Could Kwan in her prime beat a clean Yu Na Kim

[pangtongfan]

yes because we know that these types of polls are scientific and correct and can't possibly be popularity contests...

when Yuna is 10 years past her prime and still landing all the difficult triples then we'll talk.

Kristi 10 years past her prime (eg- mid 2000s) was landing triple toes and double axels. Hardly all the difficult triples.

 

[Olympia]

Seniorita, I don't think it's nostalgia that draws us to Michelle. It's the same excitement that made us take notice in the first place—it doesn't get old or diminish. YuNa is exciting to watch also, of course, both for her athleticism and her artistry. But she doesn't "replace" Michelle, any more than Plushy replaces Yagudin—or Yagudin replaces Browning. I never worry about which of those guys could beat one another. I just watch them all in a row and enjoy.

It's the old story of whether Gene Kelly or Fred Astaire is "better." I, being greedy about these things, insist on admiring both. With skating, I will never stop being a Michelle fan. (Possibly a bot!) But I am thrilled to bits that I get to be a skating fan at the time that YuNa, and the equally extraordinary Mao, are skating. Being greedy about these things, I insist on having all three to admire and delight in. And I get my wish!

Seniorita, Greece will be represented by the pair of Baklava and Kourabiedes

Or possibly Baklava and Leftheris?

 

[ks777]

The REAL STRENGTH of YuNa is ...
She has a CAPTIVATING, MAGICAL QUALITY that oozes out from her BEAUTIFUL BODY MOVEMENT.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue7tlw_7vQM

It is that SPECIAL QUALITY ...why everybody fell in love with her...

KNOWN Yuna fans : Scott Hamilton, Brian Orser, Philip Hershey, Midori Ito, Shizuka Arakawa, German Commentators, British Commentators, Italian Commentators, Spanish, Russian, Chinese and on and on.
Well...except the VERY FEW...who have their own favorite.

I like Yuna's skating, especially her toe jumps but I didn't fall in love with her. sorry, I have fallen in love with Kwan's many exhibition programs but not Yuna's yet.
I do think she has one of the best toe jumps but artistically, she is no where near Kwan and Cohen. Sorry but you can't force everyone to like your favorite skater(or your country hero).

 

[pangtongfan]

Sasha Cohen is so overrated it is laughable. The only thing her skating has is pretty positions. She has no jumping ability, no edges, no basic skating, no speed. And the 2006 Olympics is one of the few times her performances had any soul at all, yes those performances were beautiful and moving apart from the predicted couple splats but most of her work is not, and except for 2003 and 2006 her programs have little to no choreography either. Her 2002 Carmen attempt was even lamer than Irinas 2000 program to that same music. Despite her beautiful postiions her overall artistry does not even come close to skaters like Yamaguchi, Kwan, Chen, or Witt, and despite her spins and spirals considering her poor jumping and basics her overall technical ability is behind about 50 others of the last few decades atleast. Add to that her non existent consistency and it is little wonder she failed to win a major title despite peaking in a wide open quad which was mostly a combination of holdover stars from the previous era past their prime (Slutskaya and Kwan), pretenders (Suguri) or out of the blue surprises (Arakawa).

I dont know how she even came into this thread. A thread with Kwan and Kim in the title is no place for hyped up non champion like Cohen. What was Cohens head to head with Kwan, something like 2-50. If she faced Kim with both in their primes it would be similar or worse.

 

[Tonichelle]

:sheesh: stuff like this where we resort to name calling of each others favorite skaters/teams makes me that more thankful that I don't just enjoy this sport...

 

[Layfan]

Seniorita, I don't think it's nostalgia that draws us to Michelle. It's the same excitement that made us take notice in the first place—it doesn't get old or diminish. YuNa is exciting to watch also, of course, both for her athleticism and her artistry. But she doesn't "replace" Michelle, any more than Plushy replaces Yagudin—or Yagudin replaces Browning. I never worry about which of those guys could beat one another. I just watch them all in a row and enjoy.

It's the old story of whether Gene Kelly or Fred Astaire is "better." I, being greedy about these things, insist on admiring both. With skating, I will never stop being a Michelle fan. (Possibly a bot!) But I am thrilled to bits that I get to be a skating fan at the time that YuNa, and the equally extraordinary Mao, are skating. Being greedy about these things, I insist on having all three to admire and delight in. And I get my wish!





Or possibly Baklava and Leftheris?

This is exactly it. And even if there were some way to objectively prove that Kim Yuna would beat Michelle Kwan in her prime, it wouldn't diminish my admiration of Michelle Kwan one bit. And vice versa.

 

[Blades of Passion]

@PangTongFan

 

[aftertherain]

I dont know how she even came into this thread. A thread with Kwan and Kim in the title is no place for hyped up non champion like Cohen. What was Cohens head to head with Kwan, something like 2-50. If she faced Kim with both in their primes it would be similar or worse.

Of all the pretentious ... I don't even want to finish that sentence.

Just because you started this thread doesn't mean you get to dictate where or where it doesn't go.

 

[silverlake22]

Sasha Cohen is so overrated it is laughable. The only thing her skating has is pretty positions. She has no jumping ability, no edges, no basic skating, no speed. And the 2006 Olympics is one of the few times her performances had any soul at all, yes those performances were beautiful and moving apart from the predicted couple splats but most of her work is not, and except for 2003 and 2006 her programs have little to no choreography either. Her 2002 Carmen attempt was even lamer than Irinas 2000 program to that same music. Despite her beautiful postiions her overall artistry does not even come close to skaters like Yamaguchi, Kwan, Chen, or Witt, and despite her spins and spirals considering her poor jumping and basics her overall technical ability is behind about 50 others of the last few decades atleast. Add to that her non existent consistency and it is little wonder she failed to win a major title despite peaking in a wide open quad which was mostly a combination of holdover stars from the previous era past their prime (Slutskaya and Kwan), pretenders (Suguri) or out of the blue surprises (Arakawa).

I dont know how she even came into this thread. A thread with Kwan and Kim in the title is no place for hyped up non champion like Cohen. What was Cohens head to head with Kwan, something like 2-50. If she faced Kim with both in their primes it would be similar or worse.

Thank You! I completely agree. Oh Sasha...

 

[Mathman]

^ Oh, goodness no! Sasha was -- and still is -- a wonderful skater. She was the second best skater in the world in 2004 (only a skate-of-a-lifetime by Arakawa was better), the second best in 2005 (only a skate-of-a-lifetime by Slutskaya was better), and second best in the world at the 2006 Olympics (granted, nobody really stepped up in that competition).

I don't know about "soul," but she gave many delightful performances, my personal fave being Hernando's Hideaway.

Nationally, Sasha had bad timing in that she came on the scene before Michelle was ready to move on. But that is not a mark against Sasha -- lots of U.S. skaters couldn't beat Michelle at Nationals. (Tens of thousands couldn't -- or however many skaters there are in the U.S. )

What's ludicrous is to go to the trouble to bash Sasha on a Yu-na/Michelle thread. Can't we reserve this thread to bash those two?

 

[pangtongfan]

Sasha was not the 2nd best skater in the World in 2004. Kwan gave the performance of the year at U.S Nationals (apart from possibly Shizuka's long program at Worlds). Kwan also beat Cohen in the long program phase at Worlds. So Shizuka and Kwan were really the 2 best skaters in the World at the end of the 03-04 season. Sasha did not win any major event that season, also losing the GP final to Suguri so should not be considered one of the 2 best skaters that year even though she did come 2nd at Worlds.

As for 2005 it is hard to say again. Slutskaya was far and away the best this year. However Kwan trounced Cohen again at Nationals which gave her a major win this season vs none for Cohen, even though Cohen similarily trounced Kwan at Worlds. Suguri's performances at Four Continents were the best of anyone this season not named Slutskaya.

And in 2006 definitely not 2nd best. Arakawa won the Olympics. Asada proved on the grand prix she was already a better skater than Sasha already but was kept out of the Olympics and Worlds by the silly age rule. Kim's performances from World Juniors would have probably even beaten anything Sasha did this season. Slutskaya was better than Sasha all season except for the Olympics, and the Olympics is the only event Irina skated that season where any of Sasha's performances this season could have beaten her. Meissner won the World title, and while she was dominated by Sasha all season before then that major title trumps anything Sasha won this season.

I am not the one who brought Sasha into this thread, in fact I am the one who said it is silly she is even in this thread IMHO. However if others want to talk about her, I might as well have my say on the topic of Sasha Cohen as well.

 

[Mathman]

^ OK, so Sasha was the third best skater in the world.

That's a good thing , not a terrible disgrace.

 

[pangtongfan]

Sure not a disgrace, but nobody should be talking about Sasha being able to compete against a prime Kwan or a prime Kim. After all it was proven repeatedly Sasha couldnt even a beat past her prime Kwan. She simply wasnt good enough.

 

[Layfan]

^ Oh, goodness no! Sasha was -- and still is -- a wonderful skater. She was the second best skater in the world in 2004 (only a skate-of-a-lifetime by Arakawa was better), the second best in 2005 (only a skate-of-a-lifetime by Slutskaya was better), and second best in the world at the 2006 Olympics (granted, nobody really stepped up in that competition).

I don't know about "soul," but she gave many delightful performances, my personal fave being Hernando's Hideaway.

Nationally, Sasha had bad timing in that she came on the scene before Michelle was ready to move on. But that is not a mark against Sasha -- lots of U.S. skaters couldn't beat Michelle at Nationals. (Tens of thousands couldn't -- or however many skaters there are in the U.S. )

What's ludicrous is to go to the trouble to bash Sasha on a Yu-na/Michelle thread. Can't we reserve this thread to bash those two?

Hernando's is wonderful. I also loved her "Don't Rain on My Parade" exhibition at the Olympics and I don't see how anyone can watch that and say Sasha never skated with passion. In 2004, she gave one of my all time favorite programs, which was her Malaguena short program. I found it breathtaking. I don't see how anyone can argue that she had "no choreography" in that or in Rachmaninoff or Swan Lake or Romeo and Juliet. Not that she was perfect - I understand all about the flat edge on her spiral and her flutz tendencies - but besides her brilliant positions she also had wonderful spins and wonderfully explosive and sharp footwork, the likes of which we see from no U.S. lady at the moment.

But that's just me. To each his own, and I'm always interesting in constructive criticism of any skater, as it helps me understand the sport better. Too bad when it's presented in a nasty and mean-spirited way, though.

 

[prettykeys]

Sure not a disgrace, but nobody should be talking about Sasha being able to compete against a prime Kwan or a prime Kim. After all it was proven repeatedly Sasha couldnt even a beat past her prime Kwan. She simply wasnt good enough.

I think that is the intent behind the rather poor comparison of YuNa and Sasha. Of course to certain skating fans, comparing YuNa to Kwan is unbearable, and comparing YuNa to Slutskaya (who regularly traded competition wins with Kwan) is also less than desirable. Thus, you compare YuNa to a skater who was regularly 2nd to Kwan, and then make fun of her Grand Prix record laugh

 

[sunny0760]

It is that SPECIAL QUALITY ...why everybody fell in love with her...

KNOWN Yuna fans : Scott Hamilton, Brian Orser, Philip Hershey, Midori Ito, Shizuka Arakawa, German Commentators, British Commentators, Italian Commentators, Spanish, Russian, Chinese and on and on.
Well...except the VERY FEW...who have their own favorite.

The wonderful Robin Cousins!(I don't know other British commentators)
He inspired two or three year old Jeremy to skate when he skated in Colorado and I happen to be Jeremy's fan.

I like Yuna's skating, especially her toe jumps but I didn't fall in love with her. sorry, I have fallen in love with Kwan's many exhibition programs but not Yuna's yet.
I do think she has one of the best toe jumps but artistically, she is no where near Kwan and Cohen. Sorry but you can't force everyone to like your favorite skater(or your country hero).

My favorite Ex is Reflection, especially with the wonderful Robin Cusons as a commentator!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWGgr_tcGDE
The last comment. How prophetic he was! I am sure he already thought Yuna, world's bronze medalist, was the best skater in 2007.

Nobody forces you to like anyone or dislike anyone. If Yuna is compared to legends/greats like Kwan or Witt, it IS Yuna's honor.

Cousins : (after the oly) "If someone asked me who they should look at (across the generations) I would say Janet Lynn, Dorothy Hamill, Katarina Witt and definitely Yuna. There isn't a move Yuna makes that doesn't give her points"
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/sports/winter/2010-02/27/content_9513357.htm

Well Cousins has his opinions and you have yours.

 

[antmanb]

The wonderful Robin Cousins!(I don't know other British commentators)
He inspired two or three year old Jeremy to skate when he skated in Colorado and I happen to be Jeremy's fan.



My favorite Ex is Reflection, especially with the wonderful Robin Cusons as a commentator!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWGgr_tcGDE
The last comment. How prophetic he was! I am sure he already thought Yuna, world's bronze medalist, was the best skater in 2007.

Nobody forces you to like anyone or dislike anyone. If Yuna is compared to legends/greats like Kwan or Witt, it IS Yuna's honor.

Cousins : (after the oly) "If someone asked me who they should look at (across the generations) I would say Janet Lynn, Dorothy Hamill, Katarina Witt and definitely Yuna. There isn't a move Yuna makes that doesn't give her points"
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/sports/winter/2010-02/27/content_9513357.htm

Well Cousins has his opinions and you have yours.

I suspect that skatinganalyst might have been referring to Chris Howarth and Simon Reed on Eurosport (as the British commentators). They are also very big fans of Yuna. Sadly there isn't much skating on the BBC which is where Robin does most of ihs commentating.

Ant

 

[seniorita]

Cousins is one time cold one time warm in his commentaries, he changes his mind from short to long, I prefer the enthusiasm of Euro guys who gush for everybody and always
By the way from Witt he jumped 20 years forward? Huge gap. And he forgot the Kwan?

 

[dwiggin3]

Sasha Cohen is so overrated it is laughable. The only thing her skating has is pretty positions. She has no jumping ability, no edges, no basic skating, no speed. And the 2006 Olympics is one of the few times her performances had any soul at all, yes those performances were beautiful and moving apart from the predicted couple splats but most of her work is not, and except for 2003 and 2006 her programs have little to no choreography either. Her 2002 Carmen attempt was even lamer than Irinas 2000 program to that same music. Despite her beautiful postiions her overall artistry does not even come close to skaters like Yamaguchi, Kwan, Chen, or Witt, and despite her spins and spirals considering her poor jumping and basics her overall technical ability is behind about 50 others of the last few decades atleast. Add to that her non existent consistency and it is little wonder she failed to win a major title despite peaking in a wide open quad which was mostly a combination of holdover stars from the previous era past their prime (Slutskaya and Kwan), pretenders (Suguri) or out of the blue surprises (Arakawa).

I dont know how she even came into this thread. A thread with Kwan and Kim in the title is no place for hyped up non champion like Cohen. What was Cohens head to head with Kwan, something like 2-50. If she faced Kim with both in their primes it would be similar or worse.

STOP THE PRESSES!!!! This may be the one and only time Pangtongfan and I will ever agree. Aside from "pretty" positions and IMHO, spooky flexability, Cohen is one the most sucessful skaters who posessed little technical skill.

 

[Mathman]

I don't agree at all. I think it is out of the question that a skater possessing "little technical skill" could ever possibly challenge for a world or Olympic medal, or a Grand Prix championship.