2015 Russian Nationals Mens SP

[text_skate]

I uploaded a few of the ESPN videos here (Voronov, Petrov, Menshov, + Pitkeev uploading now).

I wonder why they changed Adian's music cuts? It sounds really strange now. But his jumps are to die for!

Thanks for upploading.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

When compared with what Kovtun got for PCS, yes, he did! Of course both scores were ridiculously high. But Plushenko is so much better, and should have been ahead, and when they gave Kovtun his joke PCS it guaranteed that Plushenko's were going to be silly.

So you're saying a clean program with 2 quads and essentially the highest content that can be executed for an SP getting 45.10 PCS (times two is 90.20) is comparably egregious as a program with a UR quad, tripled quad, a doubled 3A, a doubled 3Z, only one combo, and ridiculously basic choreography outside the elements (other than footwork sequences) getting 95 PCS (Kovtun on the other hand did two quads + two triple axels, and all other triples, and got 89 PCS). There is simply no comparison to the joke that was Plu's 95 PCS for that FS. It shouldn't have even deserved 90 PCS but it was obvious the judges were trying to prop him up... I mean he beat Voronov in the FS).

Tell me if this http://youtu.be/Sxe9nEbBtDQ getting 95 PCS, with Kovtun getting 89 PCS, is worse than Kovtun getting 45 PCS for a clean skate with two quads and Voronov/Menshov getting 42/41. It's one thing to overscored a skater who does well but to give 95/100 PCS to a skater who totally bombs?!

 

[exerym]

Actually they didn't change Adian' SP music cuts. Check out a fan cam video in Adian's thread. It sounds the same.

 

[silverfoxes]

Actually they didn't change Adian' SP music cuts. Check out a fan cam video in Adian's thread. It sounds the same.

Hmm, I thought it had some changes from the recording he used at his GP events, but maybe it's just the acoustics in the rink that make it sound off.

edit - Dailymotion rejected Adian's video due to copyright, so I put it on Vimeo

 

[Li'Kitsu]

IMO a clean skate with 2 quads deserves 41-42 points PCS if a skate with one quad (in a flawed combo at that) gets 42.50 PCS. That's mid 8's, which I would give to Kovtun's skate which was well performed outside of the elements. It's really unfortunate when people say a clean program with 2 quads should score less than a program with one quad and a error on the quad at that. I get Kovtun isn't everyone's cup of tea, but he skated one of the SPs this season.

Men do 4T, 3A and 3Z+3T and get 92-93 points so Kovtun deserves 95 points with 4S+3T, 4T, 3A -- the hardest content one could perform and has performed (save for Mroz's quad lutz). Difficulty deserves to be rewarded. And to top it off, I don't really see people complaining about Menshov and Voronov's PCS.

Probably you were already told this several times, but: PCS is NOT supposed to be tied to the technical elements. It's arguable if it should be tied to the clean execution of an element, but definitely not to the difficulty. That's what BV (and even GOE) is for. If a skater has bad SS, TR, CH, IN and PE, he needs to get bad PCS, even is he does a 4A in his SP.
Additionally, if you want to talk PCS seriously - do what the judges can't do, remember that there are 5 different categories. Kovtun getting mid-8's? In what? Transitions? That's probably one of the "wrongest" things if ever heard on this board.

 

[uhh]

Kovtun's TR score should be lower, but given what other skaters got here, the other PCS marks are fine for Nationals. He's got decent speed, nice ice coverage & cleaner edges than the other top guys apart from maybe Adian. The choreo won't be to everyone's taste, but it's logically consistent with the music & he performed it well and cleanly. None of them should be getting super high PCS, but it's right that he should be on top and the amount he was inflated by is in line with how much everyone else was.

 

[Interspectator]

Yes, Kovtun may not be very appealing and Vornov may be sooo charming...but when you actually look at the programs, Kovtun's is more COP friendly than Vornov's.

Vornov telegraphs his jumps like crazy...even more than Kovtun. Vornov has almost no transitions.
Vornov is slower than Kovtun, his step sequences are less difficult (though more entertaining)

I may like Vornov 10 times more than Kovtun, but Kovtun deserves to score much higher than Vornov when he skates clean.
JMO.

 

[yay]

PCS is NOT supposed to be tied to the technical elements. It's arguable if it should be tied to the clean execution of an element, but definitely not to the difficulty. That's what BV (and even GOE) is for. If a skater has bad SS, TR, CH, IN and PE, he needs to get bad PCS, even is he does a 4A in his SP.

In fact, it's been the opposite for years. If a skater performs both a clean and difficult program he/she gets (significantly) rewarded in PCS, and not only in the execution/performance category, but in the rest of them as well. That's how the system motivates skaters to improve technically, if you like. I can't see why Kovtun has to be an exception.
A recent example - Hanyu's PCS for the last free skate.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Yes, Kovtun may not be very appealing and Vornov may be sooo charming...but when you actually look at the programs, Kovtun's is more COP friendly than Vornov's.

Vornov telegraphs his jumps like crazy...even more than Kovtun. Vornov has almost no transitions.
Vornov is slower than Kovtun, his step sequences are less difficult (though more entertaining)

I may like Vornov 10 times more than Kovtun, but Kovtun deserves to score much higher than Vornov when he skates clean.
JMO.

This. It's obvious that Kovtun is a better skater, so if you're going to be ridiculous and give Voronov/Menshov 41-42 PCS it makes sense to give Kovtun higher.

In a legit international competition, Kovtun would get 41-42 for a clean skate and Voronov/Menshov sub-40. Just like there's no sane international comp where Plu's FS would get 95 PCS - even if he had gone completely clean.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Kovtun's TR score should be lower, but given what other skaters got here, the other PCS marks are fine for Nationals. He's got decent speed, nice ice coverage & cleaner edges than the other top guys apart from maybe Adian. The choreo won't be to everyone's taste, but it's logically consistent with the music & he performed it well and cleanly. None of them should be getting super high PCS, but it's right that he should be on top and the amount he was inflated by is in line with how much everyone else was.

Exactly.

I'll state the obvious: if Kovtun were likeable as a person instead of immature/bratty and if people didn't have a soft spot for skaters like Voronov/Menshov who have been continually screwed by the Russian fed, NOBODY would be complaining about the scores/scoring gaps and just chalk it up to Nationals scoring.

 

[silverfoxes]

Yes, Kovtun may not be very appealing and Vornov may be sooo charming...but when you actually look at the programs, Kovtun's is more COP friendly than Vornov's.

Vornov telegraphs his jumps like crazy...even more than Kovtun. Vornov has almost no transitions.
Vornov is slower than Kovtun, his step sequences are less difficult (though more entertaining)

I may like Vornov 10 times more than Kovtun, but Kovtun deserves to score much higher than Vornov when he skates clean.
JMO.

When Kovtun hunches over and does all those turns before he jumps...is that not telegraphing? Or is that considered a transition - and if so, does anyone seriously find that attractive? It looks dreadful.

He was less sloppy today than he normally is, and I am not against him being in first place today, but to say "he deserves to score much higher than Voronov when he skates clean"...no, I don't think so (except in TES), and it has nothing to do with how much I prefer one's personality over the other. I would never give Kovtun high marks for interpretation, and mediocre at best in performance/execution.

 

[Interspectator]

When Kovtun hunches over and does all those turns before he jumps...is that not telegraphing? Or is that considered a transition - and if so, does anyone seriously find that attractive? It looks dreadful.

He was less sloppy today than he normally is, and I am not against him being in first place today, but to say "he deserves to score much higher than Voronov when he skates clean"...no, I don't think so (except in TES), and it has nothing to do with how much I prefer one's personality over the other. I would never give Kovtun high marks for interpretation, and mediocre at best in performance/execution.

That's why I said 'even more than Kovtun'. Vornov's telegraphing is more blatant than Kovtuns. It's not like we're talking about the difference between Chan and Takahashi here.
These two guys have quite a lot of areas that need improving. -But over all Kovtun's programs will get him more points in PCS than Vornov's.

EDIT: PE and IN is definitely Vornov's strong point and I'd give him higher scores for that.
SS, TR, CH would go to Kovtun.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

In fact, it's been the opposite for years. If a skater performs both a clean and difficult program he/she gets (significantly) rewarded in PCS, and not only in the execution/performance category, but in the rest of them as well. That's how the system motivates skaters to improve technically, if you like. I can't see why Kovtun has to be an exception.
A recent example - Hanyu's PCS for the last free skate.

Even if you think the judges are doing it - it is still not what the rules say should be done. IMO, it's also not what a little bit of thinking about this system would tell you. Judges also aren't capable to differentiate between the different PCS categories - that also doesn't make it right, it's still BS.

And for Hanyu: his PCS might also be going up because he's actually a WAY better skater than Kovtun. He's also the OGM and the WC. I don't think Kovtun is any of that.

In a legit international competition, Kovtun would get 41-42 for a clean skate and Voronov/Menshov sub-40. Just like there's no sane international comp where Plu's FS would get 95 PCS - even if he had gone completely clean.

And that's a dreadful thing to happen to this poor sport. Completely independently from your fixation with Plus scores from last year.

When Kovtun hunches over and does all those turns before he jumps...is that not telegraphing? Or is that considered a transition - and if so, does anyone seriously find that attractive? It looks dreadful.

He was less sloppy today than he normally is, and I am not against him being in first place today, but to say "he deserves to score much higher than Voronov when he skates clean"...no, I don't think so (except in TES), and it has nothing to do with how much I prefer one's personality over the other. I would never give Kovtun high marks for interpretation, and mediocre at best in performance/execution.

:thumbsup: I have to admit I even prefer Menshovs or Voronovs stalking before their jumps because watching their posture alone doesn't make my back hurt - that still doesn't mean I think they should be getting good marks for TR. The thing is Kovtun shouldn't either.

 

[Sandpiper]

Having seen the top 3, I would say Kovtun deserves the lead based on being the best balance of clean and difficult. But 6 points? Not sure...

PCS-wise, Kovtun has the edge in SS and maybe a little bit in TR. But CH, PE, INT? I'd give those to Voronov. I'm not a fan of this particular program, but it's no worse than Kovtun's, and Voronov sells it a lot better.

If anything, my favourite was Menshov. Of the three, he acknowledged the nuances of the music best, especially during his step sequence. I wouldn't mark his hand down vs. Kovtun's turn-out/step-out as 6 points of difference. If only Menshov could nail it in the free skate...

@Gallavich
Thank you for the videos. A good service for folks like me, without the requisite service providers.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Probably you were already told this several times, but: PCS is NOT supposed to be tied to the technical elements. It's arguable if it should be tied to the clean execution of an element, but definitely not to the difficulty. That's what BV (and even GOE) is for. If a skater has bad SS, TR, CH, IN and PE, he needs to get bad PCS, even is he does a 4A in his SP.
Additionally, if you want to talk PCS seriously - do what the judges can't do, remember that there are 5 different categories. Kovtun getting mid-8's? In what? Transitions? That's probably one of the "wrongest" things if ever heard on this board.

So a male skater who has an excellent program/skating skills can execute a "clean skate" with 3T-2T, 2A and 3S in their SP and deserve 45 PCS over a skater who lands a 4T/3A/3-3?

And Likitsu I personally find nothing wrong with a skater like Kovtun getting 41-42 PCS for a clean skate with 2 quads ... But I take issue with people saying "Yuzuru normally gets 101 for a perfect skate, so a fall and 94 points is fine". Same goes for past scores of Chan too. And Kostner. And many others.

It's mind boggling how people will cry foul and say skaters don't deserve PCS for clean technically difficult skates and then defend scores of skaters who fall/make major errors because they're "overall a better skater" and "compared to his max score...".

That is what kills our sport.. When a skater can commit 5 falls and still end up 2nd. Not when a skater skates clean with essentially maximum possible content and gets rewarded for it. Not many skaters attempt two quads in their SP so the moment a skater actually does a practically clean program te first response is - OVERSCORED!, while a skater who falls an has just one quad gets a break "oh well, mathematically let's deduct from past maximum scores to justify it". It's ridiculous.

 

[Mathman]

This. It's obvious that Kovtun is a better skater, so if you're going to be ridiculous and give Voronov/Menshov 41-42 PCS it makes sense to give Kovtun higher.

Actually, Newbieskater said that Kovtun's program was more CoP friendly than Voronov's, not that he is a better skater.

Vornov telegraphs his jumps like crazy...even more than Kovtun.

For some reason, I don't mind a long and purposeful set-up for a highlight jump. It is a different way of showcasing your big technical elements, but not, to me, an inferior one.

Just like there's no sane international comp where Plu's FS would get 95 PCS - even if he had gone completely clean.

? Plushenko didn't skate. Time to move on.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Actually, Newbieskater said that Kovtun's program was more CoP friendly than Voronov's, not that he is a better skater.



For some reason, I don't mind a long and purposeful set-up for a highlight jump. It is a different way of showcasing your big technical elements, but not, to me, an inferior one.




? Plushenko didn't skate. Time to move on.

In context of over scoring at Russian Nationals it's relevant. I was merely pointing out that over scoring has happened in past Russian Nationals (and many Nationals, yes). Then Karne suggested that Kovtun getting 45 for a clean skate with two quads was more egregious than Plushenko's flawed skate getting 95 (essentially because he's "earned it" or whatever). My point was that Russian Nationals shouldn't ever be about scoring, since that is ridiculous and inaccurate, what matters is placements. I think everyone agrees Kovtun should be ahead of Menshov and Voronov and based on technical content/output, Kovtun deserves to be 5-6 points higher than the other two.

Of course Kovtun doesn't deserve 45 PCS but who cares when all the guys are equally overscored. As for 41/42 PCS for a clean skate i think that's fine... Kovtun is still a good skater and when a good but not great skater goes clean with 2 quads that to me deserves an overall score that is better than a great skater who falls.

If Kovtun is making people's heads explode by overscoring wait until he starts doing more SPs like this on the world scene - it will be very difficult for judges not to reward him for high tech content and clean skates. Look at Radionova this year or Lip last year.

 

[Meoima]

come on, it's just Russian Nationals, all scores are inflated. we know some only do well at Nationals, and not so well in international competition...

 

[Sandpiper]

In context of over scoring at Russian Nationals it's relevant. I was merely pointing out that over scoring has happened in past Russian Nationals (and many Nationals, yes). Then Karne suggested that Kovtun getting 45 for a clean skate with two quads was more egregious than Plushenko's flawed skate getting 95 (essentially because he's "earned it" or whatever). My point was that Russian Nationals shouldn't ever be about scoring, since that is ridiculous and inaccurate, what matters is placements. I think everyone agrees Kovtun should be ahead of Menshov and Voronov and based on technical content/output, Kovtun deserves to be 5-6 points higher than the other two.

Of course Kovtun doesn't deserve 45 PCS but who cares when all the guys are equally overscored. As for 41/42 PCS for a clean skate i think that's fine... Kovtun is still a good skater and when a good but not great skater goes clean with 2 quads that to me deserves an overall score that is better than a great skater who falls.

If Kovtun is making people's heads explode by overscoring wait until he starts doing more SPs like this on the world scene - it will be very difficult for judges not to reward him for high tech content and clean skates. Look at Radionova this year or Lip last year.

Several things:

If all that matters is placement and not the scores, why are you (still) bringing up Plushenko's scores from a year ago? He lost, didn't he? And pretty much the same thing applies to Hanyu at GPF; he was overscored, but he deserved the win.

Kovtun had a turn-out; Menshov had a hand down. While the latter was a bigger mistake and more disruptive, I don't think it's 6 points worse. That's all I really can say, because yes, whether they give Kovtun 45 or 35 isn't what matters. As long as the numbers work out tomorrow and there's no 2013 Worlds situation.

Also, are you saying that if Kovtun had skated clean, you would've given him the same PCS as Machida at GPF? I... really can't agree with that, not when Machida's error was stepping out of a -3T. I mean, if Machida had went splat on his combo, then tripped during his footwork sequence, then couldn't hold a spin... Then I might understand.

Elena and Yulia are better than Kovtun in every area of PCS, in addition to their better consistency (well, Yulia before this season).

 

[WYW]

If Kovtun is making people's heads explode by overscoring wait until he starts doing more SPs like this on the world scene - it will be very difficult for judges not to reward him for high tech content and clean skates. Look at Radionova this year or Lip last year.

I don't think international judges are so keen on Kovtun anymore (look at his GPF scores), but who knows what they are going to do in the future. In the end, if judges are consistently deducting his solo 4T due to lack of preceding steps, which they should, his solo quad is only worth 2-3 points more than a well done 3Lz. I don't think the 2 quads are giving him as much of an advantage as you think they are.