Triple-Triple combos are worthless for most Women in the Long Program with the current rules

[Blades of Passion]

After 20 years of horrible rules that have been killing figure skating, the ISU flopped onto yet another way this quadrennial to make programs even uglier and less objectively sensical in the code of points: the introduction of +2Axel sequences being worth the same as any other kind of jump combo. So now we have been dealing with the nonsense of a 3Loop+2Axel being worth the same as a much more difficult 2Axel+3Loop, and the absolute atrocity of any (jump)+2Axel+2Axel existing - a sequence that never has great flow and ruins the artistic purpose of doing a +2Axel in the first place: a jump that should have explosive power at the end of another jump and act as a singular statement to end the sequence.

If you do not have a 3Axel or Quad, the highest base value possible in a Long Program can now be achieved with zero Triple-Triple or 2Axel+Triple combos:

3Lutz+2Toe (or 2Loop)
3Lutz
3Flip+2Toe (or 2Loop)
3Flip
3Loop
3Sal
3Toe+2Axel+2Axel

I wonder why so many women are still attempting the more difficult combos in their Long Program and exposing themselves to underrotation calls. Many competitors are even hurting the base value of their programs by not doing this jump layout. For example, Kaori Sakamoto does a 2Axel+1Loop+3Sal, which downgrades a 2Toe or 2Loop to that 1Lo. The judges don't use GOE or PCS correctly, so it's not as if the program layout with 3Toe+2Axel+2Axel is going to be punished in comparison.

 

[Mathman]

To me, it is visually unappealing when the skater takes too long to gather herself and regroup between jumps, especially in the +2A+2A case.. The whole flow and "cascade of jumps" effect is gone. Something like a 3F+2Lo+2T is much prettier. I would think this could be addressed Iin GOE as well as in Program Components.

 

[moonvine]

Spins. Spins are worthless.

 

[TT_Fin]

IMO choreo seq should have more value. Some skaters have really thought about it and show what they can do, some just do something easy because they have to. 2 points difference - if positive GOE - is too low.

 

[DancingCactus]

ISU rules are a weird mystery. But I happen to like +2A+2A combo since the Axel is my favourite jump. So no complaints from me there.

I rather they completely revamped how spins and other non-jump elements are scored.

 

[Mathman]

I think that BoP's point is that the layout he proposed carries a total of 45 base value points (not counting second half bonuses).
But if a skater attempts difficult triple-triples, the best she can do is something like

3Lz+3T
3F+3Lo
3Lz+2Lo
3T+Eu+3F
3S
2A
2A

which is worth only 44.6 points.

 

[Anna K.]

I wonder why so many women are still attempting the more difficult combos in their Long Program and exposing themselves to underrotation calls.

Skaters do have their self-esteem. They work hard to learn complicated elements and they want to prove to themselves and everybody else that they can do it. Sometimes, even an attempt to land a coveted element is worth more than a medal in their own eyes.

 

[lilimum]

I think that BoP's point is that the layout he proposed carries a total of 45 base value points (not counting second half bonuses).
But if a skater attempts difficult triple-triples, the best she can do is something like

3Lz+3T
3F+3Lo
3Lz+2Lo
3T+Eu+3F
3S
2A
2A

which is worth only 44.6 points.

that not possible, only two triples are allowed to repeat

 

[lilimum]

After 20 years of horrible rules that have been killing figure skating, the ISU flopped onto yet another way this quadrennial to make programs even uglier and less objectively sensical in the code of points: the introduction of +2Axel sequences being worth the same as any other kind of jump combo. So now we have been dealing with the nonsense of a 3Loop+2Axel being worth the same as a much more difficult 2Axel+3Loop, and the absolute atrocity of any (jump)+2Axel+2Axel existing - a sequence that never has great flow and ruins the artistic purpose of doing a +2Axel in the first place: a jump that should have explosive power at the end of another jump and act as a singular statement to end the sequence.

If you do not have a 3Axel or Quad, the highest base value possible in a Long Program can now be achieved with zero Triple-Triple or 2Axel+Triple combos:

3Lutz+2Toe (or 2Loop)
3Lutz
3Flip+2Toe (or 2Loop)
3Flip
3Loop
3Sal
3Toe+2Axel+2Axel

I wonder why so many women are still attempting the more difficult combos in their Long Program and exposing themselves to underrotation calls. Many competitors are even hurting the base value of their programs by not doing this jump layout. For example, Kaori Sakamoto does a 2Axel+1Loop+3Sal, which downgrades a 2Toe or 2Loop to that 1Lo. The judges don't use GOE or PCS correctly, so it's not as if the program layout with 3Toe+2Axel+2Axel is going to be punished in comparison.

the highes value without quads ad 3A would be something like
3S+2A+2A
3Lz
3Lz+3T
3F+3Lo
3F
2Lz
2Lz

 

[AlexBreeze]

If you do not have a 3Axel or Quad, the highest base value possible in a Long Program can now be achieved with zero Triple-Triple or 2Axel+Triple combos:

3Lutz+2Toe (or 2Loop)
3Lutz
3Flip+2Toe (or 2Loop)
3Flip
3Loop
3Sal
3Toe+2Axel+2Axel

It's not only BV thing. It also makes little sense to perform solo 2As since GOE is counted from the most expensive jump in a jumping element and it is advantageous to have each jumping element containing a triple jump.

I wonder why so many women are still attempting the more difficult combos in their Long Program and exposing themselves to underrotation calls.

I've seen many skaters who used the new rules to avoid 3+3s:
Riana Kadyrova
Agata Petrova
Maria Krasnozhenova
Ava Marie Ziegler
Sofia Vazhnova
Anna Pezzetta
Sara-Maude Dupuis

Although the first three girls ended up bringing 3+3s back into their programs. I think everyone has their own reasons. Some don't feel comfortable doing +2A+2A. Some use solo 2A to "rest".

 

[Mathman]

that not possible, only two triples are allowed to repeat

that not possible, only two triples are allowed to repeat

Good catch. I miscalculated my example.

Still, the point is that with only 5 different types of triples available, the skater cannot gain by doubling up with triple-triples and then have nothing to do in the other passes except to fizzle out with lower-valued jumps.

We can admire athletes who push themselves by doing hard stuff for no other reward than self-satisfaction, but the IJS should acknowledge their efforts, too.

 

[Mathman]

By the way, based on past discussions that we have had on this issue, Blades of Passion's remedy is to expand the scale of values to give base values for each combination based on its difficulty, which would presumably be higher than just the sum of each jump taken separately. He submitted a detailed proposal to Alexander Lakernik back when Lakernik was chairman of the ISU Technical Committee. Lakernik publicly acknowledge BoP's communication (by name), but in the end no such changes were implemented.

It would be cool to see a skater attempt a 2Lz + opposite foot/oppsite direction 2Lz combo. Jill Trenary (1990 world champion) had a dandy 1-foot Axel + triple Salchow.

 

[Blades of Passion]

the highes value without quads ad 3A would be something like
3S+2A+2A
3Lz
3Lz+3T
3F+3Lo
3F
2Lz
2Lz

That technically has slightly higher base value, but then you're ruining the GOE potential in your program by having 2Lz's, so it just ends up being worse than the program with no Triple-Triple.

 

[Mathman]

I think that the real problem is that the IJS is basically a paint-by-numbers deal. Every two years the ISU tweaks the numbers slightly and the artists rush to paint-by-the-new-numbers.

 

[lilimum]

That technically has slightly higher base value, but then you're ruining the GOE potential in your program by having 2Lz's, so it just ends up being worse than the program with no Triple-Triple.

the GOE is a percentage of the base value, and a 2Lz has a higher base value than 2Lo and 2T.

 

[Mathman]

Now I'm curious. Is there any top flight senior lady who puts 2 solo 2Lz's in her program. One?

 

[RatedPG]

That is a reason why I prefer the new rule: 6 jumping elements

Doesn’t the new rule favour those with triple triple jumps and ultra-c jumps?

 

[moonvine]

I think that the real problem is that the IJS is basically a paint-by-numbers deal. Every two years the ISU tweaks the numbers slightly and the artists rush to paint-by-the-new-numbers.

Of course they do. I've been complaining about this since the "new system" (which is hardly new anymore) was put in place. I don't think there is a way to fix it.

 

[Skating91]

I don't want to be controversial or be accused of being conspiratorial, but the raising of the age limit by two years, the introduction of the sequence rule, and the decision to exclude particular skaters for reasons completely unrelated to sport were due to particular skaters of one particular discipline being too successful (it is just my opinion this is not fact feel free to disagree with me). I won't mention who these skaters are or what those reasons were I don't want to go into that territory.

I will focus on the sequence rule, this was introduced to close the gap between skaters who jump quads but the skaters who jump quads have introduced this to their programs anyway (in 2022/23 not all of them had caught on and took advantage but now they all do). The thought was to give the non-quad skaters some big, cheap, easy points while the quad skaters waste their time with a quad-euler-triple salchow, but now the quad skaters just do a sequence because why wouldn't you? Zero risk and as many points.

Anyway, in non-quad competitions, it's a source of disproportionate, easy, cheap points. It's the easiest combo of them all. In a way it distorts non-quad competitions more since it disproportionately contributes more points to the final score. Unintended consequences I guess.

 

[saine]

I've seen many skaters who used the new rules to avoid 3+3s:
...
Sara-Maude Dupuis

With Sara-Maude, her 3-3 is a 3T-3T in the short. She was trying for a 3Lz-3T in the short last season, but it ended up as a 3Lz-2T instead. So it makes more sense to go for a 2A-3T in the free if only two triples can be repeated in the free skate.

(Yes, I realize that the linked protocol has her jumping a 2A-3T and a solo 3T, but based on her layout at Nationals she is aiming to replace that solo 3T with a 3Lz, I am hoping it goes well at 4CC )