Virtue / Moir serve notice at worlds......

[AwesomeIce]

V&M the new T&D ?
QUOTE]


ROTFL all you want, T&D placed 11th and 8th their first 2 years at the WC. V&M placed 6th and 2nd, winning the Free Dance on their 2nd year. So what exactly are you laughing about?

At their first Olympics, T&D placed 5th. We'll see what V&M can do in Vancouver, but I'm pretty sure that if they are healthy, they'll be hard to beat.

You're talking about a totally different time period in terms of scoring and placements. If V&M were competing back when T&D were, do you really think they would have risen so quickly in the standings? Heck no!

 

[ManyCairns]

I am perfectly aware of what ice dance was before the big change, but here, you are saying "finishing 11th and 8th in those years was probably just as good as, if not better than finishing 6th and 2nd".

8th better than 2nd? Remind me not to ask you to be my accountant.

Which is better, $3 in 1984 or $4 in 2008?

 

[BigJohn]

Well AwesomeIce, confident point you are making. Problem is there is simply no way to actually find out. The fact that you are so sure of yourself is looking more like cockyness than any other thing. It reminds me of George Bush and the Iraq, or better yet, scientologists discussing psychiatry.

Your theory is they would not rank as high as they did, you may be right, but you may also be wrong. Your opinion is impossible to prove, it is just an opinion. And it is also beside the point. I was comparing actual results of real events, not imagining "what if" scenarios.

Which is better, $3 in 1984 or $4 in 2008?

I know you probably think you have found a clever way to make a point. The thing is, if you actually compare world ranking, it does not fluctuates with inflation. There is no way to say that being #8 in 1979 is actually better than being #2 in 2008. It does not make ANY sense at all. AT ALL. What is this? Bizarro world? What is next? The team that finished last in 1979 actually won the competition?

Now just look at the freaking facts: forget about names. Team A places better than team B 2 years in a row. Wich team has had more success? Now put on your thinking cap and think hard.

 

[Audrey19]

There is no way to say that being #8 in 1979 is actually better than being #2 in 2008. It does not make ANY sense at all. AT ALL. What is this? Bizarro world? What is next? The team that finished last in 1979 actually won the competition?

Yes, it does make sense. Of course, 2nd place is a better placement than 8th place, no matter in which year. But you also have to consider the circumstances of a competition, which may have lead to a certain placement. No matter how good they might have been, there was simply no way of making the podium at your 2nd world championship, you had to wait until it was your turn. Maybe, if the judging would have been more objective, they might have placed higher, but that was not the case, so they were lucky to be in 8th and not in18th for example. So they were not necessarily less succesfull in their early years than V&M, even if the placements didn't reflect that. Who knows where V&M would have placed in 1979?

 

[BigJohn]

Yes, it does make sense. Of course, 2nd place is a better placement than 8th place, no matter in which year. But you also have to consider the circumstances of a competition, which may have lead to a certain placement. No matter how good they might have been, there was simply no way of making the podium at your 2nd world championship, you had to wait until it was your turn. Maybe, if the judging would have been more objective, they might have placed higher, but that was not the case, so they were lucky to be in 8th and not in18th for example. So they were not necessarily less succesfull in their early years than V&M, even if the placements didn't reflect that. Who knows where V&M would have placed in 1979?

CRAP!!! Enough with the maybes and the what ifs and whatever excuse you guys are coming up with. You got one thing right: Who knows where V-M would have placed in 1979?

Exactly, who the hell knows? The facts that we have are the results from 1979 and 2008. One team placed 8th, the other 2nd. Base your answer on these facts. To say that 8th place not necessarily less succesfull than 2nd is simply ridiculous.

Changes have happened in other sports, new technology, new techniques. Rules change. That does not mean that the former world order is bogus and to be discarded. Gymnastic, speedskating, track and field, all those sports have experienced major revolutions. Yet people don't disregard new champions because of the new rules.

If it pleases you, I'll say that T-D made one of the strongest arrival in the 6.0 system (if you don't count Eva Romanova / Pavel Roman who won the whole thing their first try. Moving up the ranks fast did happen, but I assume that this is not important), and that V-M made the strongest arrival in the COP system.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this.

 

[ManyCairns]

AAnd stop it with the talking down approach, it is not very becoming, not charming, not nice... You sound like an old know-it-all teacher.

Now put on your thinking cap and think hard.

But based on your comment about Skate Canada, it appears that showing good faith is, just like math, not a very strong skill for you.

Now if you still disagree, you need to tell me what kind of medication you are taking

Congratulations on your appreciation of Valse Triste. It appears that you are not hopeless.

8th better than 2nd? Remind me not to ask you to be my accountant.

Agreeing to disagree is fine. And whether one thinks V&M are the next T&D is obviously a subjective opinion. But I find it ironic that you, Big John, are slinging around a fair number of biting, sarcastic, and condescending comments and then accusing another poster repeatedly of being condescending.

No offense! Hugs and kisses! Back to the discussion!

 

[BigJohn]

Agreeing to disagree is fine. And whether one thinks V&M are the next T&D is obviously a subjective opinion. But I find it ironic that you, Big John, are slinging around a fair number of biting, sarcastic, and condescending comments and then accusing another poster repeatedly of being condescending.

No offense! Hugs and kisses! Back to the discussion!

Yeah, I'm sarcastic, been known to be that. Biting? I'll take it as a compliment. To my defense though, I really fail to see how anyone can seriously say that an 8th place finish is more successfull than a 2nd place finish. Makes no sense to me. And I believe that my slinging comments were more in response to what I considere weak and condescending arguments.

It does not excuse my tone, but it explains it.

Back to discussion? No problem. How about V-M winning the Free Dance? Are you not just a little bit impressed?

 

[ManyCairns]

Back to discussion? No problem. How about V-M winning the Free Dance? Are you not just a little bit impressed?

ABSOLUTELY! LOVE V&M!

 

[AwesomeIce]

Back to discussion? No problem. How about V-M winning the Free Dance? Are you not just a little bit impressed?

Nope, not really.

 

[skatingfan04]

Nope, not really.

May I ask why? I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I'm actually curious.

IMO, with no offence meant towards anyone else, I was really impressed when I saw V/M's FD and CD performances. Their CD was fierce, and the FD, which I think is brilliant, was fantastic. The OD was a bit of a mess. Not only did they have the slip, they looked nervous and didn't perform it nearly as well as they did at nationals. That being said, I think these guys are going to be the best team Canada has ever had, and possibly one of those teams that people will still be talking about thirty years from now. They're so young, and they've got tons of potential. Personally, I'm happy that they don't try to act too mature on the ice. Tessa's only 18!! Their performance value belies their age, but i't would be wrong if there wan't some youthful innocence and playfulness in their programs. I really hope that they continue to do well.

 

[AwesomeIce]

May I ask why? I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I'm actually curious.

Because I just really don't care for their free dance, that's why. It is too simply and empty. Every time I see that FD (and last years, too, for that matter), I sit there thinking, "That's it? That's what everyone is making such a big deal over?" Its nice skating, but boring. I just think they need more difficulty and more interesting choreography. And they need to branch out in their music choices and styles.

 

[MarieM]

Transitions you mean. Because that's a problem with Igor, he doesn't know the concept OR is ignoring it. I bet for the second solution.
And hell yeah, crossovers gave him plenty medals so far

 

[1795]

How about V-M winning the Free Dance? Are you not just a little bit impressed?

not really.

can some tell me how V/M jumped from last year's general level to this recently passed season's level, in general.
the discrepancy between valse triste to this umbrella thing?

the judges are really pushing this team for 2010

honestly... they don't get to me as people explain they do to them, for example nationals...

P.S. AwesomeIce is my new best friend

 

[mycelticblessing]

Its nice skating, but boring. I just think they need more difficulty and more interesting choreography. And they need to branch out in their music choices and styles.

I think the reason they stick to similar styles of music, is becuase those suit them the best. They have a similar style with D/L, which causes them to stick with love songs and ballads. V/M could never skate to 'From the Hall of the Mountain King' which K/N skate so marvellouslly to, because it simply wouldn't complement them nor their style.

 

[all that]

I think the reason they stick to similar styles of music, is becuase those suit them the best. They have a similar style with D/L, which causes them to stick with love songs and ballads. V/M could never skate to 'From the Hall of the Mountain King' which K/N skate so marvellouslly to, because it simply wouldn't complement them nor their style.

Just as K/N could never dance to "Umbrellas of Cherbourg". It's good to have different couples bringing different styles of dance. Certainly makes watching the competition more fun!

 

[all that]

not really.

can some tell me how V/M jumped from last year's general level to this recently passed season's level, in general.
the discrepancy between valse triste to this umbrella thing?

The reasons V&M were able to jump up from last year's level to this year's level:

1) They improved their power, speed, and ice coverage
2) They improved their lifts
3) They now project more into the audience ("skate bigger"). Last year, they still skated like a junior team, meaning that they looked rather small on the ice.

 

[Mathman]

Just as K/N could never dance to "Umbrellas of Cherbourg".

I bet they could! And vice versa.

 

[npa]

Just as K/N could never dance to "Umbrellas of Cherbourg". It's good to have different couples bringing different styles of dance. Certainly makes watching the competition more fun!

+1000
I think, Kh/N didnt need skate to "Umbrellas of Cherbourg". and V/M didnt need skate to "Night on the mounting". This teams have there styles - Kh/N dramatic and acrobatic and V/M dancing and clean style. And its interesting to watch both of them. Both teams must work on there mistakes and both teams can have brilliant future.
And Tessa and Scott could skate to "Peer Gynt" by Edvard Griуg , because it have several parts, wich could be graete fo V/M - "Nordic morning" for examle. As for Musorgsky (the first part of Kh/N FD) - i agree, Tessa and Scott couldnt skate to it

 

[shine]

Are you dead serious ?
Do you understand WHY Torvil and Dean ARE important to the history of ice dance ? Do you get the fact they improved the sport by making it go forward ?
It has nothing to do with placements, it has everything to do with what they brought to ice dance.
And let me tell you V&M are nowhere near that and probably never will be.

Do you get the fact that yes V&M are good skaters if not the best technical skaters in ice dance, BUT there is a lot more to ice dance than this and they lack the very meaning of what it is.
They still don't have any impact on that world, and until they try to reinvent themselves sooner than later, they'll know the same path as many NA gifted dance teams that were wasted by the likes of Shpilband.
Being good technicians means nothing. You have to make an impact on all other teams so that they start to try to copy your style.
And I don't see that happening with the all too easy and cheesy programs they've done so far. I'll let them grow up before even thinking they'll one day be on par with the likes of T&D.
Add to that Chris was the epitome of intelligence and meaningfull choreography while they can't even understand that "Les parapluies de Cherbourd" doesn't have a second of happyness in it. It's all about loss and sadness. Maybe the fault is to put on their coaches, but why do NA skaters always go the easy road of cheesy "I'm in love" programs ?

So yes, I am with a comparison that has no right to be made at that moment.

Whether they'll be the next T&D, we'll see. Although I think they WILL be perfectly fine just being THEMSELVES and not be compared to T&D.
However, I think you just sound AS laughable as BigJohn in your post by stating V&M will NEVER achieve this and that when they are actually only in their SECOND year in seniors and are only 18 and 20, respectively.

 

[1795]

The reasons V&M were able to jump up from last year's level to this year's level:

1) They improved their power, speed, and ice coverage
2) They improved their lifts
3) They now project more into the audience ("skate bigger"). Last year, they still skated like a junior team, meaning that they looked rather small on the ice.

i noticed an improvement but an improvement not worthy, imo, of that big of a "jump"

case closed