2024 Finlandia Trophy Women's Free Skate

[Dawn825]

Painfully agree. Imo Lindsay indeed IS a special skater.

She has nothing to lose by trying a new coach it seems to me

 

[TallyT]

Homegirl needs to move to Rafael Arutyunyan STAT! Realistically speaking, such a move really needed to happen at the beginning of this quad back in 2022-2023 to give her the best opportunity to go for the 2026 Olympic team. At this juncture, I fear it may be too late for her, unless she is planning to stick it out for 2030.

Who says he will be the one she needs? Every time a good skater seems to falter, people start urging that the current 'in' coach is the one to fix everything... maybe she could use a change, but not necessarily to a coach with bigger stars and priorities.

 

[withwings]

Who says he will be the one she needs? Every time a good skater seems to falter, people start urging that the current 'in' coach is the one to fix everything... maybe she could use a change, but not necessarily to a coach with bigger stars and priorities.

In my understanding museksk8r simply said his/her personal opinion. So he/she in no way indicated it as an only option for Lindsay! At least it is how I read the post.

 

[rabidline]

I'd say the other way round. This group made Rino look particularly good.

Why do I say so? Well, some comments on this thread made me curious and I re-watched some Patrick Chan at his best. Then Rino, again... I'd say a certain username in this forum will stay unchanged

But it's good to have Rino in the mix regardless. It's rare nowadays when skaters, men or women, showcase their edgework like she does. Fingers crossed for her to go to GP final.

It's a testament of how much what Rino brings to the table now stands out in the field, despite not holding a candle to the past. And the irony is, most fans wouldn't spare a second look on Rino if she hadn't landed all her jumps.

 

[Joekaz]

It's a testament of how much what Rino brings to the table now stands out in the field, despite not holding a candle to the past. And the irony is, most fans wouldn't spare a second look on Rino if she hadn't landed all her jumps.

Rino's skating always stands out. Its her jumps that are her problem. But she has the best edges of anyone including Sakamoto

 

[rabidline]

Rino's skating always stands out. Its her jumps that are her problem. But she has the best edges of anyone including Sakamoto

Oh, trust me, it stood out to me when I saw her live before she even skated her first ever JGP. It's just now that kind of skating is worth basically nothing (not that any number can quantify that kind of quality) unless she landed most of her jumps and do it consistently.

... although time helps... in the past, there were a certain kind of fans who hated Rino on first sight and immediately spread word about her being "overscored" (before she even got real senior international assignments) just because her coach is Machiko Yamada. Her skating skills and edge quality were deemed as worse than other Japanese women, she's a JSF favorite, and only corrupt judges would give her high scores. Rino struggled afterwards so she's not as relevant anymore to them, but now I'm glad Rino is able to show both her skating with clean skates to very vocal appreciation.

 

[Joekaz]

Oh, trust me, it stood out to me when I saw her live before she even skated her first ever JGP. It's just now that kind of skating is worth basically nothing (not that any number can quantify that kind of quality) unless she landed most of her jumps and do it consistently.

... although time helps... in the past, there were a certain kind of fans who hated Rino on first sight and immediately spread word about her being "overscored" (before she even got real senior international assignments) just because her coach is Machiko Yamada. Rino struggled afterwards so she's not as relevant anymore to them, but now I'm glad Rino is able to show both her skating with clean skates to a lot of appreciation.

To me you would have to be blind to not love her skating immediately. Lol Some people like hard working over achievers. Thats one reason I think Kaori is so popular. But I always prefer athletes with special natural talent. That's why I have always been a Higuchi fan, and also why as a Higuchi fan I fear Rino probably the most of the next generation girls.

 

[RafaelAstro]

If Amber doesn't deliver, we might have an all Japanese final.

Next week will be fierce. 2 places left and Amber, Mone, Rinka to fight for them. Chaeyeon and Kimmy also have a chance, but they need to win the competition.

Don't underestimate Rion

 

[rabidline]

To me you would have to be blind to not love her skating immediately. Lol Some people like hard working over achievers. Thats one reason I think Kaori is so popular. But I always prefer athletes with special natural talent. That's why I have always been a Higuchi fan, and also why as a Higuchi fan I fear Rino probably the most of the next generation girls.

I think fans like "personalities" that they can root for, from my observation the personality does take precedence over actual abilities (until they did something morally questionable, and even then). It helps if the skater can also land their jumps consistently and is always healthy enough to compete in most competitions.

But I also do like Kaori a lot because of her style of skating, and at the same show I watched Rino live I also watched Kaori skated clean and was very attracted to the speed and power she projects.

It helps that Kaori emerged as the frontrunner just as the Russian debacle (both war and doping) hit figure skating, so she became someone who most fans feel comfortable rooting for. Most importantly, Kaori is also not a threat to defeat a fan favorite, so while she does get overscoring and cheated jumps allegations, there's never any real /stake/ attached to it, because she's not exactly taking away anyone's medals, and no active competitive women have fans that are..... very intense about it. Even if they exist, it's usually one or two people and they don't move in a massive and organized way.

 

[Joekaz]

I think fans like "personalities" that they can root for, from my observation the personality does take precedence over actual abilities (until they did something morally questionable, and even then). It helps if the skater can also land their jumps consistently and is always healthy enough to compete in most competitions.

But I also do like Kaori a lot because of her style of skating, and at the same show I watched Rino live I also watched Kaori skated clean and was very attracted to the speed and power she projects.

It helps that Kaori emerged as the frontrunner just as the Russian debacle (both war and doping) hit figure skating, so she became someone who most fans feel comfortable rooting for. Most importantly, Kaori is also not a threat to defeat a fan favorite, so while she does get overscoring and cheated jumps allegations, there's never any real /stake/ attached to it, because she's not exactly taking away anyone's medals, and no active competitive women have fans that are..... very intense about it. Even if they exist, it's usually one or two people and they don't move in a massive and organized way.

Kaori definitely has charisma, resistance to injury, and incredible luck. Her speed is impressive, but speed has never been a huge factor in figure skating traditionaly. Nor has jump length. Traditionally the most important aspects of women's skating has been gracefulnes and jump height. So her strengths are praiseworthy indeed, but are mostly countered by her back stiffness and poor upper body carriage, and horrific takeoff positions, which somehow are overlooked in the scoring. Think about it. Before the Valieva fiasco and the subsequent Russian ban, coinciding with the Kihira injury, Kaori was a definite number 2 in Japan, despite being heavily favored by JSF with accompanying favorable scoring, even against Kihira. And she was zero threat to the Russians, unlike Kihira, and usually very lucky to even podium against them. But now she is going for her 4th title in a row despite being virtually the same skater she was when she wasn't even #1 in her own country. Very fortunate indeed. I would also argue that since handling pressure and being confident are a huge part of skating, that Kaori has a huge edge in knowing the judges will hold her up unless she completely falls apart, especially in domestic competition. Conversely, her opponents know that they need to be absolutely perfect to even have the slightest chance, which in skating usually leads to more mistakes. But as you say, skating fans are the ultimate bandwagon jumpers, so whoever the ISU annoints as the next chosen one, they will have a legion of new fans in no time. Lol

 

[rabidline]

Kaori definitely has charisma, resistance to injury, and incredible luck. Her speed is impressive, but speed has never been a huge factor in figure skating traditionaly. Nor has jump length. Traditionally the most important aspects of women's skating has been gracefulnes and jump height. So her strengths are praiseworthy indeed, but are mostly countered by her back stiffness and poor upper body carriage, and horrific takeoff positions, which somehow are overlooked in the scoring.

In a way, Kaori's rise coincides with the influx of new fans after 2022 Olympics, and some old fans who I observe have been vocal for not wanting "more princess programs" and welcomed Kaori's powerful, dynamic skating when she kept winning without the Russians. There are fans who do notice the lack of finesse in how she moves, but as a fan favorite she has more fans defending her now than in the past. (Mostly because she's not as relevant to the overall results in the past).

Think about it. Before the Valieva fiasco and the subsequent Russian ban, coinciding with the Kihira injury, Kaori was a definite number 2 in Japan, despite being heavily favored by JSF with accompanying favorable scoring, even against Kihira. And she was zero threat to the Russians, unlike Kihira, and usually very lucky to even podium against them. But now she is going for her 4th title in a row despite being virtually the same skater she was when she wasn't even #1 in her own country. Very fortunate indeed.

Kaori was number 2 because no one lands jumps like her and was an eligible senior in Japan. She rightfully was not named to the Worlds Team when she bombed at Nationals 2019. But other factors such as Wakaba's momentum being stalled by the pandemic and her 3A being a clear work in progress, Satoko's jumps disintegrating, Mao Shimada being too young, Mai needing time to comeback after her hiatus, and then of course the fates of skaters like Mako Yamashita, Mana Kawabe and Rino Matsuike, made it a very easy switch by the JSF when Rika's injury was confirmed to be too severe to compete at the Olympics.

And obviously then we know what happened at the Olympics, and after the Olympics. In a way, we would be in a bleaker world if Kaori had decided to retire after 2020 4CC (which she thought about it).

I would also argue that since handling pressure and being confident are a huge part of skating, that Kaori has a huge edge in knowing the judges will hold her up unless she completely falls apart, especially in domestic competition. Conversely, her opponents know that they need to be absolutely perfect to even have the slightest chance, which in skating usually leads to more mistakes. But as you say, skating fans are the ultimate bandwagon jumpers, so whoever the ISU annoints as the next chosen one, they will have a legion of new fans in no time. Lol

Unless you're a contrarian, people tends to feel more comfortable rooting for the popular and acceptable athletes everyone else also roots for. It helps that Kaori is mostly landing her jumps, is so far unproblematic, and people like her public personality and also exuberance on and off the ice. In Japan itself, Kaori is very much not that popular with the fans, mostly because she doesn't have the right look nor the right personality of, what you mentioned above, the "graceful" women skating champion.

 

[Joekaz]

In a way, Kaori's rise coincides with the influx of new fans after 2022 Olympics, and some old fans who I observe have been vocal for not wanting "more princess programs" and welcomed Kaori's powerful, dynamic skating when she kept winning without the Russians. There are fans who do notice the lack of finesse in how she moves, but as a fan favorite she has more fans defending her now than in the past. (Mostly because she's not as relevant to the overall results in the past).


Kaori was number 2 because no one lands jumps like her and was an eligible senior in Japan. She rightfully was not named to the Worlds Team when she bombed at Nationals 2019. But other factors such as Wakaba's momentum being stalled by the pandemic and her 3A being a clear work in progress, Satoko's jumps disintegrating, Mao Shimada being too young, Mai needing time to comeback after her hiatus, and then of course the fates of skaters like Mako Yamashita, Mana Kawabe and Rino Matsuike, made it a very easy switch by the JSF when Rika's injury was confirmed to be too severe to compete at the Olympics.

And obviously then we know what happened at the Olympics, and after the Olympics. In a way, we would be in a bleaker world if Kaori had decided to retire after 2020 4CC (which she thought about it).


It's not just skating fans, but people tends to feel more comfortable rooting for the popular and acceptable skaters everyone else also roots for. It helps that Kaori is mostly landing her jumps, and people connect with her personality and also exuberance on and off the ice. In Japan itself, Kaori is very much not that popular with the fans, mostly because she doesn't have the right look nor the right personality of, what you mentioned above, the "graceful" women skating champion.

I mostly agree with this, however JSF always supported Kaori over Rika(which I never understood), leading to the scores in Nationals being way closer than they should have been, even Rika losing when she botched some of her jumps. An interesting note on the bogus nature of ISU scoring is the World Championships the year before the last Olympics. Kaori performed well, but was scored significantly lower than she had usually been, and would later be again. She ended up 4th behind Karen Chen, remarkably, coincidentally when the US needed to qualify 3 girls for the next Olympics. Funny how that works. As for Satoko, her jumps were never good, JSF just began to call her on them when they decided to move on from her. And you notice that her PCS went down as well, which shouldn't be affected by UR calls unless they noticably affect her presentation. Almost as if PCS and Fed Support go hand in hand. Lol

 

[rabidline]

I mostly agree with this, however JSF always supported Kaori over Rika(which I never understood), leading to the scores in Nationals being way closer than they should have been, even Rika losing when she botched some of her jumps.

My take on this was that Kaori's jumps looked bigger than Rika (ignoring the take-off) and Rika was not consistent with her 3A and her other triples if she landed the 3A. There's a reason why Rika doesn't have even a junior Worlds medal while Mako Yamashita has. Ironically, the year Rika got more consistent with her 3A was also the year she got locked out of the gold and podium by the Kostornaia - Trusova - Scherbakova trio.

An interesting note on the bogus nature of ISU scoring is the World Championships the year before the last Olympics. Kaori performed well, but was scored significantly lower than she had usually been, and would later be again. She ended up 4th behind Karen Chen, remarkably, coincidentally when the US needed to qualify 3 girls for the next Olympics. Funny how that works.

I mean, it's obvious. Also notable in that Worlds 2021 was Rika breaking down in the FS, casting the very first seeds of doubt for her Japan #1 status and 2022 Olympics participation.

As for Satoko, her jumps were never good, JSF just began to call her on them when they decided to move on from her. And you notice that her PCS went down as well, which shouldn't be affected by UR calls unless they noticably affect her presentation. Almost as if PCS and Fed Support go hand in hand. Lol

To be fair, when Satoko was leading the Japanese women, none of the other women was landing their jumps as consistently as Satoko were landing hers, imperfect as they are. Once JSF had younger skaters with bigger jumps that can land them consistently like Rika and Kaori...

 

[Joekaz]

My take on this was that Kaori's jumps looked bigger than Rika (ignoring the take-off) and Rika was not consistent with her 3A and her other triples if she landed the 3A. There's a reason why Rika doesn't have even a junior Worlds medal while Mako Yamashita has. Ironically, the year Rika got more consistent with her 3A was also the year she got locked out of the gold and podium by the Kostornaia - Trusova - Scherbakova trio.

I mean, it's obvious. Also notable in that Worlds 2021 was Rika breaking down in the FS, casting the very first seeds of doubt for her Japan #1 status and 2022 Olympics participation.

To be fair, when Satoko was leading the Japanese women, none of the other women was landing their jumps as consistently as Satoko were landing hers, imperfect as they are. Once JSF had younger skaters with bigger jumps that can land them consistently like Rika and Kaori...

A couple of points here. The scores between Kihira and Sakamoto at Nats were closer than they should have been because Kaori was grossly overscored for the content she had, not because of anything Rika did or didn't do. Second, as for Satoko, in the Olympic year, while she was hurt, Wakaba was probably number 2 skater in the world behind Zagitova, whom most people felt she actually beat in Cup of China that year, and would be the only Japanese woman to qualify for Grand Prix Final. But her PCS scores didn't reflect much support, even causing a Russian commentator to wonder why her Fed didn't support her.

 

[rabidline]

A couple of points here. The scores between Kihira and Sakamoto at Nats were closer than they should have been because Kaori was grossly overscored for the content she had, not because of anything Rika did or didn't do.

Agree to disagree on this for me. To me, the preference for Kaori did not happen in a vacuum. Both at 2018 and 2019 Nationals the doors were left open by others for her to pass through and receive that favorable scoring, because she was lucky to visually have the better skates in comparison to others at the same competition.

Second, as for Satoko, in the Olympic year, while she was hurt, Wakaba was probably number 2 skater in the world behind Zagitova, whom most people felt she actually beat in Cup of China that year, and would be the only Japanese woman to qualify for Grand Prix Final. But her PCS scores didn't reflect much support, even causing a Russian commentator to wonder why her Fed didn't support her.

2017 Worlds, which her and Mai will forever bear the sins of.

 

[TT_Fin]

I think your further discussion belongs to Japanese skating thread as you are talking nowabout skaters who were not here. Thank you. @GS Forum Staff

 

[figureskatingandrainbows]

I think your further discussion belongs to Japanese skating thread as you are talking nowabout skaters who were not here. Thank you. @GS Forum Staff

Now they're arguing in the Japanese skating thread... there is no escape

maybe we should start a rule where you have to fight in PMs or something, or we can start a new section called the Arena where people just argue

 

[Joekaz]

Agree to disagree on this for me. To me, the preference for Kaori did not happen in a vacuum. Both at 2018 and 2019 Nationals the doors were left open by others for her to pass through and receive that favorable scoring, because she was lucky to visually have the better skates in comparison to others at the same competition.


2017 Worlds, which her and Mai will forever bear the sins of.

Ok. In regards to Kaori. I keep pointing out that Kaori has been unfairly getting preferential treatment for a long time. You seem to agree with me, but justify it by saying JSF had to pick someone to favor after Satoko and nobody else was doing good enough to be chosen. Did you ever consider to just not favor anyone and just score things fairly and pretend skating is a real sport for a change? In regards 2017 World's, Wakaba was a first year senior and only 16 during that season. She had a bad free skate, which is understandable at your first Worlds in your first senior season. Mai was fine there, and Hongo did very poorly as the replacement for Mao. Its completely unfair to blame the results on Higuchi. They could have blamed Satoko for choosing to get surgery on a nagging injury after Nationals instead of waiting till after Worlds to secure the 3 spots. But why blame anyone? You seem to understand that Kaori is the beneficiary of a very corrupt system. Ok, so we agree there. Where we seem to disagree is that I say that this corruption is wrong and you say it is fine and accept it. Or do you just see yourself as a realist and that's just skating politics?

 

[Joekaz]

Now they're arguing in the Japanese skating thread... there is no escape

maybe we should start a rule where you have to fight in PMs or something, or we can start a new section called the Arena where people just argue

We are having a discussion and agreeing on most things. Im just trying to understand his logic on where we disagree. There is nothing wrong with that on a blog such as this. Just everyone only agreeing with each other is pointless. As far as being in the wrong area, I agree with that. Sometimes discussions lead in unforseen directions and I apologize for that.

 

[withwings]

Now they're arguing in the Japanese skating thread... there is no escape

maybe we should start a rule where you have to fight in PMs or something, or we can start a new section called the Arena where people just argue

I do not think that there were any arguing, quite opposite- an exchange of opinions, a discussion and I would say quite respectful and constructive to some point.