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Replay Lounge 2025 Skate Canada

Replay Lounge
Lariko had a point in highlighting the smallness and remoteness of Saskatoon, this may affect attendance of the general public who just wishes to have an idea of what a Figure Skating competition looks like live (if they ever watched some on TV or SNS) or just a passtime which happens to be next door, because they won't travel; one can understand Skate Canada if they're a bit out of cash for organising Skate Canada International in Saskatoon because this general public is unlikely to wish to pay more than a movie theatre ticket for a half-day of competition, and venues and hotels in large conurbations are probably much more expensive. It's only if they can afford to prepare the future that they will consider that in this casual public, maybe 1% will start being invested in the sport in a way or another.

Smallness? Saskatoon 2025 Population 316,342. It's a hub for agriculture and technology. The 2025 population for Kelowna, the city where 2019 Skate Canada was held, is almost half of Saskatoon at 165,907 and it was a full house. You either have an interest in who is skating or you do not.

On a side note - Lake Placid N.Y. hosted the 1980 Olympics. Does it get any smaller or remote than Lake Placid in the Adirondack Mountains? Maybe 2,500 population.
 
The sport does NOT have the drawing power anymore - sadly. And that's an ISU problem - not an individual skater's problem.
It doesn't have drawing power because people skate like robots now.

It's an ISU problem with the bad rules and bad judging creating bland programs and competitors who don't need to think about artistry much, but also an individual skater problem. People who have soul and artistry will find ways to get some of it into their performances. When you don't have it in the first place, you're not going to captivate people. Ilia could possibly win 2 Olympics and 7 Worlds in a row in the coming years, making him the most dominate male skater ever on paper, but he'll never sell shows like Hanyu has.
 
Well, if anyone does not want to discuss attendance, they should not bring it up themselves and if they do, they might be in for a reality check.

Where I live, I watch GP on national TV. Shrinking viewership over the last few years, attendance problems, resulting financial problems are being overtly discussed during comps by TV commentators, and nobody thinks it impolite or inappropriate, or that it should be silenced out not to hurt someone's gentle ego. It is just the reality, without cover up. We were told, for example, by our commentators that last year GPF ticket price had to be cut down very last minute to 50 EUR to put those people in the seats so that you did not watch empty stalls. No, not per day. EUR 50 per whole 3-day event. And still, it was not full anyway.
And I understand this is a borderline Orwellian thought-crime but one might just wonder that maybe, maybe the public gaining or losing interest in an event might have something to do with what's being shown during this event. Especially if this event was full and difficult to get into just a few years ago, and now it is not any more.
As for hurting feelings, I think coming out onto the ice, skaters see these empty stalls themselves, so they do not really need to read GS to .know
They have also seen these stalls a few years ago so they can compare. Even more. We know from some interviews that they discuss it among themselves in the locker rooms, and they do not really need our posts to initiate these discussions, their own eyes and brains are enough....
 
Not if that person has repeatedly engaged in it themselves. Posting history is easy to access. Once again, double standards will not work. I can't make this any more clear. Further, just because person A doesn't like person B's post about a skater, doesn't mean the post was disparaging, hateful, or any other word one cares to use when trying to silence dissent. That tactic won't work either. This isn't a cult, it's a discussion forum. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but everyone is not entitled to pronounce themselves the final arbiter of what a member's intent is when they post. Only the author of a post knows their own intent.
No, it's not a cult. Believe me, we know that when we see it.
 
Smallness? Saskatoon 2025 Population 316,342. It's a hub for agriculture and technology. The 2025 population for Kelowna, the city where 2019 Skate Canada was held, is almost half of Saskatoon at 165,907 and it was a full house. You either have an interest in who is skating or you do not.

On a side note - Lake Placid N.Y. hosted the 1980 Olympics. Does it get any smaller or remote than Lake Placid in the Adirondack Mountains? Maybe 2,500 population.
The rink is very far in Saskatoon. Location is important. Kelowna has a good figure skating club too. It's multifactorial. Calgary Junior worlds was during a winter vortex and not easy access by transit... So it was empty. Yet Calgary is a big city.
 
Ilia could possibly win 2 Olympics and 7 Worlds in a row in the coming years, making him the most dominate male skater ever on paper, but he'll never sell shows like Hanyu has.
But here's the thing. We can't blame Ilia Malinin for not being Yuzuru Hanyu. We can't blame Yuma Kagiyama for not being Hanyu. We can't blame Adam Siao Him Fa for not being Hanyu. Lots of people in the world are not Yuzuru Hanyu.

Can we blame the ISU that these skaters are not Yuzuru Hanyu? Hanyu completed under (more or less) the same scoring rules and the same judging system as the present guys do, so that can't be it. It seems unrealistic to expect a new GOAT every year, whatever the ISU might wish for.
 
But here's the thing. We can't blame Ilia Malinin for not being Yuzuru Hanyu. We can't blame Yuma Kagiyama for not being Hanyu. We can't blame Adam Siao Him Fa for not being Hanyu. Lots of people in the world are not Yuzuru Hanyu.

Can we blame the ISU that these skaters are not Yuzuru Hanyu? Hanyu completed under (more or less) the same scoring rules and the same judging system as the present guys do, so that can't be it. It seems unrealistic to expect a new GOAT every year, whatever the ISU might wish for.
I don't want any skater to be the resurrection of Yuzuru Hanyu. Why would I want that? I can watch YouTubes of him all day long. I don't want them to be a reincarnation of John Curry, or Toller Cranston, or Michelle Kwan, or Davis and White, or the Protopopovs or anyone else. I want them to be themselves, to find joy in skating and to allow me to share in that joy vicariously.

My favorite Yuzuru program isn't one that is top of list for most of his fans - it is the Prince short program. I felt the joy in that. He lived that program, and through his skating, I lived it, too.

My favorites cross the spectrum in terms of their styles. The thing they have in common is that they have/had a vision of what they want to contribute to the sport, and their commitment makes me love figure skating more.

They excel at what you phrase as "this is me, skating."

Edit: And GOAT arguments are pointless.
 
People who have soul and artistry will find ways to get some of it into their performances. When you don't have it in the first place, you're not going to captivate people. Ilia could possibly win 2 Olympics and 7 Worlds in a row in the coming years, making him the most dominate male skater ever on paper, but he'll never sell shows like Hanyu has.

Captivate is the operative word. It's not something that happens often. Years ago a female skater didn't complete her OLYG jumps well. She even went so far as to mouth the following words when she finished: "I'm sorry." And yet . . . she still captivated. Everyone talked about her program - a tribute to the people of Sarajevo. It was moving. Even after all these years people still say they remember the performance. It's not something that can be taught, it's within. That woman was Katarina Witt.
 
Regarding figure skating (and by extension Ilia) drawing power, I think it's possible for there to be some changes after this season because for the first time in 8 years, we will have a real, non-pandemic Winter Olympics. The 2024 Summer Olympics also had a pretty quiet lead-up, but when it hit, I realize just how much a proper Olympics can do to rejuvenate a sport popular with 4-year audience, and their athletes too.

As someone who really started to properly follow skating in 2018 because of the Olympics, there may just be new people who will enjoy the figure skating that we have right now, as it is. They will not hang out with us here though 😁

Ilia is also only 3,5 years into his international senior career, with an almost non existent international junior career due to COVID. When we think about past greats, where were they in 3,5 years into their senior career? And that was in eras where figure skating is better covered. We all know Olympics changes lives- not even the gold medal but even participating in it. I won't write out Ilia's chances to start connecting with wider public until Milano Cortina is completed and he finished his programs.
 
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As for Ilia Malinin not being Yuzuru Hanyu, I don't think anyone is meaning it so literally as some people choose to discuss and negate here. It is called metaphors, people :)

What I meant, for example, is that he does not have a similar drawing power, a similar appeal to crowds. nor similar performance qualities. He might be a completely different skater and have it on a similar level. He does not. After 2 world titles and all the 4A hype, we can more or less safely say that. It is not about winning Olympics, it will not change anything by now. We have an OGM every 4 years. There are some OGMs who have it and some who don't, and everyone needs to live with it. Not every Grand Slam winner is Roger Federer or Rafa Nadal by default, and it is not just about the number of Slams they won. Not every champion is simultaneously a superstar of their sport. So let's not pretend they are, and let's not insist others pretend as well, that's all.
And one more thing. Being a new Yuzuru Hanyu is no one's obligation but also no one's human right. It is no insult then, nor a cruel attack, to say someone is not. As a bottom line, it is stating the obvious. Metaphorically, it is saying they don't have the qualities that make Yuzu the most admired skater on the planet. Neither way it is an insult. Unless you really think they are, or wish they were :)
 
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What I meant, for example, is that he [Ma;inin]does not have a similar drawing power, a similar appeal to crowds. nor similar performance qualities.... :)
*sigh* Poor me, I am so misunderstood. I have been trying to say this over and over, without success.

Yes, that is precisely the point. Yuzuru has his thing, others have theirs. It's all good. I'm glad that thousands of fans buy tickets to Yuzuru shows. Some fans -- alas. fewer and decreasing in number -- like other skaters, too. I do not understand why this is a contentious topic. What are we arguing about?
 
I mean, there is a giant difference between being fans of a single character, and being a fan of the sport. I become a fan of figure skating because Alina Zagotova and Shoma Uno impressed the heck out of me in 2018 Olympics. Both are gone, but I watch juniors, internationals, Russians and would watch Japanese and Americans too if they let us watch it. I don't walk out on FS in a huff because someone I like concluded their career or struggles. Because, like, I love FS and competitions. If a GP stage is accessible and you can buy tickets to it, I will go. I went to Calgary's JWC making plans on the last day in case our car can't last 10 hours in -40 something cold on the open parking lot withiut plugin. I went to SkateAmerica mid covid having to take a covid test between two programs without a car in las vegas so i could fly home (and risking not to fly if I tested positive!)

Worlds, nah, not again, but GP is great. Saskatoon worked well for us, so we went. Osaka actually would have worked too, and GPF in Nagano maybe, but with the way they sell tickets in Japan, I am sorry but it sucks.

I don't sit there and mudsling all the skaters because they are not like Uno or Zagitova, though I still love Uno and Zagitova. I watch them and cheer for the new guys. I don't whine that the rules change. I learn new rules. Because I follow the sport.
 
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I mean, there is a giant difference between being fans of a single character, and being a fan of the sport.
There is. But both kinds of fans are all right with me. If a person is an intense fan of a particular skater and less interested in anyone else... OK.

If you feast instead at the vast smorgasbord that figure skating offers, including juniors, local club shows. synchro... that's great, too.
 
We can't blame Ilia Malinin for not being Yuzuru Hanyu. Can we blame the ISU that these skaters are not Yuzuru Hanyu? Hanyu completed under (more or less) the same scoring rules and the same judging system as the present guys do, so that can't be it.
It's not about Hanyu specifically. The sport used to have many competitors who captivated audiences. Now it has none, as the skaters are not focusing on the art of the programs and necessity of selling a performance to an audience. It's been stamped out by a system that has killed real footwork sequences and turned the concept of choreography into an AI-like question of how many turns you can fit inbetween elements. The ISU can be blamed for the program requirements and scoring mediocre artistry so high.

Hanyu developed as a skater idolizing the skaters of the 2002-2010 era. People who were performing while competing and had distinct personalities on the ice - Lambiel, Takahashi, Buttle, Yagudin, Plushenko, Weir, Preaubert, Abbott, Contesti, Ponsero, Kozuka, Verner. Even someone who was allegedly "all about the jumps" like Joubert had an absolutely magnetic presence and good showmanship, or someone like Kevin van der Perren who managed to have a couple memorable programs. Hanyu's biggest influences can clearly be seen with Weir and Plushenko, bringing some of Weir's introspectiveness (and costumes) and some of Plushenko's brashness.

Fernandez is another person who had enough of that "performance is paramount" foundation to keep some artistry alive in his programs. Or someone like Florent Amodio, who briefly was able to, before being overwhelmed by the ever increasing AI-ification of how things needed to be done in order to be competitive. Jason Brown was able to manage some wonderful programs too, but all of his best programs were created in the 2010-2016 period (thanks to Rohene Ward).

The situation after 2018 has become dire with 30 seconds being chopped out of the Men's Long Programs, while they are expected to do as many quads as possible and include a disgustingly clunky and laborious "footwork sequence" in their program, wherein everyone has to do all of the same turns, in both directions. It's not interesting and it kills the potential of every program. Not to mention the spin requirements. All the while, nobody is truly caring about the GLIDE of what ice skating is supposed be, of maintaining an attractive or interesting body position at all times, of creating a vision on ice, a character, an emotion, an audience connection. Hanyu himself never reached his potential as a competitive performer, because already since 2011 the rules for footwork sequences had started becoming worse.
 
I don't believe anyone who takes every occasion to undermine one of the greatest athletes of the sport is a fan of this sport, no matter how many times they will claim otherwise. They are just fans of rivalling athletes, that's all.
If they were true fans of the sport, they would be able to appreciate all its greats, not just the ones they personally are fans of. :nod:
 
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It's not about Hanyu specifically. The sport used to have many competitors who captivated audiences. Now it has none, as the skaters are not focusing on the art of the programs and necessity of selling a performance to an audience. It's been stamped out by a system that has killed real footwork sequences and turned the concept of choreography into an AI-like question of how many turns you can fit inbetween elements. The ISU can be blamed for the program requirements and scoring mediocre artistry so high.

Hanyu developed as a skater idolizing the skaters of the 2002-2010 era. People who were performing while competing and had distinct personalities on the ice - Lambiel, Takahashi, Buttle, Yagudin, Plushenko, Weir, Preaubert, Abbott, Contesti, Ponsero, Kozuka, Verner. Even someone who was allegedly "all about the jumps" like Joubert had an absolutely magnetic presence and good showmanship, or someone like Kevin van der Perren who managed to have a couple memorable programs. Hanyu's biggest influences can clearly be seen with Weir and Plushenko, bringing some of Weir's introspectiveness (and costumes) and some of Plushenko's brashness.

Fernandez is another person who had enough of that "performance is paramount" foundation to keep some artistry alive in his programs. Or someone like Florent Amodio, who briefly was able to, before being overwhelmed by the ever increasing AI-ification of how things needed to be done in order to be competitive. Jason Brown was able to manage some wonderful programs too, but all of his best programs were created in the 2010-2016 period (thanks to Rohene Ward).

The situation after 2018 has become dire with 30 seconds being chopped out of the Men's Long Programs, while they are expected to do as many quads as possible and include a disgustingly clunky and laborious "footwork sequence" in their program, wherein everyone has to do all of the same turns, in both directions. It's not interesting and it kills the potential of every program. Not to mention the spin requirements. All the while, nobody is truly caring about the GLIDE of what ice skating is supposed be, of maintaining an attractive or interesting body position at all times, of creating a vision on ice, a character, an emotion, an audience connection. Hanyu himself never reached his potential as a competitive performer, because already since 2011 the rules for footwork sequences had started becoming worse.
I actually agree with this whole point 😅 I have heard many conversations between my favorites about how their favorite era is that era. And how the current scoring system is not allowing them to even think about improving themselves to be who they want to be when they watched those skaters, because all their time and effort are spent working and maintaining elements the need the most to score high, while any show of personality doesn't translate to enough points that matter, unless the difficult jumps are landed, the levels of spins and steps are reached.

And also it's why I don't blame skaters who are doing their best to score the most with the current scoring system. I don't feel right accusing them for not caring about skating, just because they get scored leniently. I also don't feel right wishing that they will never reach the heights of popularity their predecessors have, or financial success the past skaters have achieved. It's a completely different world out there, and the path upwards may be different or may not exist at all. And it's not the skaters' fault.
 
I also don't feel right wishing that they will never reach the heights of popularity their predecessors have, or financial success the past skaters have achieved. It's a completely different world out there, and the path upwards may be different or may not exist at all. And it's not the skaters' fault.
I don't think anyone here talked about "wishing" they never reach the heights of their predecessors. Saying "I don't think he will do it" is not a wish, it's a prediction. Actually I don't think any of the current crop in senior Men will become a superstar, just because they do not have the tools, the skills and the charisma to captivate the crowds big enough and for long enough. My wishes have nothing to do with it. They may prove me wrong. But it is not about wishing. just about realistic assessment as opposed to "wishful thinking".
Whether it is their fault or not is a different question.
But superstars are rare birds. Not every champion, or even multi-champion, is destined to be one.
 
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