Russian Team for 2013 Euros and Worlds
- Thread starter Ziggy
- Start date
For now only for SP, her FS will be tomorrow.
It is normal - to earn technical minimum at first try for girls from Russia, USA, Japan. These countries have many talented skaters.
Her international experience is really very little - Coupe de Nice (novice) at 2007 and one JGP Event at 2010 (7th place and no second Event).
I believe, it is not a problem. Russian girls often skate good at nteir first Internationals. And not only Russian, Gracie Gold was "gold" (1st place) at her first JGP Event.
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2012
Very good response, haribobo. And I do agree with you on most of your points.
But, I still class the Europeans and the Worlds at a level above the Grand Prix Series and the Junior competitions.
I suppose the nearest comparison I can think of is in snooker (sorry Eurosport’s skating viewers, I know snooker is a sore point! But, I am a fan of both sports!) Amongst the professional events, there are:
1. invitational tournaments (e.g. Wuxi Classic prior to 2012/13 season; World Team Cup; 6-Red World Championship)
2. a series of small ranking tournaments called PTC’s (Players Tour Championships) that are a cut down version of normal tournaments and which build up to a Grand Final;
3. normal ranking tournaments (e.g. Australian Open, Shanghai Masters, German Masters, China Open, Welsh Open);
4. the 3 Major Tournaments (the UK Championship, the London Masters and the World Championship)
So, putting this into skating terms:
1. the invitational tournaments are the equivalent of the likes of the Finlandia Trophy, or Japan Open;
2. the PTC’s are the equivalent of the GP Series;
3. the normal ranking tournaments are the equivalent of the likes of the Nebelhorn Trophy, Ondrej Nepela Trophy, or Cup of Nice;
4. the Major Tournaments are the equivalent of the European Championship, 4 Continents, and the World Championship
In snooker, nobody would say the PTC’s are comparable to the Major Tournaments. In fact, very few would say the PTC’s are even comparable to normal tournaments. Yet, in the arguments in this thread, people seem to be trying to say that the GP Series is comparable to the Major competitions.
One final anecdote from the snooker. The next of the 3 Major Tournaments – the London Masters (which is being held next week) – is actually an invitational event open only to the top 16 players in the rankings.
One of the players in this year’s London Masters, Mark Davis, has been on the professional circuit for 21 years. But the 2012/13 season is the first time he has made it into the top 16 in the rankings. And, hence, this is the first time he has played in the London Masters. So, how is he being described in the press in the lead up to the Masters? Yes, you’ve guessed it! They are calling him a “ROOKIE”! And that is despite the fact that:
1. he is one of the oldest, most experienced players on the professional circuit;
2. he has won the 6-Red World Championship twice, in 2009 and 2012;
3. he won the 2002/3 Masters Qualifying Event, but was knocked out of the London Masters in the Wildcard Round, and so didn’t actually get to play in the tournament proper [the organisers got rid of the Qualifying Event and the Wildcard Round after the 2009/10 season];
4. he was the runner-up in the Paul Hunter Classic (a PTC in Germany) in 2011;
5. he has made it to the main venue of the UK Championship on 7 occasions (including reaching the semi-final in 2012);
6. he has made it to the main venue of the World Championship on 7 occasions!
So, the moral of the story is that “rookie” DOES NOT necessarily mean totally inexperienced. It just means they are inexperienced in that particular event (like Mark Davis at the London Masters) or inexperienced in that type of event (like Adelina and Liza in what I am terming the "Major Competitions")
Now, it is probably my fault for getting so wound up by the tone of the 2 messages that I was replying to, and thinking ahead to my next part of the discussion (where I explained why I would pick Polina as opposed to Alena or Ksenia). Oh, and the fact I was trying to watch TV at the same time! But I actually left out the part in the middle where I got to the crux of my point about experience!
What I was getting at is that because there are a lot more people watching at major championships like the Europeans and Worlds (whether they know much about skating or not is another matter!), there is a lot more expectation from the fans and hence a lot more pressure on the skaters.
Like, in most spectators eyes, these are supposed to be the best skaters from each country in that continent/in the world (we all know that that is not necessarily the case, as the fact that we are talking about the choices shows). So, it is a lot of weight being placed on the skaters shoulders, and an awful lot more weight if it is your first time appearing at one of these championships.
So, with this in mind, you would want to have somebody on the team that had experienced those sorts of conditions before. You know, to help and reassure the rookies. That is not to say that I think somebody like Adelina or Liza needs help with pressure, given their past success. But you never know. After all, they are at that difficult stage of a teenage girl’s life…
Now, I know that all the other skaters selected for the Russian team in Men’s, Pairs and Dance have all been there before. But, I don’t know how much time that the skaters from the different categories get to spend with each other. So, the new girls in the team may not be able to get reassurance from outside their own wee group.
Personally, I would have kept Polina (or Alena) in for this year’s Majors so that they could help bed Adelina and Liza into the team. And then, I would have brought Nikol (or Julia, if the rules say she is old enough!) in next year. That way, Adelina and Liza would have a year under their belts, and hence they can then help bed in their new team-mate.
But, I am not saying that every skater should wait to take their turn! If you are good enough to be on the team (and old enough to be allowed in by the rules) then by all means younger skaters should be able to leap-frog their older, more established counterparts.
For goodness sake, I just need to look at my Facebook updates page to see the number of very good young skaters out there who are not getting the chance to compete on the international stage (even at Grand Prix level) because their national federation is not willing to take the risk of choosing somebody other than the established star(s). So, you have to give credit to Russia for taking that chance with Nikol this year, and with Polina last year.
Believe it or not, I was one of the many people who was annoyed that Polina got onto the team last year rather than Adelina. I know, Adelina was born 1 day too late to be allowed in. But, I don’t see why the rule is you have to be 15 at the end of June when the Europeans are the following January and the Worlds the following March. Surely the requirement should be that you are 15 at the start of that particular competition. But that is another discussion, one which I will hopefully be starting a thread about in the next day or so (I have already written the comment – it is just a matter of checking through it before posting!)
And I fully agree with your point about Alena and Ksenia needing time to sort themselves out! In fact, I said that in my first comment in this thread (a link to which I also intended putting in my last comment, but forgot!) But, I still fear that if they take time out, they will never get back in. Which would be a shame, particularly for Alena, as she does seem to always pull something out of the bag at World’s.
And thank you for mentioning Sofia Biryukova. I had forgotten all about her, probably because she had such a wretched time at both her GP appearances, and then again at Russian Nationals. She is definitely another skater who should be doing a lot better than she is at the moment, and who should have been somebody to take into consideration for the team, had she been on form.
But, I still think Polina K is much better at the moment than you are giving her credit for. And I would definitely not use the word “mediocre” to describe somebody that was the “best of the rest” behind Adelina, Liza and Elena Radionova after the SP at Russian Nationals. As I say, she was just unfortunate to have a bad FS on the day.
Perhaps we should just agree to disagree.
So, can we PLEASE end this argument now and just look forward to seeing the skating?
Finally, apologies to the more recent comments that this is mainly replying to the first reply (haribobo’s) after my last comment. But, that was the only comment that had arrived at the time I was last on the forum! And, given how much I have written already, I feel I have probably said enough!
But thanks AlexRus for the clarification on the spelling of Nikol’s name. There were so many variations in this thread, I just picked one spelling and stuck with it! But, I have just corrected the spelling in this particular comment.
CaroLiza_fan
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I agree that Kovtun is promising but Menshov earned his spot fair and square and given how old he is, it might have been his last chance for a Euros medal. 
Without jumps?
She has landed 3flip/3toe (!!!), 3loop, 3salchow, 3lutz/2toe, then stepped out of 3flip and singled her two final jumping passes.
That's 4 triples there, 5 rotated, no downgrades. That's definitely good enough.
And her PCS were in high 5s, which is high for a junior event without any big name skaters taking part.
She has the SP score and needs to earn the FS one now.
Although I bet that Worlds minimums are going to get lowered.
Without jumps?
She has landed 3flip/3toe (!!!), 3loop, 3salchow, 3lutz/2toe, then stepped out of 3flip and singled her two final jumping passes.
That's 4 triples there, 5 rotated, no downgrades. That's definitely good enough.
And her PCS were in high 5s, which is high for a junior event without any big name skaters taking part.
She has the SP score and needs to earn the FS one now.
Although I bet that Worlds minimums are going to get lowered.
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And quite frankly that performance is as good or better than anything Leonova has done this season:
Skate America: five non UR triples (lutz got edge call)
Cup of Russia: three triples
Russian nationals: five triples (edge call and step out on lutz)
And she's short of qualifying for Worlds, but she can get it at Euros.
Definitely not better than leonova on pcs. qualifying may be based on Tes but results are pcs than Tes. The Russian federation has already decided to dump leonova for someone who wasn't eligible anyway until today. But they chose a singler of two jumps which is certainly not better than leonova but rather equal but with lower pcs.
The fact is that PCS leonova gets wasn't even enough to make up for poor performances. Leonova has been poor all season and I see no reason why someone who beat her shouldn't be given a chance. (For the record I also disagree with Kovtum being chosen over Menshov).
As for singling jumps -- Nikol isn't the first nor the last to single a jump (or even multiple ones) a FS. Despite those two mistakes she still scored 91, which is pretty good at the junior level.
Let's see how she does at Euros.
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2012
Yes, we don't have to forget that in the Junior programs they don't have the ChSq, so the score would be at least 2 points higher: 93 is a pretty good score for Euros and I think that, in a stronger Senior field, her PCS would be a couple of points higher, too... And she made also a mistake in the last spin, so another 1.5 (at least) points would usually be there. I think that, even with some mistakes, her score can be around 100 at Euros, and that would be enough to keep Nikol at least in the Top 10/15, with a decent SP...
She has just landed a 3flip/3toe combination at an international competition and skated two decent programs. FS wasn't perfect but there were 4 triples there. When was the last time Leonova has done that? (Hint: Never)
Obviously people have Singled jumps before but she was chosen over the world silver medalist for euros when she wasn't eligible so why not have a high standard for her right now.
There is no chsq but the reason why her Tes didn't reach worlds level was because off singled jumps.
Leonova has not done triple flip triple toe but all the winners recently of major events haven't done it either. So that particular combo is not necessary and neither is a lutz because pcs is most important.
There is no chsq but the reason why her Tes didn't reach worlds level was because off singled jumps.
Leonova has not done triple flip triple toe but all the winners recently of major events haven't done it either. So that particular combo is not necessary and neither is a lutz because pcs is most important.
Ouch! Ouch! But true unfortunately. IMHO the girl's problem lies squarely between the ears. She needs to find away to zone out what everyone else is doing and just do her thing. She cannot cope with her nerves it looks like (personal opinion here). And who wants a skater to go out like that. But, my goodness the depth of women skaters is Russia is extraordinary!!
You keep repeating that PCS is most important but PCS means nothing if you aren't landing your jumps. Did PCS help Leonova to place well at her GP events?
Leonovas pcs didn't help leonova medal or anything but her scores would've been lower. Mao did two kinds of triples to win an event - four in total so pcs does matter most. Kostner abandoned lutz. Pcs does matter a lot and is most important and because it's a guarantee leonovas pcs would be better than gosvianis that should have mattered more. If you have two people and one will get lower pcs even if they land all their jumps and another could land similar jumps but higher pcs the second person should be sent.
To me it's about the merit of sending someone to Euros. Leonova has not had a good competition nearly a year. Nikol is not perfect, but she has shown that she can at least do a decent job and she did enough to beat Leonova, DESPITE the PCS.
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2012
You keep on saying this - and I mean "keep on" - but Leonova is not Mao, nor is she Kostner. What they can get away with, she can't - not even close.
And for the record - I'm not saying we should "write off" Leonova - I'm not in favour of "writing off" anyone anyway - but just now things are clearly not working for her. I don't think another potential disaster at Euros' would be good for her confidence. Maybe she should take a step back, a little time out, so she can come back re-invigorated. Also, I cannot fathom your "Obi Wan Leonova, you're the only hope of Russian skating!" attitude either. To be frank.
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