Could Kwan in her prime beat a clean Yu Na Kim

[pangtongfan]

Sasha did well since she had the WOW factor with her extreme flexability, very pretty positions, which led to very strong spins, very strong spirals (if you ignore the lack of edge depth and ice coverage), and some nice in between moments. In terms of things like jump technique, stroking technique, edge quality, basics, she indeed had little technical skill by the standards of the elite World level of the sport. If she was scored properly she would have gotten 5 or lower in skating skills for nearly every performance she did. That she got equal or higher skating skills scores to people like Arakawa and Suguri was embarassing, and a sign of the often irresponsible PCS judging, and judges unwillingess to differentiate between the various components.

As I mentioned the 03-06 quad was the most open one ever. There was no defined leader. It was a combination of aging holdover stars who ruled the 96-2002 period (Kwan and Slutskaya) who held on past their primes only for another Olympic Gold try, second tier challengers who were mostly erratic as well (Suguri, Sokolova), and out of the blue surprises (Arakawa).

Sasha was the only touted potential global winner who was actually in her prime. If she was half as good as the was projected she should have had an easy ride, perhaps the easiest in history, to all the big titles during this quad, yet she couldnt even win a measley one. She couldnt even beat Meissner to win a World title. And the reason for this was mostly her suspect technique which led to falls and other mistakes in competition, even with the judges mostly overlooking some of her glaring flaws I referred to.

 

[ks777]

Sasha had one of the best spins.. that's a technical skill. She just didn't have the consistancy on the jumps but that's about it. Other than that, she had it all.

 

[Tonichelle]

lack of ice coverage on spirals? saw her live several times at nationals - girl covered the ice while warping her body into those impossible positions.

 

[Layfan]

Sasha had one of the best spins.. that's a technical skill. She just didn't have the consistency on the jumps but that's about it. Other than that, she had it all.

Yeah, I don't get how great spins aren't a skill. Or the ability to do complicated and explosive straight line footwork that took her clear from one end of the rink to the other. Her jumps weren't the highest and her jumping technique wasn't the most secure. But she did have tight rotations in the air, and as usual, good in-air positions.

 

[ks777]

Sasha did well since she had the WOW factor with her extreme flexability, very pretty positions, which led to very strong spins, very strong spirals (if you ignore the lack of edge depth and ice coverage), and some nice in between moments. In terms of things like jump technique, stroking technique, edge quality, basics, she indeed had little technical skill by the standards of the elite World level of the sport. If she was scored properly she would have gotten 5 or lower in skating skills for nearly every performance she did. That she got equal or higher skating skills scores to people like Arakawa and Suguri was embarassing, and a sign of the often irresponsible PCS judging, and judges unwillingess to differentiate between the various components.

As I mentioned the 03-06 quad was the most open one ever. There was no defined leader. It was a combination of aging holdover stars who ruled the 96-2002 period (Kwan and Slutskaya) who held on past their primes only for another Olympic Gold try, second tier challengers who were mostly erratic as well (Suguri, Sokolova), and out of the blue surprises (Arakawa).

Sasha was the only touted potential global winner who was actually in her prime. If she was half as good as the was projected she should have had an easy ride, perhaps the easiest in history, to all the big titles during this quad, yet she couldnt even win a measley one. She couldnt even beat Meissner to win a World title. And the reason for this was mostly her suspect technique which led to falls and other mistakes in competition, even with the judges mostly overlooking some of her glaring flaws I referred to.

I have to ask, are you a skater or judge? How well do you know about " skating skills"? Sasha does have good stroking technique, in my eyes. Of course I am not a judge or andvanced figure skater but I do skate and have taken skating lessons from figure skating coach. I love how Sasha does her cross under. She does it just like Yuka Sato. As for her flat edge on the spiral, I think when you have your leg extended that much, it's so easy to lose balance and edge so that's why I think she is more on the flat than Michelle.
I do agree that her lutz/flip technique isn't the best.

 

[dwiggin3]

Sasha had one of the best spins.. that's a technical skill. She just didn't have the consistancy on the jumps but that's about it. Other than that, she had it all.

I keep remembering watching her live at worlds in DC where she was so far up on her toe-pick and then eventually fell over and out of her spin. I've watched Cohen several times live and up close and more often that not, her spins were not well centered and she wobbled a great deal.

IMHO, contorting herself into unusual positions while managing to remain upright is not so much of a skill as it is a trick. Yes, we can play semantics with regards to the vocabulary we use but in my personal opinion - which is based on my own personal competitive skating experiences, watching her live several times and of course, watching her on TV, she lacked a great deal of technique in many, many areas. I will however, concede that she was able to hang onto some pretty difficult footwork...however, upon closer examination of the edge quality and control, it was not secure and I think her limberness was was kept her upright.

We shall just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Layfan]

I keep remembering watching her live at worlds in DC where she was so far up on her toe-pick and then eventually fell over and out of her spin. I've watched Cohen several times live and up close and more often that not, her spins were not well centered and she wobbled a great deal.

IMHO, contorting herself into unusual positions while managing to remain upright is not so much of a skill as it is a trick. Yes, we can play semantics with regards to the vocabulary we use but in my personal opinion - which is based on my own personal competitive skating experiences, watching her live several times and of course, watching her on TV, she lacked a great deal of technique in many, many areas. I will however, concede that she was able to hang onto some pretty difficult footwork...however, upon closer examination of the edge quality and control, it was not secure and I think her limberness was was kept her upright.

We shall just have to agree to disagree.

That's interesting and I'm glad for your thoughts about why she nearly fell out of that spin. But one thing I always liked about Sasha was that she didn't really contort herself into bizarre positions - like some of the very young Russians are doing now. It's more like her positions were classic and perfect - her layback and came and spiral positions, for instance. When I watch some of these other skaters I fell like saying, you know, just because you can reach back and touch your forhead to your leg, doesn't mean you have to. Yick.

 

[dwiggin3]

I don't agree at all. I think it is out of the question that a skater possessing "little technical skill" could ever possibly challenge for a world or Olympic medal, or a Grand Prix championship.

Surya Bonaly comes to mind, though the GP was not yet in play. Maria Buterskyia (bad spelling of the name) also comes to mind. There are more but my pointing them out will do little. We simply disagree and there is no amount of "proving" or "convincing" the other to think otherwise.

My feeling is that her ability to challenge for olympic/world/GP titles was due in good part to the unwillingness of the judges to call her (and many others) out on her lack of edge control, edge quality, proper edge going into/out of jumps, wobbly landings, etc. Cohen is a prime example of why it is so important that the judges, especially today, really pay attention to these things and call them out. Their inability or unwillingness to do this in the past has created an entire generation of skaters who don't know a lutz form a flip, a loop from a lip, pre-rotate thier jumps and can't move from an inside edge to an outside egde and back without wobbling. It will not be untill the judges start to call this out and skaters start "loosing" becasue it it that they will be forced to learn proper technique, and that the younger skaters will realize they can't get away with cheating thier jumps and expect to go very far.

 

[dwiggin3]

That's interesting and I'm glad for your thoughts about why she nearly fell out of that spin. But one thing I always liked about Sasha was that she didn't really contort herself into bizarre positions - like some of the very young Russians are doing now. It's more like her positions were classic and perfect - her layback and came and spiral positions, for instance. When I watch some of these other skaters I fell like saying, you know, just because you can reach back and touch your forhead to your leg, doesn't mean you have to. Yick.

I have to agree with you on her layback position..it was nice. I stand corrected in terms of her position on the layback. Her spirals were very nice as well however, I am old-school and prefer that the chest remain much higher. Having said that, she did have a nice spiral position.

I've not paid any attention to the young Russian skaters but I do see an awful lot of young skaters trying to contort themselves into positions that for the very few are easy to get in/out of (Cohen was one of them). I don't want to see several revolutions of you trying to be gumby and looking terrible just so you can have 3 revolutions of a Beillman, Catch-Foot ect. If you can't get in/out of the position without strking a nice and pleseant position, it's just not worth it. You are right, just becasue you can do something doesn't mean you should.

 

[ks777]

Surya Bonaly comes to mind, though the GP was not yet in play. Maria Buterskyia (bad spelling of the name) also comes to mind. There are more but my pointing them out will do little. We simply disagree and there is no amount of "proving" or "convincing" the other to think otherwise.

My feeling is that her ability to challenge for olympic/world/GP titles was due in good part to the unwillingness of the judges to call her (and many others) out on her lack of edge control, edge quality, proper edge going into/out of jumps, wobbly landings, etc. Cohen is a prime example of why it is so important that the judges, especially today, really pay attention to these things and call them out. Their inability or unwillingness to do this in the past has created an entire generation of skaters who don't know a lutz form a flip, a loop from a lip, pre-rotate thier jumps and can't move from an inside edge to an outside egde and back without wobbling. It will not be untill the judges start to call this out and skaters start "loosing" becasue it it that they will be forced to learn proper technique, and that the younger skaters will realize they can't get away with cheating thier jumps and expect to go very far.

Maria Butryskaya did have technical skills. She just didn't have soft knees.

 

[dwiggin3]

Maria Butryskaya did have technical skills. She just didn't have soft knees.

which is a an important skill. Perhaps I personally just can't see past that as it affected my perception of her entire skating ability and presentation. I don't recall saying she didn't have ANY technial skill. If my comments alluded to that, it was not my intent. Having said that, I found little in the way of solid technique with Maria but applaud her for sticking it out and winning that world title. I remember how happy she was when she finished her program. Slightly OT - I really liked that white dress she wore for her LP>

Now that I think of it, yes, she did have some technical skills however, IMHO, they were weak - much weaker than what I personally would have expected from a skater at her level. Perhaps that is where the disagrement comes from...just what level of technical skills do we as spectators, skaters, lovers of the sport expect from the participants. I could be wrong, but IIRC, the field at that years worlds was not as strong as it had been in years past - no? Then again, maybe my defintion of a "weak" feild differs from many others.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

 

[pangtongfan]

I have to ask, are you a skater or judge? How well do you know about " skating skills"? Sasha does have good stroking technique, in my eyes. Of course I am not a judge or andvanced figure skater but I do skate and have taken skating lessons from figure skating coach. I love how Sasha does her cross under. She does it just like Yuka Sato. As for her flat edge on the spiral, I think when you have your leg extended that much, it's so easy to lose balance and edge so that's why I think she is more on the flat than Michelle.
I do agree that her lutz/flip technique isn't the best.

No I am not but I did see her skate live at Skate Canada two years in a row back in late 2002 and late 2003 and that was my impressions of her skating, although she was still interesting and dynamic in other ways.

And on Butyrskaya while she had her flaws I definitely dont think she was ever a judges favorite or overmarked either. If anything she suffered from the Russian support of others, early on Markova and later Slutskaya as the Russian #1 over her (though with Slutskaya it made sense as she was mostly just the better skater). And she definitely deserved her World title, she far outskated anyone else that year.

 

[Mathman]

I don't blame the judges back in 2003-2005 for not knowing what to do with the program components. Sasha got a bunch of nines the 2003 Grand Prix series (which stood as a record for a long time) from panels that -- I suppose -- were still thinking ordinals and second mark.

"Sasha skated beautifully, so we should give her winning marks."

 

[Kitt]

Maybe those judges just preferred the "ballet" look. I know I didn't care about ladies' FS until Sasha came on the scene in 2000. Maybe those exquisite lines are irresistible! Contrast her spiral with Yu-na's. I rest my case.

 

[Olympia]

Agreed about Sasha's spiral. I love and admire YuNa, and she has many artistic strengths, but I sure don't look at her spiral to make my heart sing. By comparison, Sasha's is sublime and deserving of praise, whether she's skating it on one edge, both edges at once, or her shoelaces. We've had discussions before about ankles-up skaters and ankles-down skaters (Sasha definitely being stunning from the ankles up but maybe not so much from the ankles down). But a huge number of American skating fans right now would be thrilled to have her in the mix, improper lutz edge and all. Golly, a "failure" who was on the world podium several times, and on the Olympic podium as well? Bring her on!

 

[Mathman]

About those heart-grabbing spirals, it seems to me that there are two ways to go about it. For the Nicole Bobeck/Michelle Kwan spiral, the skater rotates and opens her hips. For the Sasha spiral, the idea is to get the highest possible amplitude with the free leg by dropping the upper body to a position almost parallel to the ice.

I’m not sure we can call either of these “balletic.” Here is the arabesque position. (I don’t think you can do this on skates.)

http://www.sfgate.com/blogs/images/sfgate/bustamante/2009/04/16/NUT06REP-ET050498x338.jpg

For comparison, Sasha:

http://www.windweaver.com/sasha/sasharj119321wa.jpg

http://imet.csus.edu/imet8/martin/pselements/image/sasha cohen.jpg

Nicole

http://stupidcelebrities.net/wp-content/nicoleb1.jpg

Michelle

http://www.dailystab.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/michelle-kwan.jpg

Edited to add: Among current skaters, the young Mao Asada had a pretty good Kwan-type spiral.

http://www.ifsmagazine.com/archive/2007/jan/Asada-opening-pic-cover.jpg

But the mature Mao goes in more for catch-foot positions (meh), or this beauty of a supported leg position.

http://bionicbong.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/mao-asada.jpg

Mao and Sasha are the only two skaters who look halfway decent doing a forward fan spiral. (Well, maybe "decent" isn't the right word. )

 

[seniorita]

I think Sasha had more than just a good spiral. Yes you would be afraid she would fall in jumps, but she had attitude, great presence, connection with music that was not just a choreographers work, great taste in costumes and a tone of personality plus all the spirals and spins that were a beauty. I also like her step sequences, there alot of programs I would go to look back again with joy.

 

[pangtongfan]

But a huge number of American skating fans right now would be thrilled to have her in the mix, improper lutz edge and all. Golly, a "failure" who was on the world podium several times, and on the Olympic podium as well? Bring her on!

Meissner was 4th at the 2007 Worlds, the best Americans were age ineligible for the 2008 Worlds, Flatt was 5th at the 2009 Worlds, Nagasu 4th at the 2010 Olympics, Nagasu won the SP at the 2010 Worlds. And I could be wrong but I believe Meissner was 7th at the 2008 Worlds, Flatt 7th at the 2010 Olympics (would have been 4th or 5th without two bogus downgrades), and Nagasu 7th at the 2010 Worlds. What makes one think Cohen in her prime would be doing any better than that today. I suspect 4th-7th would be her likely finishing range over the last 4-5 years as well, just as those girls were, keeping in mind Cohen's complete inability to skate clean programs so dont be imagining "clean Cohen" which never existed in the first place.

When Cohen was in her prime from 2003-2006 it was a soft and very open quad for the women like I said. It was absolutely nothing like the previous 7 years when Kwan, Slutskaya, Chen, Lipinski, ruled the roost and Butyrskaya and Hughes also somehow won major titles. She faced an aging Kwan with a badly damaged hip, an aging Slutskaya with a serious heart ailment, an out of the blue surprise like Arakawa, Sokolova, and Suguri. There were no dazzling up and comers to emerge that were age eligible yet, Kostner won a World bronze in 2005 with a mediocre free skate, and Ando failed to make a big mark until the 06-07 season. Yet even amongst this field Cohen failed to win a major title, failed to defeat Kwan for a National title, and even still sometimes found herself off the podium at major events (eg- 2002 and 2003 Worlds).

The last 4-5 years competing against Asada, Kim, Ando, Rochette, and the once in awhile good Kostner, she would find it alot tougher. All of those women have been in their primes with no serious health problems. All of those women attempt much higher jump content than she does. All of those women are more consistent jumpers (other than Kostner), much stronger jumps who will get much better GOE on their jumps, other than possibly Ando all can do all level 3 and 4 non jump elements with ease as well, and all have much better basic skating. Due to the weak field of 03-06 Cohen's weaker basics were never really reflected in the PCS but in a stronger field they probably would be just as her presentation marks in 2002 were never very high even with all her beautiful positions.

Heck as I mentioned Fumie Suguri was one of the top skaters of the Cohen prime. Look at how Suguri has done over the last 4-5 years, and her skating hasnt declined all that much.

I think a prime Sasha over the last quad would have found similar success to Flatt, Nagasu, and Meissner, during their better years most likely.

 

[Mathman]

No, but it's what Seniorita said above. Sasha commanded our attention and produced performances that we go back and watch on You Tube over and over.

Think of all her little faults as being the mole on Marilyn Monroe's face. It just sets off the beauty of the rest of it.

Sasha would do fine if she were in her prime and competing now. Especially this year, where the judges are giving out PCSs like Hallowe'een candy and don't care much about falls and the like -- or for that matter, about technical content.

 

[FlattFan]

I'm hard-pressed to find anyone in this quad who can beat the aging and damaged Kwan at Nationals 2003 and 2004.
Maybe Ando at the 2007 World or Kim at the Olympics or Asada at the 2010 World, but that's all. And how rare it was for them to put together a clean SP and clean LP.