2012 NHK Trophy Mens Free Skate

[demarinis5]

Maybe Nanami Abe Yuzuru's coach for many years before his move to Brian will be coaching him while he is in Japan. I understand that they are on good terms.
Just a thought.....and speculation on my part. I am sure he is very happy to be home in Japan even if it is for a little while.

 

[yude]

no quotes yet from him, but orser was interviewed by cbc after the free skate: here

about orser giving more attention to one or the other, i think nobody can't say that with certainty after just one competition. We'd have to be there and watch them train everyday. Javi seemed pretty happy in interviews and said that they were a group like the detroit skating club now, and he did win his first gp just one week later of hanyu beating the wr for the first time. So, i hope nothing will change for him and that he'll receive the attention he needs. He's a very nice guy, a great athlete and a great sportsman, imo.

ita!!!

 

[let`s talk]

Because he wants to use Morozov's Russian influence for Sochi Olympics.

So, according to your logic Hanyu switched to Orser because he wanted the Canadian influence on ISU (seems like it's working). And I/K switched from Zhulin to Morozov probably because Nikolai rents rinks in US on a regular basis, therefore he contributes in the US economy, so SA will pay their influence card. Brrr... and then the same people accuse others of being conspiracy lovers .
Carry on.

The reason a lot of people aren't complaining about Hanyu's win is because Hanyu didn't win because he was given huge PCS over everyone else. Patrick would get PCS in the upper 80s for three fall programs and that's where people would hem and haw. In this program Dai won the PCS mark and Hanyu took the free based on TES. And its understandable Hanyu took it based on TES if you look at the program.

Have we read the same thread? Or by "people" you mean only those whose opinions suit yours? Hanyu's PCS was way overscored (only 4.28 over Dai), with that dying-kid prog of no-character routine that he could hardly finished. A pale-shadow of his last season's himself. If Yuzu's PCS was 10 points or around lower Dai as he deserves, than Takahashi would have won FS with a little gap. It didn't happen thanks to PCS manupulation like with Chan's PCS. Btw, your info is outdated, mid 80 he gets for the prog with 4 falls and over 90 for the one with three doubles.

 

[Bluebonnet]

To set the record straight, Takahashi said it himself that he wanted to use Morozov's Russian influence because 2014 Olympics is in Sochi, Russia. Someone just wanted to make it look like I have invented it. The same old tricks! Hanyu did not say anything about Canadian influence.

The same question can be made about the skating

The point is where is the vast outrageous cries on "fall and win" this time?! Where is the multi pages and multi threads calling on conspiracy and political play by JSF as they did on SC?! Where is the splitting-hair fashioned analysis second by second on Hanyu's skating and every single category in his PCS like they did on Patrick Chan?! I think you have to agree that it did show the double standard in treating different skaters, even different skating fans. And it did show who is more vocal and biased. Vocal is perfectly fine or we won't have forums. But the extreme unfairness among posts is getting too big sometimes. It's actually so predictable.

 

[wallylutz]

There is no outcry as strong as the ladies event, but there is anger with Hanyu's scores starting from the SP and carrying onto the FS where some thought Takahashi should have won. Posters have been unhappy with Hanyu's high PCS, coining a new term - Yuzuflation.
Personally, I thought Hanyu did enough to win overall. The performance aspect of his FS might have been bad, but his tes kept him up there.
Who won the FS and overall for you?

For me, Ross Miner won the FS. Overall, I don't know since I only casually watched the SP and to find the overall winner, I'll need to do precise calculations.

 

[wallylutz]

Ah okay, I watched it live via the internet as well, and thought it was counted as a fall since he put his hands down - honest mistake, and I apologize for that. At the same time though, he got -2s and -3s in GOEs and did indeed miss the combo, so falling vs not falling in this case wouldn't have made a huge difference point-wise... am I missing something here? Dai made some significant mistakes, I don't get the emphasis on falling ...

I wasn't the one emphasizing on falling. There is a group of people here, very vocal about skaters falling and win. The same people just turned a blind eye an shut up in this competition, I was asking for their take to better understand their change of heart.

 

[lavender]

This difference between the ladies and gents for me is nil. I didn't argue for ladies or men because I think i'm just tired of the way this sport is judged whether it's 6.0 or COP. There is just no use so I've step back some from this sport. I no longer have this unbreakable bond to the sport like I use to.

 

[demarinis5]

BB- I can only speak for myself but I think a lot of folks on this board have a lot to say about the outcome of certain competitions but prefer to keep it to themselves.

My rantings won't change anything and I don't have the energy or time to be snarky.

 

[demarinis5]

This difference between the ladies and gents for me is nil. I didn't argue for ladies or men because I think i'm just tired of the way this sport is judged whether it's 6.0 or COP. There is just no use so I've step back some from this sport. I no longer have this unbreakable bond to the sport like I use to.

I feel the same way sometimes. When Dai retires I may become a lurker again. lol

 

[Mrs. P]

I wasn't the one emphasizing on falling. There is a group of people here, very vocal about skaters falling and win. The same people just turned a blind eye an shut up in this competition, I was asking for their take to better understand their change of heart.

How about the fact that this group you're referring to simply just don't like the skater they were complaining about? I feel that's some people.

But again, for most, I think it's a matter of WHY they won despite not how many times they fall. I don't really like falls and would be OK if there was more penalization for them, but even if you invalided Hanyu's lutz + spin for falling, he still would have been second in TES (83.20 is lower than Ross' 86.74.). He would be second, overall, behind Takahashi, but still win overall.

 

[wallylutz]

The reason a lot of people aren't complaining about Hanyu's win is because Hanyu didn't win because he was given huge PCS over everyone else. Patrick would get PCS in the upper 80s for three fall programs and that's where people would hem and haw. In this program Dai won the PCS mark and Hanyu took the free based on TES. And its understandable Hanyu took it based on TES if you look at the program.

One of the biggest things of anger is when PCS are used to hold up skaters.

If I had a short memory, maybe you would have succeded with the above. As I recall, if Patrick had two or three falls in his programs, he has never won that portion of the competition. One of the most often used example to "beat him up" was his Skate Canada Int. win a few years ago where he fell three times in the FS, yet he was actually ranked 4th in the FS but won overall due to the strength of his SP where the other skaters made mistakes. In the past, you have specfically complained about Chan's scores, not the just the PCS but the TES as well where you called for a redesign of the jumping scores to penalize the falls more. Why are you now suddenly much more understanding about Hanyu's falls and the high TES that followed? I don't understand your change of heart, it's very perplexing to say the least. Furthermore, Hanyu won not just overall but the FS with two falls over the clean performance of Ross Miner in both TES and PCS. Don't you find that outrageous? Miner had a Quad and two Triple Axels, and every other jump and unlike Hanyu who had two falls, Miner was clean. You'd think Miner would at least won on the TES, right but no, he wasn't.

As for Hanyu's FS performance itself, for him to score 78 in PCS in such favorable environment - NHK, hometown, leader after the SP, is quite telling. The performance was subpar, he was not expressing the music as well as he could and he looked tired. And why he insists on wearing flashy gloves in Johnny Weir-esque way is perplexing as he has done that way too many times - it's fun once, maybe twice, but every year? He needs to grow up and skate like one. The fact his PCS dropped so much compared to his SP should be a clear warning sign. When Takahashi or Chan underformed in their FS vs. the SP, their relative PCS don't drop that much vis-a-vis their SP. Had that skate being outside of Japan, Hanyu would have been lucky to get that much in PCS.

 

[wallylutz]

How about the fact that this group you're referring to simply just don't like the skater they were complaining about? I feel that's some people.

In other words, selective complaining because their favorite didn't win as opposed to genuine outrage, well if so, that's sad.

 

[Mrs. P]

In other words, selective complaining because their favorite didn't win as opposed to genuine outrage, well if so, that's sad.

Well again, keyword is some. I would argue few. Most genuinely just question the results.

If I had a short memory, maybe you would have succeded with the above. As I recall, if Patrick had two or three falls in his programs, he has never won that portion of the competition. One of the most often used example to "beat him up" was his Skate Canada Int. win a few years ago where he fell three times in the FS, yet he was actually ranked 4th in the FS but won overall due to the strength of his SP where the other skaters made mistakes. In the past, you have specfically complained about Chan's scores, not the just the PCS but the TES as well where you called for a redesign of the jumping scores to penalize the falls more. Why are you now suddenly much more understanding about Hanyu's falls and the high TES that followed? I don't understand your change of heart, it's very perplexing to say the least. Furthermore, Hanyu won not just overall but the FS with two falls over the clean performance of Ross Miner in both TES and PCS. Don't you find that outrageous? Miner had a Quad and two Triple Axels, and every other jump and unlike Hanyu who had two falls, Miner was clean. You'd think Miner would at least won on the TES, right but no, he wasn't.

As for Hanyu's FS performance itself, for him to score 78 in PCS in such favorable environment - NHK, hometown, leader after the SP, is quite telling. The performance was subpar, he was not expressing the music as well as he could and he looked tired. And why he insists on wearing flashy gloves in Johnny Weir-esque way is perplexing as he has done that way too many times - it's fun once, maybe twice, but every year? He needs to grow up and skate like one. The fact his PCS dropped so much compared to his SP should be a clear warning sign. When Takahashi or Chan underformed in their FS vs. the SP, their relative PCS don't drop that much vis-a-vis their SP. Had that skate being outside of Japan, Hanyu would have been lucky to get that much in PCS.

Patrick actually was 4th in the SP and first in the FS. I actually did not agree with the results of that particular competition because you had him beating both Adam Rippon and Nobunari Oda who did a lot more technically but Patrick still won despite, what I feel were some very disruptive falls in both programs, particularly in his SP. That was one competition where I felt he was overscored on PCS for how he actually performed on the ice.

That said, I don't think all his wins were questionable, didn't have a problem with his COR win this season.

As for Hanyu -- the kid's 17! Of course he's not going to skate with as much artistry or maturity as skaters who are several years older than him. And that was reflected in his PCS relative to Takahashi. That said, his PCS could stand to be a bit lower the judges marked him down considerably at SA, scoring him at 72.11, and I think he did a bit better here in the performance, so I'd say 74-75 is reasonable in the low 7s.

 

[FTnoona]

As for Hanyu -- the kid's 17! Of course he's not going to skate with as much artistry or maturity as skaters who are several years older than him. And that was reflected in his PCS relative to Takahashi. That said, his PCS could stand to be a bit lower the judges marked him down considerably at SA, scoring him at 72.11, and I think he did a bit better here in the performance, so I'd say 74-75 is reasonable in the low 7s.

Hanyu actually scored lower in PCS at NHK than at SA. At SA he scored 79.56. He got 78.78 at NHK. The 72.11 was his TES.

 

[Mrs. P]

Hanyu actually scored lower in PCS at NHK than at SA. At SA he scored 79.56. He got 78.78 at NHK. The 72.11 was his TES.

Opps, you're right! Thanks for the correction. My point stands that his PCS should be lower -- but just a few points.

 

[Tonichelle]

Let's try not to drudge up old arguments just for the sake of arguing. :disapp:

 

[Bluebonnet]

The reason a lot of people aren't complaining about Hanyu's win is because Hanyu didn't win because he was given huge PCS over everyone else. Patrick would get PCS in the upper 80s for three fall programs and that's where people would hem and haw. In this program Dai won the PCS mark and Hanyu took the free based on TES. And its understandable Hanyu took it based on TES if you look at the program.

One of the biggest things of anger is when PCS are used to hold up skaters.

How funny you've said that! How about this:

Program Components Factor

Skating Skills 2.00 8.75 9.00 8.25 8.75 8.75 8.75 9.25 8.80
Transitions/Linking Footwork/Movements 2.00 8.50 8.25 7.75 8.50 9.00 8.25 9.00 8.50
Performance/Execution 2.00 8.50 8.50 7.00 8.50 8.25 8.50 9.00 8.45
Choreography/Composition 2.00 9.00 9.00 8.00 8.75 8.75 8.75 9.25 8.85
Interpretation of the music 2.00 8.75 8.75 8.25 9.00 9.00 8.75 9.25 8.85

Judges Total Program Components Score (factorized) 86.90

Total eleven 9s including three 9.25 in PCS. And that was for a three-fall LP. Fits exactly like what you've described, three falls, PCS in the upper 80s (That was just the average. There were 11 9s and above 9s.). No outrageous cry on that. The same people who have cried outloud on Chan's falls were totally silent on this one. What do you say about that?!

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Let's try not to drudge up old arguments just for the sake of arguing. :disapp:

These arguments and the thoughts and feelings behind them rather dictate how I engage with this board, fwiw.

 

[Butterscotch17]

I just got to see everyone on TV. Takahashi's long program was the one that moved me the most. (Act surprised.) This isn't to take away from anything Hanyu did; they showed his short and long programs, and obviously the guy's on his way to be a skating giant. But he still skates like a boy (not like a junior skater, I hasten to add, but like someone not yet matured into his power). Daisuke skates like a man, a mature artist and a commanding technician. I can't parse the skating skills and whatnot--that's not how I look at skating. But when I compare things like the footwork and spins of Daisuke to the other skaters in this competition, what I see is Dai's fluidity. His footwork and spins seem to unroll like ribbon, like dance, from somewhere inside the music. All the other skaters--Miner, Fernandez, even Hanyu to a degree--seem to be flinging themselves around in a dutiful sort of way. At times they're almost lumbering around, as if their feet have weights in them. After a few measures, I look away and continue with my task of organizing my sewing materials. (Exception: what an Ina Bauer Hanyu has!) With Daisuke, I'm riveted to the screen. There are a few movements in his spins that I can't even imagine how he made, because they seem to violate the laws of physics. How can he insert that little sideways kick without falling over? At those moments, I think that the force that keeps him upright is the music itself. This guy has something no one else has, and I'll watch him avidly no matter what ranking he attains with his performance. It's pure sorcery. Congratulations to all three medalists! But a special cheer for Daisuke.

Wow, beautiful post about Daisuke. I totally agree with all that you said, you put into words everything I was thinking.

 

[Butterscotch17]

I see your point and I love Dai too, but I don't think he was better than Yuzuru in the free - Dai UR'd and two footed his second quad (which made it worth less than Yuzuru's 3F) and fell on his second 3A, which needed to be in combination. Yuzuru OTOH got credit for two quads, had two nice 3As in the second half, and generally hit his jumps except for the lutz at the end. I think the PCS gap was about right as well - Dai's FS this year doesn't really bring out his best, and the first part of the program is a bit empty. That said, he's definitely way more developed artistically, and his performance built up to the end, which is accounted for in the 4+ pt PCS difference. If you drop Yuzuru's PCS by even 2 pts, that puts him in the same PCS range as Miner/Fernandez: his free isn't as strong as his short (his short would be hard to match) and he does lose steam toward the end, but its chock full of transitions and imo his SS are superior to theirs.

Anyway, I'm not looking for an argument either, just wanted to put my two cents in . I'm actually hoping Dai kills it in the GPF (he can win if he does) and that his programs will grow on me. No doubt the men will be bringing it in the Final, its gonna be a super competition.

Thanks for this post, you made some good points, and you are probably right. After looking at the protocols, I see that the numbers do add up, and I can understand now how Yuzuru was in first. I still preferred Dai's free skate more (though I'm in love with Yuzu's SP), but the judges scored Yuzu better. In the end, Yuzuru's mistakes were less costly than Dai's were. And I agree about the GPF. I think the men's GPF will be the most exciting discipline.