problematic.
Anyway, so far, if you compare T&D with V&M at the same time of their careers, the Canadians are ahead by far, both with results and technique. They rank up there as great dance teams in my book, with yes T&D, but also Usova-Zhulin and Paul -Isabelle. Add V&M to that and you have my favorite dance teams since I've been watching the sport.
We are both just fans by the way, stop acting so condescending.
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For the record, Valse triste was brilliant, Les parapluies was going the easy same way as the year before, but that is my vision of it.
And yes I am sorry but since Salé and Pelletier did their Love Story program, all north americans teams tend to do cheesy "I love you" routine, and it is beginning to be the same in ice dance. VARIETY please ! It is way to easy in terms of choreography and risks !
Look at the gala, every bloody skater went that easy way if it can mean anything to you.
As for the comparison, stay calm. You'll make maybe one day it if they do have the same impact in ice dance in the long term. Being that enthousiastic about them is just over the top right now.
And no they are not more successfull than T&D : different time, different judging protocols, different ways of assessing the valors of skaters (they had to wait, no matter how good they were).
You are lacking the whole picture there and it can be endearing to read, but put your feet on the ground one second and just read the enormities of what you say.
You are comparing let's say a good rock guitarist to Jimmy Hendrix. Let the time work in their favor ... or not.
You are comparing kid, who have yet to prove themselves on the ice dance world, with those that changed that world forever. It's just not the same thing so far.
You could compare their technical abilities with Klimova/onomarenko or G&P thus far, but wait a bit they prove the whole world they can do something very interesting and give its direction to that scene.
And yes I am sorry but since Salé and Pelletier did their Love Story program, all north americans teams tend to do cheesy "I love you" routine, and it is beginning to be the same in ice dance. VARIETY please ! It is way to easy in terms of choreography and risks !
Look at the gala, every bloody skater went that easy way if it can mean anything to you.
As for the comparison, stay calm. You'll make maybe one day it if they do have the same impact in ice dance in the long term. Being that enthousiastic about them is just over the top right now.
And no they are not more successfull than T&D : different time, different judging protocols, different ways of assessing the valors of skaters (they had to wait, no matter how good they were).
You are lacking the whole picture there and it can be endearing to read, but put your feet on the ground one second and just read the enormities of what you say.
You are comparing let's say a good rock guitarist to Jimmy Hendrix. Let the time work in their favor ... or not.
You are comparing kid, who have yet to prove themselves on the ice dance world, with those that changed that world forever. It's just not the same thing so far.
You could compare their technical abilities with Klimova/onomarenko or G&P thus far, but wait a bit they prove the whole world they can do something very interesting and give its direction to that scene.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Setting aside the Torvill and Dean comparison (premature, to say the least!), I don't think that a program based on movie music necessarily has to act out a scene from the movie, or to mimic the movie's characteristic mood.
Why can't skater's give their own interpretation of the music standing alone? I don't think it's necessary, in a competitive skatng program, to dress up like Juliette or to depict the death throes of a swan. To me, "interpreting the music" means matching beautiful and appropriate movement with beautiful music.
Maybe the theme and vision of Virtue and Moir's Umbrellas is just "two people dancing." Which, as far as I can tell, was the theme of Torvill and Dean's most famous piece, Bolero.
I have to agree with BigJohn's assesment, which is basically how I had been meaning to respond to the same post, but hadn't gotten around to writing.
I would like to add, however --
First of all, the T & D comparisons [at this point] have nothing to do with INNOVATION, they have to do with TECHNIQUE. In that department, V & M have come the closest to T & D of anyone since T & D left the scene. (Both times).
As far as innovation and "new directions" are concerned, I wonder in general, under the current system and the current rules (which do seem to change every season, but rarely all that radically) it is even POSSIBLE, regardless of talent and skill, to take Dance in a whole new direction. Jayne & Chris competed at a time where they had considerably more latitude in what they could do, accusations of "rule breaking" notwithstanding.
I would like to add, however --
First of all, the T & D comparisons [at this point] have nothing to do with INNOVATION, they have to do with TECHNIQUE. In that department, V & M have come the closest to T & D of anyone since T & D left the scene. (Both times).
As far as innovation and "new directions" are concerned, I wonder in general, under the current system and the current rules (which do seem to change every season, but rarely all that radically) it is even POSSIBLE, regardless of talent and skill, to take Dance in a whole new direction. Jayne & Chris competed at a time where they had considerably more latitude in what they could do, accusations of "rule breaking" notwithstanding.
So ...
A) Congratulations on your appreciation of Valse Triste. It appears that you are not hopeless.
B) I prefere to be enthousiastic about the most exciting team to arrive in the ice dance world, with a bigger splash than any team in our life time than, I don't know, wetting my shorts about D-S, the has-beens-that-almost-never-were or the clownish K-N. But it is all a matter of taste, so your word is as valuable as mine.
C) Are you seriously saying that finishing 11th and 8th is a better result than finishing 6th and 2nd? Because most people with an ounce of common sense would say that it is a better result to finish 6th and 2nd than to finish 11th and 8th.
Now I am not a mathematician, but if I remember my grade one math correctly, finishing 6th is better than finishing 11th, and finishing 2nd is better than finishing 8th.
I would have to think that someone who finishes 6th at a world championship had more success than someone who finished 11th, and that someone who gets a silver medal the year after that probably had more success than someone who finished 8th.
In my book, finishing 11th and 8th is less successfull than finishing 6th and 2nd.
Now if you still disagree, you need to tell me what kind of medication you are taking because when you look at the numbers, it looks pretty clear to me.
They also won the FD. Do I have to assume that is also a bad thing in your book?
D) Winning the FD their 2nd year as seniors is a pretty big achievement. I would have to believe that the ice dance world took notice of that, the ice dance world actually crowned them. So I do believe that the ice dance world noticed them, that scene rarely gives freebies to NA teams.
I happen to think that the ice dance world embraced the dominant team of the future and that the future started on the 21st of March 2008. That is when Virtue and Moir won the Free Dance.
I think you should open your eyes, you are missing the big picture here. Show just a little bit of good faith and that team will blow you away.
And stop it with the talking down approach, it is not very becoming, not charming, not nice... You sound like an old know-it-all teacher.
No offense.
Talk to you soon.
Hugs and kisses.
Big J.
XX
It sounds like you might be on some medication that is causing you to lose your memory. Or are you unfamiliar with pre-CoP ice dance? Almost everyone knows that pre-CoP, it was virtually impossible for a new team to score a high placement -- waiting your turn was de rigeur. Plus, there was no way for a team to jump up lots of placements in successive years (once again, the "wait your turn" philosophy). I'd say finishing 11th and 8th in those years was probably just as good as, if not better than finishing 6th and 2nd. You need to put things into context.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Marie D - What did you think of that Russian North American Moksvina using Love Story for Kam/Smir?
Joe
Joe
I am perfectly aware of what ice dance was before the big change, but here, you are saying "finishing 11th and 8th in those years was probably just as good as, if not better than finishing 6th and 2nd".
8th better than 2nd? Remind me not to ask you to be my accountant.
Cheesy yuk. It was unusually bad for a Moskvina team.
BigJohn, noone can talk sense into you. You are like a wall.
In those years, beginning in 11th place then movinv 3 spots in one year was just HUGE and a lot better than what's going on with COP.
And don't worry, Skate Canada is going to make sure they get their gold sooner than later
Generally I agree with you. It's not necessary to emphasize the mood of the movie you skate to to create a beautiful program, but V&M were using lyrics, and those lyrics clearly pointed out that this was a sad love. For example she was singing "I'll be waiting for you my whole life"-they had to leave each other. But they didn't show that feeling in their program, on the contrary, they just loked as if they were happy about being in love, and Tessa smiled all the time. So I wouldn't say that this was a felicitous interpretation.
Cheesy yuk. It was unusually bad for a Moskvina team.
BigJohn, noone can talk sense into you. You are like a wall.
In those years, beginning in 11th place then movinv 3 spots in one year was just HUGE and a lot better than what's going on with COP.
And don't worry, Skate Canada is going to make sure they get their gold sooner than later
I am like a wall when people , trying to "talk sense into me" are not making sense at all.
And the success of V-M has more to do with what happens on the ice rather than off the ice. Like I said, show a little good faith and that team will really knock your socks off.
But based on your comment about Skate Canada, it appears that showing good faith is, just like math, not a very strong skill for you.
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