2016 Finlandia Trophy Mens FS

[4everchan]

You should revise #1 with "significantly higher". Something like 54% TES vs 46% PCS isn't significant...

you crack me up.

here you say that 54% versus 46 % isn't significant...

yet you say that Patrick was significantly behind with his botched SP...

let me use a calculator as I am not a scientist...

Patrick earned 84.59

Max 88.26

so the difference in percentage here, from Patrick to Max is about 4.2....

so you call 8% not significant... but 4.2 % a substantial and significant set back for Patrick in the SP.


I am so confused... please enlighten me

 

[mcq]

People need to remember that performing even "only" a 3-quad LP is not easy. Last season, even Javier only did it once at Worlds, and even Hanyu did it "only" twice at GPF and NHK. 2-quad SP is not an easy feat either, but it looks more doable, Hanyu did it 3 out of 4 times and Boyang also did it 3-4 times if I am not wrong, while Javier has yet to do a clean 2-quad SP. Now for a 4-quad LP, I think even boyang only did it really clean once at 4CC, and that didn't even let him break 200 (in fact, he scored 191) since the GOE and PCS is not there for him. Therefore, I will not hold my breath for a 5-quad program to be performed without mistake, though I will not say that it is impossible to do.

The reason I am saying all this because there seems to be fear that people with high TES will beat a more all-around skater.
It is not happening, at least not yet. Look, now you just basically can't afford any mistake, not even top skaters with high BV like Javier or Yuzuru. With how packed the technical content of everybody is, one mistake means other people who perform cleaner will win (it happens to Yuzuru at worlds). And at the end of the day the more complete skater who skate the cleanest will still win. This competition is not really a good example because Patrick was not clean and he lose points on BV and Nathan's BV is too high. If Patrick performs without mistake and still lost to Nathan doing that kind of performance, I probably would complain too, but it is not what was happening here.

 

[Violet Bliss]

There is no need to complain about points and placements. An event like this simply gives us a look at the new programs and their potentials, as well as a glimpse of the skaters' approaches to and strategies for this season, maybe even a hint for the Olympics next season.

Any probable adjustments to the scoring system won't be in place before the Olympics so skaters have to do their planning based on the current system, which is open for everybody to know. Those who have a plan they are confident in will more likely succeed more than those reactive to every competition result and every opinion.

 

[da96103]

Now now boys and girls (old ladies and old men), don't work yourself up so early. It's only Finlandia for quadruple axel's sake. Skate America has not even arrived.

 

[Crossover]

Nathan's FS was a huge disappointment for me at first when I saw it live because I believed he can balance both his quad and artistry well in his program. Considering the lesson he learned from the latest injury, he would know his reckless fierceness could damage his health. On a second thought, I don't feel the fear that I felt yesterday, maybe because I know he didn't get injured at the event and sprung so quickly after the falls as if nothing ever would happen. Still while I think the program seriously lacks choreography and transition in comparison to his Golden West outing, the program has big potential to grow more. I was literally in shock when to see it live, so I might've missed many things, but he tried to pose some choreography in between his jumps. I still am against his 5 quad layout as he couldn't land them cleanly, but it is too obvious that he experimented the plan. I hope him and his team figure out what way would lead him success in senior and cause no damage to his body.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Maybe if Patrick would not botch SPs or 3As (which have been a basic requirement for men at the top for over two decades now) he would win. He should've have easily won this competition.

Uh, Chan landed both triple axels in his FS. It was actually Chen who had axel issues. Also the triple axel isn't the be-all-end-all element with the introduction of the quad, much to the relief of Chan and Lambiel.

And Nathan's final score of 256 is a pretty sizeable score to beat - one of the highest scores ever achieved at a preseason CS competition. Given skaters are still trying out new programs and layouts (like Chan's second-half quad) errors are bound to be made.

Nathan got his quads out there and Chan got his programs out there, and both did adequate jobs in doing so. That is the point of the challenger series for the top skaters, not to be perfect - which most skaters aren't this early in the season. See Hanyu at the recent AUtumn Classic - only scored 3 points more than Chen did here... not exactly "easily winning" either, by comparison.

You never know -- Mao and Anna should have "easily won" Finlandia as well... And I don't see you coming for them. :sarcasm:

 

[JustMe]

I wish the ISU would limit the number of quads per program: 1 in the short, 3 in free. That, or limit the number of the same kind of triple OR quad jumps per program to two overall (i.e. no more than 2 triple OR quads toeloops, so if you do a Quad toe + Triple toe, that's it; any other toe loop with more that 2 revolutions would be worth zero). :dev2:

 

[4everchan]

I wish the ISU would limit the number of quads per program: 1 in the short, 3 in free. That, or limit the number of the same kind of triple OR quad jumps per program to two overall (i.e. no more than 2 triple OR quads toeloops, so if you do a Quad toe + Triple toe, that's it; any other toe loop with more that 2 revolutions would be worth zero). :dev2:

so we would end up seeing lots of double jumps.. exciting :disapp:

 

[da96103]

I wish the ISU would limit the number of quads per program: 1 in the short, 3 in free. That, or limit the number of the same kind of triple OR quad jumps per program to two overall (i.e. no more than 2 triple OR quads toeloops, so if you do a Quad toe + Triple toe, that's it; any other toe loop with more that 2 revolutions would be worth zero). :dev2:

Let analyze this:
1. limit the number of quads per program: 1 in the short, 3 in free.

1.1 Short program: limit to 1 quad
So this would make the best SP layout before the 2015/2016 season. 4T/4S/4Lo/4F/4Lz + 3T, 3A, 3Lz.
Advantage to those who can only do one quad.
Disadvantage to those who can do at least two different quads. Theses skaters lose BV = BV of second highest quad minus BV of 3Lz

1.2 Long program: limit to 3 quad
The best LP layout would be Yuzuru's 2015/2016 LP or equivalent.
Advantage to those who can do at most 2 different quads
Disadvantage to those who can do at least 3 different quads.

2. limit the number of the same kind of triple OR quad jumps per program to two overall.
This would mean that the maximum number of quads plus triples is 8 jumps in a program. 6 different jumps plus 2 repeat.
Thus either 3 or 4 jumps must be double jumps.
The best layout would be 4Lz+2T, 4Lz, 4F+2T, 4F, 4S, 4T, 3A+1/2Lo+2F, 3Lo

This would take a bit of time to think out all the ramifications.
Anyone has any contribution?

 

[da96103]

so we would end up seeing lots of double jumps.. exciting :disapp:

We reached the same conclusion 3 or 4 jumps in the LP will have to be double jumps.

 

[4everchan]

Let analyze this:
1. limit the number of quads per program: 1 in the short, 3 in free.

1.1 Short program: limit to 1 quad
So this would make the best SP layout before the 2015/2016 season. 4T/4S/4Lo/4F/4Lz + 3T, 3A, 3Lz.
Advantage to those who can only do one quad.
Disadvantage to those who can do at least two different quads. Theses skaters lose BV = BV of second highest quad minus BV of 3Lz

1.2 Long program: limit to 3 quad
The best LP layout would be Yuzuru's 2015/2016 LP or equivalent.
Advantage to those who can do at most 2 different quads
Disadvantage to those who can do at least 3 different quads.

2. limit the number of the same kind of triple OR quad jumps per program to two overall.
This would mean that the maximum number of quads plus triples is 8 jumps in a program. 6 different jumps plus 2 repeat.
Thus either 3 or 4 jumps must be double jumps.
The best layout would be 4Lz+2T, 4Lz, 4F+2T, 4F, 4S, 4T, 3A+1/2Lo+2F, 3Lo

This would take a bit of time to think out all the ramifications.
Anyone has any contribution?

We reached the same conclusion 3 or 4 jumps in the LP will have to be double jumps.

try the bolded layout keeping 3 quads only.. even more doubles

 

[HanDomi]

I wish the ISU would limit the number of quads per program: 1 in the short, 3 in free. That, or limit the number of the same kind of triple OR quad jumps per program to two overall (i.e. no more than 2 triple OR quads toeloops, so if you do a Quad toe + Triple toe, that's it; any other toe loop with more that 2 revolutions would be worth zero). :dev2:

I was not having fun watching Nathan 5 quad program but limiting quads is not the way. Just give him 60 pcs and it will be solution of any kind of problem with it.
The number of quads in program is not the problem at all, it's the way he skated program. If he had done program between I would had no problem, but he was just setting up his jumps for 90 % of program. That was my problem. So just give it real pcs.

 

[da96103]

Just to add on:

For Nathan Chen who has 4 different quads, the LP would have at least 3 or 4 doubles.
For Yuzuru Hanyu who has 3 different quads, the LP would have at least 4 or 5 doubles.
For Javier Fernadez who has 2 different quads, the LP would have at least 5 or 6 doubles.

So the rule actually encourages more different quads in order to minimize the number of doubles.

 

[da96103]

try the bolded layout keeping 3 quads only.. even more doubles

Actually no, the quads will just turn into triples, the doubles remain the same.

4Lz+2T, 4Lz, 4F+2T, 3F, 3S, 3T, 3A+1/2Lo+2F, 3Lo

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

"Why not limit the number of quads in the SP and FS"

= Why not limit the ability for any skater other than the popular ones to win?

 

[Jaana]

I wish that the judges were really strict with triple axel UR´s and double-footing in GP and Worlds competitions.

 

[alia jackson]

Thank You. Honestly, I'm surprised to see this much criticism for this type of competition tbh. I mean, Finlandia? Lol. Most skaters are a mess doing these B competitions and usually compete here to try things out so they can go back and rework things.

And Nathan's final score of 256 is a pretty sizeable score to beat - one of the highest scores ever achieved at a preseason CS competition. Given skaters are still trying out new programs and layouts (like Chan's second-half quad) errors are bound to be made.

Nathan got his quads out there and Chan got his programs out there, and both did adequate jobs in doing so. That is the point of the challenger series for the top skaters, not to be perfect - which most skaters aren't this early in the season. See Hanyu at the recent AUtumn Classic - only scored 3 points more than Chen did here... not exactly "easily winning" either, by comparison.

I understand how you guys are feeling. Yuzuru also received much criticisms at AC, and one of the criticisms is as below. Imagine if this is said to their skaters or the skaters at this event :disapp:

Felt like a Donald Trump at the debate, skate. Did someone forget to practice?

 

[MaxSwagg]

you crack me up.

here you say that 54% versus 46 % isn't significant...

yet you say that Patrick was significantly behind with his botched SP...

let me use a calculator as I am not a scientist...

Patrick earned 84.59

Max 88.26

so the difference in percentage here, from Patrick to Max is about 4.2....

so you call 8% not significant... but 4.2 % a substantial and significant set back for Patrick in the SP.


I am so confused... please enlighten me

You two have just lost it. Lol So much so that you didn't even understand what I said. I mean I literally let out a little laugh.

 

[Sydney Rose]

I was not having fun watching Nathan 5 quad program but limiting quads is not the way. Just give him 60 pcs and it will be solution of any kind of problem with it.
The number of quads in program is not the problem at all, it's the way he skated program. If he had done program between I would had no problem, but he was just setting up his jumps for 90 % of program. That was my problem. So just give it real pcs.

If I had been judging, 60 pcs is what he would have gotten from me.

And I don't like his jumps either. Such an inelegant skater.

 

[JustMe]

I think limiting the number of quads allowed in programs would reduce the risk of injury, but who knows, I'm not an expert.