ISU releases official agenda with proposals for 2024: age limits, jump limits and more

[Mathman]

I remember that! I thought it was magnificent, back in the days when I was uncultured.

What was magnificent about that performance was how the jumps augmented, embellished and supported the program as a whole. And in fact she got mostly 5.7s for tech and all 5.8s and 5.9s for presentation, not the other way around.

OT. That competition also illustrated the peculiarities of the judging system. There was a qualifying round, split into two groups, Michelle got 2nd in her group, then 3rd in the SP, then 1st in the LP. Irina Slutskaya went 1-2-2 and Maria Butyrskaya came in at 1-1-3. Who wins?

In the LP, after Michelle skated she had to wait to see what the remporary leader Butryskaya would do, and then sill had to hope that last-to-skate Slutskaya would precisely insert herself between Kwan and Butyrskaya, (whcih she did: Kwan 3.6 factored placements + tiebreaker. Slutskaya 3.6 factored placements, Butyrskaya 4,0 factored placements.)

 

[4everchan]

Non quad skater doesn't need to compensate gap of 17 points, because instead of 4toeloop + 3toeloop (Adam for 16.04 points) they may execute for example 3lutz + 3toeloop (Jason for 11.79 points) or 3axel + 1Euler + 3salchow (Kao Miura for 14.17 points). So the gap between non quad and quad skater is less than 5 or less than 2 points. Which is possible to compensate in PCS for example.

That is partially true as it doesn't take into account that the skaters who do a 3lz-3t or a 3Aeu3S will end up having to jump 2axels at the end of their programs for 3.8 points.... instead of someone doing a 3lz-3a Seq in their last jumping pass for 14 points

 

[Diana Delafield]

Thank you for this mentions.

I do believe that Level 4 Features offer more variants, so even naturally more rigid skaters can fulfil criterias. I definitely never want to see a skater being "punished" for his anatomy.

Because body anatomy and flexibility must be taken into account.

Some skaters have naturally more loose ligaments which allows them to be more flexible. Doing flexility exercises since childhood helps a lot in loosing ligaments as well. Many skaters are hypermobile in one or more joints and loose ligaments play smaller part in it.

But not everybody is hypermobile.

Joint's anatomy is essential coming to range of motion. Some people have joint anatomy which decreases range of motion in some directions. You cannot do anything with it despite how much or long you practise.

And if you try to get into the position which your joint is not build for - you always use wrong movement stereotypes overloading other body segments...which will lead to injury sooner or later.

I remember Miki Ando being criticized A LOT by American commentators (Dick Button, Peggy Flemming?...I am not sure). They didn't like her low flexibility especially in Spiral Sequence. From my medical view, I am almost sure that Miki has hip joint anatomy with reduced range of motion into hip extension (leg behind) and external rotation. So for her it was impossible to get proper position on classical spiral with leg behind or in Bielmann position. Some commentators never forgot to mention it, not thinking even for one second how strange it is that workoholic Japanese lady who is doing flexibility exercises for years (like everybody in figure skating) has so small range of motion in one direction.

Another part are shortened muscles or fascias or myofascial lines which decrease range of motion, it is another reason to have regular Rehabilitation treatment. I am surprised how many elite skaters are fighting with it (as it is visible even when they simply stand on the ice). I do understand that Figure Skating is expensive, but proper Rehabilitation is injury saving or injury postponing thing...it really does have sense.

As I've said in other threads, I've known many skaters, gymnasts and dancers who, like me, were born with Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome which gives us natural hypermobility. We gravitate to activities that reward that. In the last Olympics, when I saw one skater take an opening pose by linking her hands behind her back, the left hand coming down from over her shoulder and the right coming up from waist height, I had to laugh. Standard EDS party trick. My mother could still do that easily in her 80s. When commentators raved about the same skater's free leg elevation on jump landings, I thought, "Drop around to my rink some time. I'm not half the skater she is, but that's how I've always done spirals and jump landings."

On the other hand, most skaters I know with EDS prefer to be overbooted because we sprain ankles easily, and those of us in pairs do more than the usual strength training for the upper back and arms for lifts because our arm joints tend to come apart more easily.

 

[Mathman]

As to ambidexterity - this is partially medicine topic, which I like.

Here is Rohene Ward at 2002 Vienna Cup not only spinning in both directions, but also (at the 2 minute mark) doing a double Axe - double Axel sequence in alternate directions.

Rohene Ward 2002 Vienna Cup Exhibition

Rohene Ward (USA) skates to "Water Fountain" by David Foster in the Karl Schaefer Memorial (Vienna Cup) exhibition held in October 2002 in Vienna, Austria. H...

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I think that Carol Heiss (first woman to do a double Axel) could do single Axels in both directions. Sonja Henie, a counterclockwize spinner, did her (single) Lutz jump off the opposite foot and in the "wrong" direction (taking advantage of the mechanics of the take-off edge).

[Historical factoid, not about skating -- in the early years of the twentieth century behavioral psychologists in America floated the idea that all babies are born ambidetrous. They become right-handed because their parents always put their spoon or toy into their right hand. A few bad-temperred and obstinate babies resist their parents' wishes and go left-handed instead.

This justifies dsicrimination against left-handed people, for instance in providing only right-handed desks in schools -- serves them right for being so contrary.]

 

[TontoK]

Ilia has a reverse-direction spin in one of his exhibition skates, I think, and he's also done a reverse-direction double axel in one of those Instagram posts that he uses to highlight practice hijinks.

Of course, the spin wasn't as good as Jason's and the 2A wasn't as good as Rohene could do, but I doubt those are skills he's working on seriously. However the spin was better than the 2A (slow... slow... entry... and eeked out landing position), and I could see him including that as a level feature if he wants to.

 

[Mathman]

Ilia has a reverse-direction spin in one of his exhibition skates, I think, and he's also done a reverse-direction double axel in one of those Instagram posts that he uses to highlight practice hijinks.

That provides an interesting perspective on how the IJS views "difficulty." Ilia is the only skater who can do a quad Axel. This proves that a quad Axel is difficult. He might also be the only skater who can do a 2A+2A sequence in alternate directions. By the "how many people can do it" criterion, this deserves big rewards in terms of IJS base value (even if a few others are capable of training it, too.)

But all you get is 3.3 points for the first 2A and another 3.3 points for the second -- just the same as if you did them both in the same direction. A delayed single Axel brings in only the same points as a regular single Axel (1.1 points) , regardless of both difficulty and what it contributes to a program.

(This is not necessarily a criticism of the scoring system. It just shows the impossibility of anticipating and providing a base value for every blessed thing a skater might think of bringing to the ice.)

 

[4everchan]

^^
I just would like them to score the second jump of a combo higher if it is a difficult jump. Under 6.0, a 2loop3loop was regarded better than the 3l2l. This was lost with ijs. I think it would be fun to see 3x4t combos for instance... But that cannot happen under current code of points

 

[Arigato]

I think it would be fun to see 3x4t combos for instance... But that cannot happen under current code of points

Yuzu did a 4T+ 3A + SEQ at the 2019 WC. What's the current code say - he couldn't do it? Or did some wacko say you can't do a 3A before a 4T?

 

[Mathman]

Yuzu did a 4T+ 3A + SEQ at the 2019 WC. What's the current code say - he couldn't do it? Or did some wacko say you can't do a 3A before a 4T?

It's not that your can't do it. 4everchan's point was that the whole combo is more difficult if you put the harder of the two jumps last thn if you put the easier jump last. This extra difficulty is not rewrded in the IJS, which gives the same base value to 4T+3A as it does to 3A+4T.

 

[Arigato]

It's not that your can't do it. 4everchan's point was that the whole combo is more difficult if you put the harder of the two jumps last thn if you put the easier jump last. This extra difficulty is not rewrded in the IJS, which gives the same base value to 4T+3A as it does to 3A+4T.

I think which jump is "harder" depends on the skater. There are guys who can't do a decent 3A but have an easier time with a quad.

 

[TontoK]

^^
I just would like them to score the second jump of a combo higher if it is a difficult jump. Under 6.0, a 2loop3loop was regarded better than the 3l2l. This was lost with ijs. I think it would be fun to see 3x4t combos for instance... But that cannot happen under current code of points

Going into the way-back file. In Robin Cousins' Olympics, the SP combo had to include a 2L (I think). Of course, most skaters tacked the double on the back end. Robin did a 2L-3T. This SP also includes my very favorite step sequence of all time. It wouldn't score well now under IJS, but man, did it just sing.

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[Mathman]

Going into the way-back file. In Robin Cousins' Olympics, the SP combo had to include a 2L (I think). Of course, most skaters tacked the double on the back end. Robin did a 2L-3T. This SP also includes my very favorite step sequence of all time. It wouldn't score well now under IJS, but man, did it just sing.

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It took a little minute for me to get used to the bumblebee costume , but the skating, oh yeah!

Here is a detail from his LP (delayed Axel). Maybe along with a "choreographic spin" the new ISU rules should also allow a scored or leveled "choreographic jump."

1980 Winter Olympics Long Program - Robin Cousins

Robin Cousins narrowly defeats Jan Hoffmann and takes the gold medal at the 1980 Winter Olympic Games in Lake Placid after this long program placed 1st in th...

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[TallyT]

I think which jump is "harder" depends on the skater. There are guys who can't do a decent 3A but have an easier time with a quad.

There are guys whose difficulty with the 3A have affected the podium placings...

 

[Mathman]

To me the takeaway from all this is that small changes in the scoring rules are not going to affect the outcomes of competitions to any substantive degree. New rules or old, the big quadsters with adequate “everything else” will be positioned to overwhelm all rivals and to dominate podiums. Even a skater who presents 4T+3T and solo 4T, or 4T and 4S will be at a disadvantage relative to the elite 4Lz 4F, and 4Lo brigade.

Or course, they still have to deliver. You can’t win just by listing big jumps on your jump card. Mura attempted 4Lo. 4T, 4S and 4T+3T in the LP and 4S plus 4T+3T in the short. He likely would have made the podium but for multiple jump mistakes.

Nor do I expect much affect on the popularity of skating as a spectator sport. Some programs will be entertaining, some less so, and some "in the eye of the beholder."

 

[TontoK]

@Mathman a while back there was a rumor on the board... or maybe it was wishful thinking... that a choreo jump would return, and there was great jubilation amongst the silver-haired brigade (myself included) at the prospect of delayed axels making a comeback.

They were a program highlight for a lot of men and ladies.

We'll likely never see them in competition again because of low base-value. See also: Jill Trenary's one-foot axel combination.

While I like the transparency that IJS has brought, it has definitely killed off some originality and spark. I guess this is a continuation of @el henry 's comments about reverse direction spins and jumps. Cool moves, but not necessarily helpful to the scoreline.

 

[4everchan]

IJS has destroyed pairs even more... . Here's my two cents about choreo jump...how many delayed Axel do we want to see?

If the ISU is going to propose this, they need to give choices to skaters.. for instance, they can choose between a choreo jump, a choreo hydro blade, a choreo spiral, a choreo set of twizzles etc so that skaters select something they do well and fits the program

I am not disagreeing to @Mathman conclusions but I sincerely think one less jumping pass will be good.

 

[Mathman]

Here's my two cents about choreo jump...how many delayed Axel do we want to see?

Maybe a skater could choose between a delayed Axel or some other move, like a falling leaf dierectly into a inside-outside spread eagle, or something along the lines of stag jumps ot split jumps. GOE would emphasize how well it complements the choreography and matches the musical phrazing.

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[gkelly]

Maybe a skater could choose between a delayed Axel or some other move, like a falling leaf dierectly into a inside-outside spread eagle, or something along the lines of stag jumps ot split jumps. GOE would emphasize how well it complements the choreography and matches the musical phrazing.

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Under today's rules, they can include those kinds of things in the Choreo Sequence. Which is scored primarily on GOE.

Moves like split falling leaves (regular falling leaves are just small transitional hops), other split jumps or stag jumps, or spread eagles and similar gliding moves can be linked together as you describe in the choreo sequence as it currently exists. They can also be used independently as transitional moves between elements, to be scored in PCS only.

Full-revolution single jumps like split-flips and delayed axels would be risky to include early in a program as they might be interpreted as single jumps filling a jump box as 1F or 1A, which would take away an opportunity to include a higher base value jump in that slot. But the senior/junior FS choreo sequence rules do allow for double and lower jumps to be included as part of sequence. According to the current technical panel handbook, "Listed elements included in the Choreographic Sequence will not be called and will not occupy a box." So that is a safe place to include those kinds of jumps.

The end of the program after all the available jumps slots have already been filled with high-value jumps would also be safe for including low-revolution jumps as choreographic/transitional moves without sacrificing points elsewhere.

Perhaps if the number of jump elements for base value is capped at 6 jump passes, these types of moves are exactly what we will see (from skaters who like/are good at them) in the extra time available after the last jump pass.

 

[Mathman]

The end of the program after all the available jumps slots have already been filled with high-value jumps would also be safe for including low-revolution jumps as choreographic/transitional moves without sacrificing points elsewhere.

!!! Alina Zagitova coud have thrown in a few double jumps at the end of her Don Quixote routine, just to rub it in

Perhaps if the number of jump elements for base value is capped at 6 jump passes, these types of moves are exactly what we will see (from skaters who like/are good at them) in the extra time available after the last jump pass.

I hope it works out that way. To me, this is more toe-tapping, finger-snapping cool than a triple jump, and more exciting than a backflip. (Different strokes for different folks, of course.).

2017 GPF Men SP Jason Brown The room where it happens by Lin Manuel Miranda

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[TontoK]

(Different strokes for different folks, of course.).

Indeed. For me this highlights the problems with assessing artistry subjectively. This is one of my least favorite Jason programs ever, but others find it iconic.

On the flip side, I love his Simon and Garfunkel program... bowling shirt and all... and most others consider that to be not nearly as successful.

Personal tastes vary, of course, but on the whole, I appreciate haircut Jason much more than ponytail Jason, Riverdance excluded.