Triple-Triple combos are worthless for most Women in the Long Program with the current rules

[Jeanie19]

The issue for me is that two jumps are becoming obsolete. 3S and 3Loop. And I blame it on the value. Its ooh the Lutz is worth more. So what? If GOE's were applied correctly a great 3S would be worth more than a wrong edge Lutz or Flip. And the loop combos should be worth more because they are harder. The issue is GOE. A beautiful 3A2A combo should not score the same as a 3A rest 2A.

 

[gkelly]

The issue for me is that two jumps are becoming obsolete. 3S and 3Loop. And I blame it on the value. Its ooh the Lutz is worth more. So what? If GOE's were applied correctly a great 3S would be worth more than a wrong edge Lutz or Flip.

3S base value is 4.3; positive GOE can go up to 2.15 (1.29 for an average of +3).

3Lze base value is 4.72. The GOE is supposed to be reduced by -3 to -4 for an e call, so the GOE should be negative, which would bring the total value lower than a good 3S.

3Fe base value is 4.24, so its value is less than the 3S even before GOE.

Keep in mind that you won't see all the reductions (in base value and GOE) reflected in the scoring box onscreen while the performance is in process, i.e., before the tech panel reviews. If you want to know what the true final score for each element was, you'll need to look at the protocols after the event is over.

And the loop combos should be worth more because they are harder.

I agree. There would need to be some more details to combination scoring to make this happen.

The issue is GOE. A beautiful 3A2A combo should not score the same as a 3A rest 2A.

That's true, and it should already be happening. Except in the case that judges find multiple positive aspects of a sequence that they reward before subtracting for a "rest" before the 2A, or not subtracting for it all because it doesn't represent an error, just something that you personally find less beautiful.

 

[Mathman]

The issue for me is that two jumps are becoming obsolete. 3S and 3Loop.

With the change to 6 jumping passes the ISU could consider modifying the Zayak rules to say that if you repeat two triple jumps, one must be a toe jump and one an edge jump. As the rules are now, most top contenders will do two Lutzes and two flips if they can, using four of their six passes on similar jumps. A better balanced program would be something like

3Lz+3T
3Lz
3F
3Lo+3Lo
3S+2Lo+2T
2A

This would score well without being impossibly demanding (for someone who can do both a 3Lz+3T and a 3Lo+3Lo), and plus it would be really, really pretty.

And if you do have a triple Axel (instead of a double), you just won the gold medal..

 

[RatedPG]

With the change to 6 jumping passes the ISU could consider modifying the Zayak rules to say that if you repeat two triple jumps, one must be a toe jump and one an edge jump. As the rules are now, most top contenders will do two Lutzes and two flips if they can, using four of their six passes on similar jumps. A better balanced program would be something like

3Lz+3T
3Lz
3F
3Lo+3Lo
3S+2Lo+2T
2A

This would score well without being impossibly demanding (for someone who can do both a 3Lz+3T and a 3Lo+3Lo), and plus it would be really, really pretty.

And if you do have a triple Axel (instead of a double), you just won the gold medal..

Yup. That is why I think six jumping elements is better. Makes the triple loop combo more vital, and I hope to see this combo make a return. I forgot the rules, but I think only one double combo and one triple combo is allowed.

So, ideal jumps would be:

3Lz 2A 2A
3F
3Lo
3S
3Lz 3T
3F

 

[TontoK]

How would it impact the situation to say that you can only repeat triple + axel jumps twice?

So, if you repeat the 2A, that means you can only repeat one triple?

Honestly, I'm just trying to game the system to get rid of the +2A +2A sequences, which I think are uniformly ugly.

 

[lilimum]

How would it impact the situation to say that you can only repeat triple + axel jumps twice?

So, if you repeat the 2A, that means you can only repeat one triple?

Honestly, I'm just trying to game the system to get rid of the +2A +2A sequences, which I think are uniformly ugly.

it could be solved by reducing the BV back to 70% - like it was before the +2A +2A inflation started. A sequence is easier to jump than a combo.
And I was looking forward for the rule that only 3 jumps of one type independant from the number of rotations is allowed. I thought it was planned to be introduced this season but seems like this didn*t happen. I personally don*t like programms with 4 axel or worse 4 Toeloops.

 

[Blades of Passion]

the GOE is a percentage of the base value, and a 2Lz has a higher base value than 2Lo and 2T.

The highest rated jump in a series determines what GOE scale is used. 2Lo and 2T in combo aren't using those GOE's, the jumping pass is using the GOE scale of the Triple jump in that combo, whereas a solo 2Lz gets scored on its lower GOE value. Hence, the program you suggested with Triple-Triple's hurts the skater's scoring potential. A program with no Triple-Triple scores higher.

 

[Mathman]

The highest rated jump in a series determines what GOE scale is used. 2Lo and 2T in combo aren't using those GOE's, the jumping pass is using the GOE scale of the Triple jump in that combo, whereas a solo 2Lz gets scored on its lower GOE value.

I think that the argument about GOE is more relevant to the issue of “losing” GOE on a triple jump in combination.

3Lz+2T with +1 GOE = 5.90 +1.3 +0.59 = 7.79
Solo 3T with +1 GOE = 4.20 + 0.42 = 4.62
Total for two passes = 12.41

3Lz+3T with +1 GOE = 5.90 + 4.20 + 0.59 = 10.69
Solo 2Lz with 0 GOE = 2.10
Total for two passes = 12.79

Neither the 2T or the 2Lz contributed to GOE, but the triple-triple still ekes out a slim victory, even while giving up the 0.42 GOE on the triple toe.

 

[Mathman]

How would it impact the situation to say that you can only repeat triple + axel jumps twice?

So, if you repeat the 2A, that means you can only repeat one triple?

This would be consistent with the ISU scale of values and supporting documents. The 2A is listed as the "lowest triple." It is not grouped with the double jumps as the "highest double."

 

[lilimum]

The highest rated jump in a series determines what GOE scale is used. 2Lo and 2T in combo aren't using those GOE's, the jumping pass is using the GOE scale of the Triple jump in that combo, whereas a solo 2Lz gets scored on its lower GOE value. Hence, the program you suggested with Triple-Triple's hurts the skater's scoring potential. A program with no Triple-Triple scores higher.

I got it.

 

[AlexBreeze]

The highest rated jump in a series determines what GOE scale is used. 2Lo and 2T in combo aren't using those GOE's, the jumping pass is using the GOE scale of the Triple jump in that combo, whereas a solo 2Lz gets scored on its lower GOE value. Hence, the program you suggested with Triple-Triple's hurts the skater's scoring potential. A program with no Triple-Triple scores higher.

lilimum's content with everything getting +3 is 55.87.
Something like Ava Marie Ziegler's content with everything getting +3 is 55.74.
(I've ignored the second half bonus).

So it doesn't ruin the scoring potential. And, what's more, 3+3s allow to backload more jumps. But the advantage is so low that it's not comparable to the complexity of these combinations.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Neither the 2T or the 2Lz contributed to GOE, but the triple-triple still ekes out a slim victory, even while giving up the 0.42 GOE on the triple toe.

That's just with +1 GOE though. The more GOE someone can get, the worse the Triple-Triple gets for their score. Considering that most women are also less likely to get good GOE on a Triple-Triple than a solo Triple, well...

lilimum's content with everything getting +3 is 55.87.
Something like Ava Marie Ziegler's content with everything getting +3 is 55.74.

That skater doesn't do +2Lo combos. If someone is capable of a +3Loop, then obviously they can do +2Lo instead.

Ironically it's the 2Lutz+3Loop that provides the highest possible scoring potential:

3Lutz
3Flip
3Sal
3Toe
--- (backload bonus)
3Lutz+2Axel+2Axel
2Lutz+3Loop
3Flip+2Loop

2Lutz+3Toe is more realistic to get high GOE though, and only loses 0.07 points from the slightly lesser backloading bonus by switching the placement of the 3Loop and 3Toe. I think for most people the 2Lutz+3Toe is still not going to be the best plan though. Anyone who has an edge issue on the lutz is automatically disqualified, and most people will have less consistency by including a backend 3Toe combo and needing to move the +2Axel+2Axel onto the end of a more difficult jump.

Also regarding these backend axel combos, the (jump)+2Axel+2Toe that people have been doing is always ugly too, or at least underwhelming.

 

[Mathman]

2Lz+3Lo would be cool even if the 2Lz counted for nothing more than an unusual entry to a 3Lo.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Interesting that the highest BV doesn't involve a 3-3, and certainly something that should be looked at. Agree too that combos that are harder should be worth more (2A+3L is obviously harder than a 3L+2A)

I do think though that a judge will give more credence to a program that has one or more -3X combos as it's generally viewed as 'harder', the same way a program with more quads is, for all intents and purposes, "harder" than a program with only triples. If you don't have a XX-3X combo somewhere, in the women's event in particular where there are few 3A/quads, your PCS doesn't seem to be as high (or as maxed out as it could be) because you're perceived as playing it safe. There are exceptions like Jason Brown or Carolina Kostner who have been able to get away with easier layout but most skaters don't have the choreo/ability to make up for that.

I do like the +2A+2A in pairs - it's a good way to get base value and it actually is a good show of unison, athleticism and control when it's done correctly.

 

[Blades of Passion]

2Lz+3Lo would be cool even if the 2Lz counted for nothing more than an unusual entry to a 3Lo.

Would be some Midori Ito realness.

I do like the +2A+2A in pairs - it's a good way to get base value and it actually is a good show of unison, athleticism and control when it's done correctly.

It's especially gross in pairs. Never creates any kind of meaningful picture on the ice, only looks mechanical and halts the performance. Doing a +3Toe+2Loop combination is far more difficult (never been done to date) and more exciting, and yet that is worth less. Even a +2Loop+2Loop combo (which has also never been done to date) is more difficult than a +2Axel+2Axel sequence, and the more realistic +2Toe+2Loop (which was still exceedingly rare) is also preferable, and yet that is hilariously worth less than doing just one +2Axel.

 

[Jontor]

A beautiful 3A2A combo should not score the same as a 3A rest 2A.

A 3A+2A combo actually scores less because you don't get GOE on the 2A. If you do a solo 3A and a solo 2A you get GOE on both bumps.

 

[Jontor]

Yup. That is why I think six jumping elements is better. Makes the triple loop combo more vital, and I hope to see this combo make a return. I forgot the rules, but I think only one double combo and one triple combo is allowed.

So, ideal jumps would be:

3Lz 2A 2A
3F
3Lo
3S
3Lz 3T
3F

Hmm. I am thinking of Shcherbakova's olympic winning layout which was max BV with what she got at the time:

4F+3T
4F
2A
2A
3F+eu+3S
3Lz+3Lo
3Lz

with new rules something like:

4F+3T
4F
2A
3F
3Lz+3Lo+2Lo
3Lz

I feel it would be hard to keep the 3Lo combo. Maybe do a +eu+3S instead. Either way, 3S or the 3Lo is gone.
OR, do the 3S instead of the 2A, and add a +2A either after the first quad or the 3Lz+3Lo combo.

Hmmm.

 

[Mathman]

A 3A+2A combo actually scores less because you don't get GOE on the 2A. If you do a solo 3A and a solo 2A you get GOE on both bumps.

But it uses up two jumping passes.

Even a +2Loop+2Loop combo (which has also never been done to date) is more difficult than a +2Axel+2Axel sequence,

I once saw Shizuka Arakawa (in exhibition) do something like 23 2-Loops in sequence. Kurt ( "Superman ankles") Browning had a show program to Linda Ronstadt's cover of "It's so easy" where every time she said the words "It's so easy" (18 times in the full recording) he did a big easy double Axel.

 

[Mathman]

4F+3T
4F
2A
3F
3Lz+3Lo+2Lo
3Lz

To me, this makes for a very imbalanced program .Three Flips and two Lutzes in 6 passes (drat that required Axel)).. Anna Shcherbakova could pull it off because of her performance and choreography skills. I think that the average skater -- those myriad ladies that have a quad flip -- would have a hard time weaving that into a satisfying program instead of an obstacle course.

 

[Jontor]

To me, this makes for a very imbalanced program .Three Flips and two Lutzes in 6 passes (drat that required Axel)).. Anna Shcherbakova could pull it off because of her performance and choreography skills. I think that the average skater -- those myriad ladies that have a quad flip -- would have a hard time weaving that into a satisfying program instead of an obstacle course.

Yes, we would probably never see those super high BVs that Shcherbakova and Trusova had Olympic season ever again in our lifetime. So this exercise to maximize a Shcherbakova program is kind of redundant.