2014 Skate Canada Ladies FS 11/01

[OS]

I think Adelina looked pretty good during the latest Russian Cup event.

Well her 'legendary' PCS score certainly is. Despite mistakes and only accomplished the 3rd highest TES in her SP, Sotkinkova's PCS beat anything produced by Yuna Kim, Mao Asada and Carolina Kostner prior to 2012, and her LP is only 0.5 short of the Vancouver Gershwin skate.

I feel sorry for all the Russian young skaters having to compete against this her at home, talk about a safe and impossible buffer. Those complained about Ashley's 64 here is nothing compare to the 71+ Adelina gets and Ashley to me is clearly a far superior and polished performer.

 

[minze]

People are mainly arguing that Anna doesn't deserve a huge PCS gap towards Satoko - and she was scored 4 points higher in PCS.
I'd still say Satoko tops Anna in all 5 components...

And I don't disagree with Annas gold, she was rightfully in 1st. I disagree with Ashleys silver though.

Indeed. I so agree. Satoko was underscored in PCS. Why should young skater work on their skating skills, spins and all the nuances if the judges are not going to reward them for that. I get that is a sport and jumps are very important but if you dont reward what Satoko has the sport willbe full of just jumpers. Hopefully her consistency will help her get the scored she deserves

 

[OS]

I feel that skaters like Satoko and Mae are being punished because their bodies don't conform to the ideal female skater's physique, which is quite sad since they can't do anything about that. I'm from an Asian country and 16-year-old girls who look like Satoko are not uncommon and most of them don't look much different even after a puberty. Satoko may look small, but I can see her inner maturity from her serious and focused face, the programs she chose for the past 3 seasons, her posture and nice defined lines which take years to attain. She apparently has great body and muscle awareness and strength to help her gain control in fundamental skating skills. As I look up many of her still photos during the performance, I notice that her finger movements are incredibly elegant. IMHO, maturity coming from the physical look alone is superficial.

This I agree with. Unfortunately what is right in theory are rarely applicable in practice. That is why the COP is such a conundrum and figure skating is such a fascinating sport. It can be more be more about human behaviour more than what is truly fair.

 

[Meoima]

I feel that skaters like Satoko and Mae are being punished because their bodies don't conform to the ideal female skater's physique, which is quite sad since they can't do anything about that. I'm from an Asian country and 16-year-old girls who look like Satoko are not uncommon and most of them don't look much different even after a puberty. Satoko may look small, but I can see her inner maturity from her serious and focused face, the programs she chose for the past 3 seasons, her posture and nice defined lines which take years to attain. She apparently has great body and muscle awareness and strength to help her gain control in fundamental skating skills. As I look up many of her still photos during the performance, I notice that her finger movements are incredibly elegant. IMHO, maturity coming from the physical look alone is superficial.

I live in East Asia as well and as far as I can tell, ladies who were born in the big cities are getting taller. I am 1m65 which is quite rare for my generation. But I can see that many young ladies here are 1m60-1m65 at the age of 16-18. Teens are getting much taller than before. I can see guys who are over 1m8 here more frequently.

And I don't think that being small is the only reason they under-scores her PCS. Mirodi Ito was just 1m45 and she was quite successful. But of course to jump like Midori Ito is not possible for Satoko IMO. What Satoko needs the most right now is to jump bigger and fully rotate her jumps.

Agree about Mae. I can see Bonaly 2.0.

 

[minze]

Well her 'legendary' PCS score certainly is. Despite mistakes and only accomplished the 3rd lowest TES in her SP, Sotkinkova's PCS beat anything produced by Yuna Kim and Mao Asada prior to 2012, and her LP is only 0.5 short of the Vancouver Gershwin skate.

I feel sorry for all the Russian young skaters having to compete against this her at home, talk about a safe and impossible buffer. Those complained about Ashley's 64 here is nothing compare to the 71+ Adelina gets and Ashley to me is clearly a far superior and polished performer.

Everyone including Adelina got inflated scores last year... But in many ways Adelina is a better skater than Ashley

 

[Barb]

Small jumps and tiny frame which makes she look junior-ish. I also think she was underscored in PCS here but to be frankly judges are also human. Standing beside Anna Pogo, Satoko look so small and tiny while Anna looks so mature. To be frankly, Anna looks even more mature than Adelina IMO.
Anna might be sloopy but she has huge jumps and fierceness and her looks help a lot (bigger presence on ice). And her package this year is not that bad.
Not to mention jumps are the elements that get the highest scores.

For me to skate juniorish is the way of to skate, not the frame or the look of the person. For me juniorish are unpolished movements, usually is associated to young people because they can not control well their movements, like kids dancing, usually are clumsy, it bothers me not because they are kids or young, it bothers me because the movements are awkward, and for me Anna looks more juniorish than Satoko.

 

[Meoima]

For me to skate juniorish is the way of to skate, not the frame or the look of the person. For me juniorish are unpoished movements, usually is associated to young people because they can not control well their movements, like kids dancing, usually are clumsy, it bothers me not because they are kids or young, it bothers me because the movements are awkward, and for me Anna looks more juniorish than Satoko.

I don't think so. Anna might be sloopy but in no way anyone can say she's Junior-ish. Her movements might be frantic but it doesn't make her Junior-ish. Her fierceness, her determination make her looks mature. She looks even more mature than Adelina.
Satoko, on the other hand, even though I find her LP phenomenonal, I can't help but thinking: a child, not a young lady. That's the difference.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I don't understand Ashley's interpretation marks. Apparently raising your arms slowly while doing crossovers, spread eagles, or during stand still posing is what people call "mature skating". Like this ( http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...Fo&tbm=isch&client=safari&ved=0CCwQMygkMCQ4ZA ). I actually counted 15 arm raises with a few going to video review before I stopped. I do however think she earned her silver and sold BOTH of her programs even though both are not my cup of tea. She is a fighter and it shows.

Satoko's FS was the most musical and probably the best CH we've seen this year. But being Musical doesn't equate to automatic "every PCS point needs to be higher". Straight to the point. As a newbie she needs to fix her jumps. I said it earlier but her Performamce was quite captivating in real time but instant replay told a different story. If you can't leave a good impression on the judges when the grade your TES I think it tends to bleed over in terms of their generosity when it's time to give out PCS. Anyway I would have had her INT and CH higher. Anna is much more daring and impressive in SS IMO.

The only person I felt was truely underscored on PCS was Courtney.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

For me to skate juniorish is the way of to skate, not the frame or the look of the person. For me juniorish are unpolished movements, usually is associated to young people because they can not control well their movements, like kids dancing, usually are clumsy, it bothers me not because they are kids or young, it bothers me because the movements are awkward, and for me Anna looks more juniorish than Satoko.

THIS.

Jumps are the biggest elements in FS, so of course they count. Anna definitely has better looks, and big presence on ice, aside from her huge jumps. Judges have no reason to underscore Satoko given the fact that she is now considered JSf No.2 or maybe no.1. And they have not much reason to over-score Anna Pogo because she is not even Russian no.1, she is their no.3 or even 4.

Jumps have zero to do with PCS...? Why are you bringing them up in that argument?
And stop talking about Annas looks as an explanation for her PCS I couldn't care less.

 

[ks777]

I don't think so. Anna might be sloopy but in no way anyone can say she's Junior-ish. Her movements might be frantic but it doesn't make her Junior-ish. Her fierceness, her determination make her looks mature. She looks even more mature than Adelina.
Satoko, on the other hand, even though I find her LP phenomenonal, I can't help but thinking: a child, not a young lady. That's the difference.

That's just you though. There is nothing about her skating that makes me think of her as a child. The only things is her height and jumps. Obviously you can't get over her height and tiny jumps, that's why you can't look at her as more than a child.

 

[Mrs. P]

I think it's a matter of projection/presence, not whether one looks junior or not. I think CoyoteChris pointed out elsewhere that Satoko is a good skater but needs to work on projecting herself to the audience. Her small frame is a handicap.

I hope Chris will be able to present his observations from the arena.

I call it skating big. Adelina is one of those skaters who really projects herself really well. I remember that from seeing her live at Skate America a few years back. Ashley has less of a presence but still projects pretty well, IMO.

As for getting a standing ovation, it cesta tingly deserved, but it doesn't translate to higher scores. I remember Christina Gao got a standing o at Skate America, but she still got lower PCS than Adelina, who made several errors. (Though beat her overall).

So perhaps Anna somehow projects well despite not being a performer in way we would like to see it. I hope some arena watchers can chime in.

 

[OS]

Everyone including Adelina got inflated scores last year... But in many ways Adelina is a better skater than Ashley

Actually hardly EVERYONE is it? The reason the inflation started is because once they start to inflate someone towards an agenda/target, they have no choice but to inflate someone else compete with them on a relative scale, this create an illusion for everyone, but it is really just 2 or 3 in particular.

They need to establish benchmarking and artificial momentum to justify the scores comes crunch time, hence as many friendly and home events as possible. Of course this momentum completely died at Sochi for EVERYONE else but only applicable to the Russian skaters at Sochi, where they managed to successfully propped 2nd mark closer to their target. Nobody became a great skater in 2 months, nor do their program improve as much.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Jumps have zero to do with PCS...? Why are you bringing them up in that argument?

Um...that's not really correct. If people double foot,under rotate, or fall on jumps it can and should affect the TR scores by a point or two depending on the severity. It's very tough to effectively execute a transition out of a blundered jump. Disruptive jumps and spins can also affect the P/E and throw off the CH to the point where it's effectiveness is weakened. So yeah...you can't directly reduce PCS from bad jumps alone but they sure can affect PCS indirectly. I also think good PCS opens the door for more generous GOE which increases the TES. These things are not mutually exclusive and do not oppereate 100% independent ftom each other as some say. They interact with each other to some extent.

 

[[email protected]]

Well her 'legendary' PCS score certainly is. Despite mistakes and only accomplished the 3rd lowest TES in her SP, Sotkinkova's PCS beat anything produced by Yuna Kim, Mao Asada and Carolina Kostner prior to 2012, and her LP is only 0.5 short of the Vancouver Gershwin skate.

I feel sorry for all the Russian young skaters having to compete against this her at home, talk about a safe and impossible buffer. Those complained about Ashley's 64 here is nothing compare to the 71+ Adelina gets and Ashley to me is clearly a far superior and polished performer.

The pcs score she received in Sochi is irrelevant. CoR is just in 2 weeks. PCS there will be relevant. Especially interesting will be to compare them with Ashley's.

 

[thoakun]

I don't understand Ashley's interpretation marks. Apparently raising your arms slowly while doing crossovers, spread eagles, or during stand still posing is what people call "mature skating". Like this ( http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...Fo&tbm=isch&client=safari&ved=0CCwQMygkMCQ4ZA ). I actually counted 15 arm raises with a few going to video review before I stopped. I do however think she earned her silver and sold BOTH of her programs even though both are not my cup of tea. She is a fighter and it shows.

For me, Ashley's ar movements have always been stiff and boringly repetitive and her facial expressions are no better than Satoko. While Satoko is said to be stoic, Ashley keeps putting on the feisty smirky face. She's just better at making people believe that she feels the music. I never see her as being artistic, but projection and artistry are two different matters and what she puts on the ice is easy to see and I appreciate how hard she tries to sell her program. Her presentation didn't come naturally and she has to work on it.

 

[Meoima]

THIS.
Jumps have zero to do with PCS...? Why are you bringing them up in that argument?
And stop talking about Annas looks as an explanation for her PCS I couldn't care less.

You haven't follow JGP this season? You know Bo Yang who looks totally lost on the ice exept his quads? Do you know how much PCS he gets? If not for his jumps, I can see no reason for the judges to score him that level of PCS at all. Judges tend to be impressed by the big tricks, that affect in PCS. There's no guideline about that but in reality it has been like that for long.

And frankly I don't care much about the looks, I don't want to sound like skyfly here, but have you watched the medal ceremony? Satoko looks 11 beside Anna Pogo who looks 20. People who are saying looks is superficial in FS surely should recheck their minds. Skaters should just go out to the rink without costume and make-up. I would like to see that but sadly it will not happen. I don't want to see some ghastly costumes anymore.

I never say the way they judge the scores are right. But that is also a fact, sadly. We are here talking like judging should be like this like that, but they have to stay in the arena all days, watching and judging 30 performances a day!!! Do the judges care that the skater A or B should get higher PCS if the placement is right according to them?

 

[Barb]

You haven't follow JGP this season? You know Bo Yang who looks totally lost on the ice exept his quads? Do you know how much PCS he gets? If not for his jumps, I can see no reason for the judges to score him that level of PCS at all. Judges tend to be impressed by the big tricks, that affect in PCS. There's no guideline about that but in reality it has been like that for long.

And frankly I don't care much about the looks, I don't want to sound like skyfly here, but have you watched the medal ceremony? Satoko looks 11 beside Anna Pogo who looks 20. People who are saying looks is superficial in FS surely should recheck their minds. Skaters should just go out to the rink without costume and make-up. I would like to see that but sadly it will not happen. I don't want to see some ghastly costumes anymore.

I never say the way they judge the scores are right. But that is also a fact, sadly. We are here talking like judging should be like this like that, but they have to stay in the arena all days, watching and judging 30 performances a day!!! Do the judges care that the skater A or B should get higher PCS if the placement is right according to them?

some pages back you were complaining about people caring about makeup and speaking not so good about Anna´s look.
At least nobody was relating her look with her scores.

 

[OS]

The pcs score she received in Sochi is irrelevant. CoR is just in 2 weeks. PCS there will be relevant. Especially interesting will be to compare them with Ashley's.

Uhh.. the PCS I have quoted is her most recent competition happened only last week not at Sochi. Cup of Russia is in Russia, if there's anywhere in the world Russia can assure her legitimacy, is through PCS proof her as much as possible at Cup of Russia. The political dynamics will be interesting for sure, I doubt any other competition will attract as many interest among the ladies competition for the reason of Adelina factor. Ashley is in a very good position to qualify, but I would be utterly shocked if she get anywhere near Adelina. How they actually perform on the day is almost irrelevant to how I know their PCS will get rewarded, that is why it makes it sad.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

And frankly I don't care much about the looks, I don't want to sound like skyfly here, but have you watched the medal ceremony? Satoko looks 11 beside Anna Pogo who looks 20.

No, I haven't watched the medal ceremony - and I'm pretty sure the judges didn't either before they handed out the LP PCS.

Um...that's not really correct. If people double foot,under rotate, or fall on jumps it can and should affect the TR scores by a point or two depending on the severity. It's very tough to effectively execute a transition out of a blundered jump. Disruptive jumps and spins can also affect the P/E and throw off the CH to the point where it's effectiveness is weakened. So yeah...you can't directly reduce PCS from bad jumps alone but they sure can affect PCS indirectly. I also think good PCS opens the door for more generous GOE which increases the TES. These things are not mutually exclusive and do not oppereate 100% independent ftom rach other as some say. They interact with each other to some extent.

I wasn't talking about errors on jumps, but mainly the general quality of someones jumps - like that of Annas vs. Satokos.
That aside, technical errors aren't meant to be taken into account in the PCS. I don't agree with it, but that's how it is.

 

[Meoima]

some pages back you were complaining about people caring about makeup and speaking not so good about Anna´s look.

I see no contradiction at all. I said the ladies use make-up so the judges can see them. People who are complaining that makep-up is too heavy should go and visit the arena to see the use of make-up in reality. Audience and judges from the afar might not think of that as heavy makeup at all.
Do I like make-up? No. But I accept it as a part of FS.

At least nobody was relating her look with her scores.

Looking mature is different from looking pretty. All these young ladies here are pretty, most look mature. But that's not the only factor.
Look mature, jump big, skate fast... The "looks" here means overall impression, the overall presence.