2015 Worlds Men Free Skate March 28
- Thread starter Mrs. P
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I am a HUGE Yuzu fan, but I didn't really "feel" his Chopin short program earlier on in the year. This past weekend, he performed it to near perfection. I really think he owned the program. If it wasn't for that "fall", I think he would've broken his own world record. The performance was just to sublime...even better than his PW Olympics SP in terms of quality.
Yes, that could indeed happen. But it seems so far that once Nam gets a jump, he's consistent, and that in itself is fairly rare. I think that if he takes it one step at a time and adds a quad to his SP, he could still remain consistent. Part of the problem at 4CC was that his program wasn't choreographed for a quad, and then he was doing his triple axel and 3-3 combo in the second half, which he wasn't used to. But I think if that if he trains that layout, he would be fine with it. ( Or he could do at least one of those in the first half for a year). Certainly, in the FS he manages to do two triple axels, even after he has expended energy of a quad. Let's keep in mind too, that Patrick wasn't doing even one quad at Nam's age, and also has struggled more with the triple axel.
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- Feb 13, 2014
One of the reason I think Nam was consistent is because he's quite slow on the ice, skating with huge speed costs you a lot of energy, and speeds into jumps have factors in consistency as well, great speed means the jumps might be beautiful (like Javi and Yuzuru) but riskier and less consistent. Not to mention pressure to be the one on top, it's different when you skate for the sake of your program/joy VS skate for medal. I still don't think men can be consistent when they go for 3-4 quads in both programs. I remember Shoma Uno tried 2 quads a long once in a domestic event and he felt 4 times.
Young skaters tend to be quite consistent when pressure is not on. I think at this point, consistency is something very luxury for top men as they execute too many difficult layout and injuries just toll up. I think no quad too soon for Patrick was the reason he's quite injury-free even at this point.
But this PCS!!!
Quite right. I don't argue so much with the overall placements, particularly of all the top skaters, but if you look at the PCS marks!!! The PCS are whacked. A lot of times, the judges keep the scores within a prescribed range across the board, and then when you examine PCS among two different skaters who have vastly different levels of presentations skills, it's quite mind-boggling. For example, no way Kovtun's PCS should be sooo close to Adam Rippon's. Kovtun's PCS on SS, CH and IN are way too high. While Adam's PCS are fairly reasonable, I think his choreo marks are a bit low. The interpretation is a good score for Adam, but I'd have both CH and IN a bit higher. Josh was low-balled a bit on TR, CH, and even his IN score, which is fairly reasonable could have been a bit higher. The main thing I argue with is that even though Josh's PCS are percentage points higher than Kovtun's, it's wrong for Kovtun to be even that close to either Josh or Adam. And Kozuka deserved some better PCS on CH and IN. And even Michael Christian Martinez should be receiving higher PCS (mid 7s) in some categories to reflect his superb performance qualities. Of course, he is inconsistent technically, but that should not take away from rewarding him correctly on PCS.
I don't believe the judges really know how to accurately determine what constitutes performance skill. Clearly, Javi is way over-scored on CH and IN. He skated very well technically despite the fall, but his choreo is NOT spectacular, and his IN should be scored average at best. No way in the 9s for what Javi is putting out! Those scores for CH and IN send Javi and Orser the wrong message that they are on the right track with what they put together this season. THEY ARE NOT! Javi needs to do some dance training and work harder on finding better music and choreography. Jason Brown received high PCS all in the 8s, but Jason's CH and IN should have been in the 9s right along with the top three guys.
Nam still needs to work a lot on refining his presentation skills and increasing his speed. He still skates very juniorish. But just because he has quads, he gets more credit (plus he's also currently #1 Canadian). BTW, with Nam in 5th overall, but JTen so much lower with the total placement scores adding up to 23, does this ensure Canada still gets 2 spots for their men next season? I think so, if the limit for 2 spots is 24.
Turns out that Jason Brown is the most reliable U.S. men competitor of the three on this year's team, so U.S. fed has no regrets about rewarding Jason National Champion gold. From all the quad pressure placed on them after Nationals, Kori made the choice to show everyone that Jason had the guts to go for the quad at 4CC. And so that didn't work out, but wow still what a great coach/ student relationship they have with remarkable trust and faith in each other. And Kori gives all her skaters such strength and inspiration to believe in themselves. Love Jason's darker pants (new fp outfit)! He is a solid competitor, and I don't think anyone should doubt that Jason will eventually master the quad. I just hope Jason and his team continue to do things strategically smart. I can't wait to see what Rohene will be inspired to create for Jason next season.
A bit of too much pressure on Josh in his Worlds debut with the expectations and the fact he was not 100% comfortable with blades/ boot issues. Both Adam and Josh left too many points on the table technically. But they can still hold their heads high, as I think they actually both deserve to be in the top ten in terms of talent. Sure there were others who underperformed in the fp, which helped Adam's placement. But when you add in the whacked PCS scoring, and the fact some are over-scored on PCS, and others a bit underscored, then fortunately the placements luckily evened out to where they fairly should be based on the overall performances.
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You know why he looks young? He's 16. Like what do you people expect of this kid?
ITA. A nice Worlds for Nam. He's fairly consistent but still a bit juniorish in his skating. He needs overall fine-tuning, better choreo and increasing his speed. Actually, at the age of 16, Patrick Chan was far more mature in his skating than Nam is at the same age, but development varies as to be expected among different skaters.
What a bunch of bs -- wait, let me grab my violin ...
That was 2013 and this is 2015, so water under the bridge. Many fans will always feel that D10 had the superlative overall performances at 2013 Worlds and that D10 should therefore have won. Chan was great in the sp, and the judges always had a tendency to give Chan huge scores after he had so quickly mastered the quad. D10 certainly deserved to be closer to Chan's marks in the sp, but since 2013 was D10's breakout year, he did not have the reputation for consistency and for landing quads that he has now, so the judges did not give D10 the scores he might have received if he'd had more rep at that time.
Another thing that added to the 2013 controversial fan reactions was the fact that Chan had won in 2012 over an overall better and sentimental favorite, Dai Takahashi, who had two absolutely great well/choreographed programs with memorable music selection in 2012 season.
Denis has reputation for consistency...?
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- Feb 14, 2014
Denis had far greater problems with consistency prior to 2013 than he does now. And that was largely due to injuries that he simply never mentioned prior to his coach pointing it out after 2013 Worlds. Denis is now on the same level as Javi and Hanyu in terms of consistency. Even with mistakes, all of them generally receive huge scores. Patrick Chan was the King of Huge Scores with Numerous Mistakes.
With the quads plus all the additional tech requirements, it looks like we may never see men skating two clean performances consistently, unless Jason Brown masters the quad and is able to do that and perform with his usual clean consistency.
Yep, definitely a laugh riot that all three of the top men, including Hanyu, Javi, and D10 are so inconsistent. Yeah, yuk it up.
With the quads plus all the additional tech requirements, it looks like we may never see men skating two clean performances consistently, unless Jason Brown masters the quad and is able to do that and perform with his usual clean consistency.
Yep, definitely a laugh riot that all three of the top men, including Hanyu, Javi, and D10 are so inconsistent. Yeah, yuk it up.
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Yes, Canada keeps 2 spots. The placements actually need to add up to 28, but everyone who qualifies for the FS gets 16 points (unless they place better than 16th in which case they get fewer). So Jeremy got 16 points, and Nam got 5, for a total of 21. Essentially, once both guys made it to the FS, Nam just had to place 12th or better to keep two spots.
Yes, Patrick was far more mature in his skating at 16, but he didn't get the quad until he was 20, and always continued to struggle with the triple axel. Who knows how Nam will develop over the next four years
Yes, Canada keeps 2 spots. The placements actually need to add up to 28, but everyone who qualifies for the FS gets 16 points (unless they place better than 16th in which case they get fewer). So Jeremy got 16 points, and Nam got 5, for a total of 21. Essentially, once both guys made it to the FS, Nam just had to place 12th or better to keep two spots.
Yes, Patrick was far more mature in his skating at 16, but he didn't get the quad until he was 20, and always continued to struggle with the triple axel. Who knows how Nam will develop over the next four years
Thanks for clarifying the placements conundrum. I don't know those rules backwards and forwards.
Yeah, Patrick had his to-die-for SS, such pure blade control which gives efficiency of glide and thus great speed and ice coverage. Patrick also had at that young age a good feel musically although he still needed to work on further developing his artistry, interpretation and connection to the audience. His mastery of skating skills, flow over the ice, and good music choices made up for any minor weaknesses he had earlier on in presentation. Kudos to Patrick for asking Kathy Johnson to help him work more on artistry, and for seeking Jeff Buttle's help with choreo, which was also a great boon.
Yes, Patrick's 3-axel was his weakest jump for some reason. It also was for Stephane Lambiel. Strange that they both took well to developing the quad, but had trouble with 3-axels (Lamby more than Patrick). Jeff Buttle had even worse problems mastering the 3-axel, but managed to conquer it in 2008 and win the World title as a result. Adam Rippon apparently never learned proper 3-axel technique until very recently under Rafael Arutunian, and it's still not his best jump. Adam can rip the lutz though, and that's why he's able to have middling consistency (mostly in practice) on the quad lutz.
One point though is that men were not required to work on quads when Patrick was coming up, or he may have had the quad even sooner.
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- Nov 7, 2007
If Denis was as consistent as Javier and Yuzuru, wouldn't Denis have made the GPF like them at least once by now?
Fun fact: Denis has never made the GPF before. TEB this season was the first time he EVER won a Grand Prix medal.
Yuzuru has qualified for the GPF 4 times so far, winning the GPF twice and the silver once.
Javier has qualified for the GPF 3 times so far, winning a silver and a bronze.
One point though is that men were not required to work on quads when Patrick was coming up, or he may have had the quad even sooner.
As I recall, he did get a fair bit of criticism for not having it at one point. Though probably not quite as much as Jason has gotten.
Sure, but Patrick was actually the main skater post 2010 Olympics who heeded Plushy's whining call for macho quads. Patrick mastered the quad quickly and the judges were quite thrilled to see the quad combined with Patrick's SS and thus the quad became a requirement and men's scores began going thru the roof, and then began the OTT favoring of Patrick even when he made mistakes.
The main point is that Yuzu and Javi are not that consistent either, but both of them have had the quad in their arsenal much longer than Denis. And that's what makes the difference in medal count and GPF showing. Prior to 2013, Denis was well-liked by the judges for his skill and potential but he was considered more of a second tier skater. He suffered from nerves, injuries and equipment problems. Once Denis became healthy and perfected the quad, he gained more confidence. And then he had his breakthrough at Worlds 2013 where he skated two programs better than everyone else and with more consistency and artistry. In the fall of 2013, Denis had to come back from illness and injury issues and he was able to do so successfully by the time the Olympics rolled around in 2014. Barring injury, Denis is now on a par with Hanyu and Javi in terms of ability to land quads, and in terms of consistency issues complicated by trying to navigate all the required tech content.
Patrick was working on a quad prior to the 2010 Olympics but it wasn't consistent enough at that point. He always intended to add it. It wasn't a matter of him heeding Plushy's whining call 
But yes, things are different now and the men do need both a quad and strong PCS in order to be competitive. Even Jason, though he came fourth, was nearly 20 points out of the medals
But yes, things are different now and the men do need both a quad and strong PCS in order to be competitive. Even Jason, though he came fourth, was nearly 20 points out of the medals
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- Mar 23, 2010
The criticism towards Jasons san quad is valid because he is clearly being propped as US #1 to the nth degree by his federation. The criticism wouldn't have happened if he is considered as #2 or #3. This is a sport. At this level, you skate to win. By selecting him, US federation sabotaged their own skaters by sending out the wrong messages to the ISU judges, going we just don't think our quads men are that good actually.
Although Jason is the only one that skate the lights out out of the US men and re-enforce his #1 status, he has also proved that at his absolute best, he can only be considered 5th best against these quads men however flawed and mistake prone they are.
His excellent performance and placement proves the quads criticisms are valid. Although there are alot to appreciate in his skating and his improvements are tremendous, but he doesn't have the fire power if US is seriously thinking about a podium finish.
Although Jason is the only one that skate the lights out out of the US men and re-enforce his #1 status, he has also proved that at his absolute best, he can only be considered 5th best against these quads men however flawed and mistake prone they are.
His excellent performance and placement proves the quads criticisms are valid. Although there are alot to appreciate in his skating and his improvements are tremendous, but he doesn't have the fire power if US is seriously thinking about a podium finish.
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