2017 Four Continents Men FS

[yuki]

Do you ever ask why Javi and Hanyu receive the huge PCS scores they get?

Yes.

It's not as if Nathan has no aesthetic skills in competition! That's seems to be what you'd like to believe.

PCS are not supposed to reward (only) aesthetic quality, but also transitions, good program composition, interpretation of the music and other things that Nathan's FS is lacking in at the moment.

Don't you realize that PCS scores are always manipulated and are always based on technical ability and reputation, as much as on actual performance. Why are you questioning the PCS when it's a skater beating your fave who receives inflated PCS.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

Yuzu's PCS are inflated too. No one is vocal about the discrepancies in PCS that exist across the board. The whining and complaining apparently happens only when big bad U.S. finally has a men's skater landing quads consistently and beating the rest of the top Quad Kings at the Game of Quads.

Is this one of those alternative facts I keep hearing about? This subject has been endlessly discussed in every major competition thread.

 

[da96103]

I have just regain my composure after this great event.

My family actually stopped and watch together the live stream on TV with me when they saw there are Malaysians skater participated. Suddenly they are very into it when Julian skate and cheers when he landed his jumps and nooooo when he fell on the 3A. But despite the flaws once again love how he sell his program. It felt a bit short but what I love about Julian is his abundance of energy in selling whatever he is having. 15th is ok considering the flaw and his technical content for both program. Too bad for Kai but young skater from Malaysia participating in 4CC is considered a feat!

That was my fault. Could not catch enough stray cats in Kuala Lumpur to sacrifice to the Rink Ice Monster for Julian to have a clean run.

 

[frida80]

I see you guys are still at it. I did say that this thread would go nuts if Nathan had the misfortune of beating Yuzuru. Sigh... It was so civil in the SP thread.

 

[radcon]

Men's Scores by Each Judges

Short

Pl.	Name	Nat.	Official Score	Jud.	TPE	CHN	NZL	USA	MEX	JPN	CAN	AUS	KOR
1	Nathan CHEN	USA	103.12	TSS	109.50	98.40	105.30	103.30	106.50	104.00	100.55	95.65	104.25
2	Shoma UNO	JPN	100.28	TSS	98.55	96.35	101.75	99.30	96.10	103.25	100.55	99.35	107.95
3	Yuzuru HANYU	JPN	97.04	TSS	98.25	95.05	99.75	96.00	97.25	96.95	93.75	97.25	97.75
4	Boyang JIN	CHN	91.33	TSS	88.93	96.03	92.58	91.68	93.83	88.68	91.18	83.13	93.13
5	Patrick CHAN	CAN	88.46	TSS	90.88	87.88	88.38	87.63	86.88	87.88	89.13	86.93	90.63
6	Han YAN	CHN	84.08	TSS	80.63	84.83	83.53	83.83	88.23	80.13	87.33	78.48	86.78

Free

Pl.	Name	Nat.	Official Score	Jud.	AUS	USA	CHN	MEX	NZL	CAN	TPE	KOR	JPN
1	Yuzuru HANYU	JPN	206.67	TSS	197.90	201.00	204.10	197.90	209.60	208.60	212.30	211.60	213.50
2	Nathan CHEN	USA	204.34	TSS	198.88	208.18	199.28	202.48	211.68	198.48	210.38	205.68	203.18
3	Shoma UNO	JPN	187.77	TSS	175.13	185.83	187.33	189.43	189.33	189.33	186.13	191.33	192.53
4	Patrick CHAN	CAN	179.52	TSS	172.83	177.23	180.93	177.63	178.83	186.23	175.73	184.93	178.63
5	Boyang JIN	CHN	176.18	TSS	167.88	178.18	185.88	175.98	181.38	174.68	174.68	176.38	165.48
6	Jason BROWN	USA	165.08	TSS	159.54	170.34	161.74	152.54	170.94	171.44	160.84	163.14	168.34

 

[ranran]

That was my fault. Could not catch enough stray cats in Kuala Lumpur to sacrifice to the Rink Ice Monster for Julian to have a clean run.

I almost can't forgive you with the way how awful that fall looks but considering you are willing to sacrifice your perfect 2000 posts on me in order to confess, I have to overlook and considered it a lucky break for those stray cats who managed to get away from you.

 

[da96103]

Short

Pl.	Name	Nat.	Official Score	Jud.	TPE	CHN	NZL	USA	MEX	JPN	CAN	AUS	KOR
1	Nathan CHEN	USA	103.12	TSS	109.50	98.40	105.30	103.30	106.50	104.00	100.55	95.65	104.25
2	Shoma UNO	JPN	100.28	TSS	98.55	96.35	101.75	99.30	96.10	103.25	100.55	99.35	107.95
3	Yuzuru HANYU	JPN	97.04	TSS	98.25	95.05	99.75	96.00	97.25	96.95	93.75	97.25	97.75
4	Boyang JIN	CHN	91.33	TSS	88.93	96.03	92.58	91.68	93.83	88.68	91.18	83.13	93.13
5	Patrick CHAN	CAN	88.46	TSS	90.88	87.88	88.38	87.63	86.88	87.88	89.13	86.93	90.63
6	Han YAN	CHN	84.08	TSS	80.63	84.83	83.53	83.83	88.23	80.13	87.33	78.48	86.78

Free

Pl.	Name	Nat.	Official Score	Jud.	AUS	USA	CHN	MEX	NZL	CAN	TPE	KOR	JPN
1	Yuzuru HANYU	JPN	206.67	TSS	197.90	201.00	204.10	197.90	209.60	208.60	212.30	211.60	213.50
2	Nathan CHEN	USA	204.34	TSS	198.88	208.18	199.28	202.48	211.68	198.48	210.38	205.68	203.18
3	Shoma UNO	JPN	187.77	TSS	175.13	185.83	187.33	189.43	189.33	189.33	186.13	191.33	192.53
4	Patrick CHAN	CAN	179.52	TSS	172.83	177.23	180.93	177.63	178.83	186.23	175.73	184.93	178.63
5	Boyang JIN	CHN	176.18	TSS	167.88	178.18	185.88	175.98	181.38	174.68	174.68	176.38	165.48
6	Jason BROWN	USA	165.08	TSS	159.54	170.34	161.74	152.54	170.94	171.44	160.84	163.14	168.34

Do you see any pattern? Any suspicious activity? Any of these judges should be put into the coliseum and get torn by lions?

 

[Art&Sport]

So when was the last time the American anthem was played at a major international event for Mens or Ladies? Without Nathan, is there a realistic Worlds and Olympic gold medal contender from the US?

Ice Dance, a strong discipline in the US, just doesn't get enough interest and attention. Also, as good as D/W was, they were not completely dominating because of V/M. The best known American skater in the last decade is Johnny weir and it's not because of his skating. He gets personal attention but didn't do that much for figure skating.

Johnny Weir had a great impact on figure skating. Just ask Yuzuru Hanyu! Johnny influenced and inspired his own peers as well as skaters who came up after him in the way that he skated, and in terms of his creativity with costumes, which influenced costume styling in all disciplines. Neither U.S. fed, nor the ISU made any efforts at all to promote or to try and advance the sport by taking advantage of Johnny's Weir's huge fan base and popularity in countries around the world, particularly Russia and Japan. Johnny has succeeded after his competitive career on the strengths of his own talents, and from the exposure he received during the 2010 Olympics, despite the judges refusing to score him fairly.

Of course V/M were rivals to D/W. But let me remind you that V/M never won GPF until last year, whereas D/W are five-time GPF champions. D/W also won every competition they entered the last two years of their career. Plus they won practically everything post 2010 Olympics, aside from 2012 when they won silver at 4CCs and Worlds. If you don't call that dominating, I wonder what your definition of "dominate" is? Even in 2012, it's debatable that D/W lost Worlds to V/M. It was D/W who had the better and more memorable FD in 2012. I think V/M were slightly better than D/W in 2011, but it was D/W who prevailed. The fact of the matter is that both teams were highly and equally competitive, and they pushed each other. It's also a fact that D/W kept improving to the point where they dominated V/M and ice dance over the last two years of their competitive career. I know that V/M fans hate to concede that fact, and prefer to keep talking about conspiracies and unfair judging.

As far as the rest of what you are saying, I'm not sure what kind of point you are trying to make. I'm acknowledging that the U.S. has not won any championships in singles and pairs for a long time. For the men only since 2010, and there has never been a strong championship winning tradition in pairs although U.S. pairs have won World and Olympic medals and have contended, just not recently. There have only been two U.S. pairs teams who won gold at Worlds, the Kennedys in 1950, and Babilonia/Gardner in 1979.

The landscape has definitely changed over the years, but that doesn't mean U.S. skaters have not contended or had any influence at all in singles. Yes, the U.S. has not been strong in pairs in terms of contending for medals for a long time. What point are you trying to make?

 

[xeyra]

I love watching these rundowns of scores. The Korean judge loved Shoma's short, the Canadian judge was more generous to Yuzuru in his FS compared to his SP, the JPN and USA judges did their national duty with their FS scores for Nathan and Yuzuru. And the Taipei judge was on some sort of happy crack overall.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Short

Pl.	Name	Nat.	Official Score	Jud.	TPE	CHN	NZL	USA	MEX	JPN	CAN	AUS	KOR
1	Nathan CHEN	USA	103.12	TSS	109.50	98.40	105.30	103.30	106.50	104.00	100.55	95.65	104.25
2	Shoma UNO	JPN	100.28	TSS	98.55	96.35	101.75	99.30	96.10	103.25	100.55	99.35	107.95
3	Yuzuru HANYU	JPN	97.04	TSS	98.25	95.05	99.75	96.00	97.25	96.95	93.75	97.25	97.75
4	Boyang JIN	CHN	91.33	TSS	88.93	96.03	92.58	91.68	93.83	88.68	91.18	83.13	93.13
5	Patrick CHAN	CAN	88.46	TSS	90.88	87.88	88.38	87.63	86.88	87.88	89.13	86.93	90.63
6	Han YAN	CHN	84.08	TSS	80.63	84.83	83.53	83.83	88.23	80.13	87.33	78.48	86.78

Free

Pl.	Name	Nat.	Official Score	Jud.	AUS	USA	CHN	MEX	NZL	CAN	TPE	KOR	JPN
1	Yuzuru HANYU	JPN	206.67	TSS	197.90	201.00	204.10	197.90	209.60	208.60	212.30	211.60	213.50
2	Nathan CHEN	USA	204.34	TSS	198.88	208.18	199.28	202.48	211.68	198.48	210.38	205.68	203.18
3	Shoma UNO	JPN	187.77	TSS	175.13	185.83	187.33	189.43	189.33	189.33	186.13	191.33	192.53
4	Patrick CHAN	CAN	179.52	TSS	172.83	177.23	180.93	177.63	178.83	186.23	175.73	184.93	178.63
5	Boyang JIN	CHN	176.18	TSS	167.88	178.18	185.88	175.98	181.38	174.68	174.68	176.38	165.48
6	Jason BROWN	USA	165.08	TSS	159.54	170.34	161.74	152.54	170.94	171.44	160.84	163.14	168.34

Thank you very much for doing this, must have been a lot of work!

Nathan winning the LP over Yuzu by 7 points for the American judge we can argue that the Japanese judge went to far into the other direction, but at least there's some sense to those numbers. But man, that American judge went in.

 

[NoNameFace]

okay, finished my cooking an now I can post my thoughts. Watched live 2 last groups, but did not want to distract myself with the GS and wanted to truly watch all skaters. And this will be quite a long post, like always - apologize in advance for my word vomit!

About top 3 - I think that those 3 skaters, looking at the field there, are the most 'balanced' (more or less) between current technical abilities, presentation/expression and delivering both of those at the same time, so no surprise for me to be honest about results and placements. Nathan had his 'cushion' after SP and delivered enough, Yuzuru was let down by his 4S combo twice, so was Shoma with his 3A in FS. And yes - I also consider Nathan as more of technician/an 'executor' of his stuff on a first place than sophisticated, seasoned performer right now, but give him time, for God's sake, he's just 17 with quite an injury behind him just a season ago, but more on him below.

Nathan - this is a true spirit of a competitor, I'm honestly stunned about his poise and determination not only for competing, but for pushing himself and the sport forward, as a result. To have this hunger and ambition after his injury, be back so relatively quickly and produce stuff like today - this requires something even more than dedication I think. It's some kind of unconditional devotion, faith and passion all put into aims. Today's FS seemed a bit choppy, less profound and impactful that GPF and Nationals for me - it was more of an skate than performance this time, but nonetheless he kept his cool together once again and delivered enough to win. His coolness, collection and confidence going into all those jumps, his sureness in execution are quite remarkable and admiration worthy for me. To present such composed, mature approach, mixing it with a fierce competitor spirit at such young age is absolutely unique. I salute him and his team, this is truly inspirational to witness, such power and control over everything. And give him just one thing - time to blossom as a performer, time to develop and form his skating into more complex item. There is already a great sense of musicality (as in all US men for me, which is amazing) and his ballet training is put into use regarding his posture, stance, carriage, extensions. Just health and time is required. And I just adore that 'daring' look in his eyes, especially at the beginning of the program.

Yuzuru - one of the performances which really moved me today. And it was not about what he executed, but how he performed. A rare case for me when I am moved in some sorts regardless of errors. For me, he put his best effort out there and same error on 4S combo as in SP for sure will be adressed. But there was a spirit and a feel of majesty in that performance - so much musicality not only in his skating in general, but with handling the music, elements executed, lovely liquid quaity of transitions, moving interpretation - in my opinion it was obvious how much this program means to him. There was power and attack, but also a delicacy, sensibility and impressionist-like flow of this performance,not mentioning amazing attention to detail. He's chasing perfection, want to give his best as an athlete, a competitor, but seeing him performed like today and witnessing this smile, joy from scores, he keeps on giving much more than competitive thrill I feel. His skating feels so complex, so well-rounded, apart from all these disputes over layouts, scoring etc. My biggest appreciation for his performance today, I know there is silver, not the gold he desired, but I see a lot to phrase about this outing, have no doubt he will keep his hard work and improvement going even harder.

Shoma, that was a heartbreak for me, after that fall on first 3A. As this is my favourite FS in Men this season, I feel twice engaged and concerned than usual. But apart from those fatal 3As today, it was really an exquisite performance - he learned A LOT about keeping the performance spirit going regardless of mishaps, he's becoming more and more of conscious and professional performer aside of being exceptional skater himself. Still amazed me by his ability to transform himself into this myserious drama performer, so into that music, the way he expresses high/lows, lyrical/dramatic parts of the music is marvelous, that musicality in his movement gets me every time, but with this program he takes it on another level. There is a bronze, but he should be proud in my opinion, there is a lot to cherish: that fantastic SP which was a bit of a trouble for the whole season, all those quads pulled off, two great performances presented.

While those 3 performances really got into my mind and imagination, saluting all 3 skaters for pushing and competing so hard, I was able to truly enjoy from my heart few other skaters/performances, maybe not as packed technically/successful to take the podium place: Patrick, Misha, Grant and Jason. A bit of general thought, looking at this particular competition, is that for me competitive factor in figure skating is definitely not only about jumps difficulty/ability to execute them. Yes - I agree that regarding medals, high scores it is essential to have quite an arsenal and FS is heavy influenced or 'hyped' by all of that, but is is not defined nor limited by it. Thank God there is no such thing like mandatory requirement to have certain amount of quads to be able to compete at all or 'quad qualification round' before actual competition...There is so much to savour outside of jumps and it pains me that non-jumping technical elements are so underestimated and overlooked. I try to keep my 'FS prism' quite open and diverse, it's a bit like have 'Pinterest board' at every competition for me: I collect pieces, bits I love/I'm impressed about from various skaters and then get a big, complex picture of everything I loved which allows me to appreciate a lot more than jumps, especially in singles. Hence my joy taken from todays programs aforementioned skaters.

Patrick - still masterful control and quality over his skating and musicality/interpretation. It was not a perfect program executed, but boy, that first combo was a gem, deserving straight +3 GOE for me, hands down . It's that unique, quiet, nostalgic way he connects with the music and I just love his lyric take on interpretation and making his body a sensible instrument while performing such pieces like 'Journey'. For me, there's always that sense of maturity, elevation and performer confidence about Patrick's skating which can't be make instantly, but requires a carefully nutured talent and skill.

Misha - I really grown to adore his approach and take on figure skating and now I just salute him for playing on his strenghts, performing so cohesive and complex, regarding not only skating itself, but appearance, carriage, style of movement. I love his originality and uniqueness as a skater, as he's showing lots of personality in every program. This 'Nutcracker' FS suits him to the T, highlighting his ballet background, drama flare and performance abilities. I'll never get tired of a classic warhorse with such classy, stylish choreography and 'regal' feel of interpretation Misha has showed.

Grant - just love that man, and there's definitely a mature, sophisticated man performing. Lovely glide and flow, perfect sense of musicality in that FS, great expression of drama and majesty of that piece of music. Fangirling as always over his spins and overall feel, atmospere created by Grant. On more general note - there is something special in all US men for me, they all seems to have a great sense of musicality/musical interpretation and such 'stylish' way of performing: Adam, Joshua, Jeremy, Sean, Grant, Jason, Max, Nathan, Ross to name only a few...And while watching FS I wished so badly that there would be all those skaters performing, not only Nathan, Jason and Grant.

And Jason - he lived up that music to the motion and really transferred the emotion, feeling onto myself. Aside of so much polish and sophistication in quality of his skating, edge work, speed, extension, he really can use all of this to carry the interpretation and performance to superb level. He may not have the most ambitious layout, big tricks and is not considered as 'an attractive competitor' for those valuing jumps, but for me his biggest value or even advantage is that he seems fully aware of what he can't do and fully confident over his best qualities and assets. That kind of consciousness over his skating is truly amazing for me and makes me appreciate him even more as a competitor. It requires a lot of confidence and maturity to present/compete/arry himself like Jason does and not many top skaters have it. His lyrical, sensible and artistic take on music, choreography has become his trademark signature and the way he performs - so animated, emotionally engaged, mixing power with softness - makes him really special for me.

 

[Barb]

I love watching these rundowns of scores. The Korean judge loved Shoma's short, the Canadian judge was more generous to Yuzuru in his FS compared to his SP, the JPN and USA judges did their national duty with their FS scores for Nathan and Yuzuru. And the Taipei judge was on some sort of happy crack overall.

And wow, Yuzu had 15 points of difference from the lowest judge to the highest one, in the FP

 

[liv]

Love how the Canadian judge went all full out love on Yuzu in his lp. With a 10 pt spread between them.
And the Aussie judge lowballed everyone.

 

[aa456]

Yuzuru hasn't dropped the 4T for the 4S because of more points - it's very likely related to his injury. End of last season he had a Lisfranc fracture in his left foot, which was mostly caused by training the 4T. The injury was bad enough to nearly threaten to end his career (I think he said somewhere that going into WC2016 - or after the LP there - he thought it would be his last competition?). Even after it was clear he could continue to skate, there were talks about skipping this season. He basically had to relearn his jumps from singles, and a lot of program choreo had to be adjusted. Given that the 4T caused the injury, even if it is healed now, I'd think they're going back on the 4T to avoid this happening again. Hence, the 4S3T. Even if it's frustrating, I think he should very much stick to that. I'd rather have him do 2Ss than not skate at all.

(I'm not trying to lecture someone or anything, before that's the next remark thrown because I'm a Yuzu fan. I just wanted to explain what I think is the reasoning behind his layout)

I had no idea his injury last year was that serious. Thanks for the explanation!

 

[Art&Sport]

Here's Nathan's 2017 4CCs exhibition: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbS3XAcBTdk great command over the ice

Nathan's 2017 U.S. Nationals exhibition: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IWrJOhUVl0 (cute the way he mimes going into a jump but doesn't jump -- a reference to what happened at 2016 Nationals)

Nathan 2015 JGP Colorado Springs sp: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUcjfgat794 you don't have to like his style, but you can't say he doesn't have artistry even at age 15

Nathan 2015 JGP Colorado Springs fp: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjBadThflQc Commentator: "One of the greatest junior performances in history"

Nathan 2016 U.S. Nationals sp: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBjsF4sN0ZQ (interesting to see his development of this sp, plus the childhood photos of him)

Nathan 2016 U.S. Nationals fp: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Csa8fKd7e8o 4-quad program -- again it's interesting to see his development from 2015 & 2016 to 2017

Nathan 2017 U.S. Nationals sp: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEDyIIpwslQ
Nathan 2017 U.S. Nats fp: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grzbS6kNGq4

 

[andromache]

From a psychological perspective, I think Yuzuru losing here to Nathan is better for Yuzuru going into Worlds. For the past two years, he has gone into Worlds as the favorite, and lost. Going in as the second favorite, with something to prove and to fight for (Olympics 2014?) might prove more successful for him psychologically.

As much as I love both Nathan and Yuzu, I'm kind of actually hoping Javier pulls out another win, though with Shoma as well, I have no idea if he will even podium.

 

[Tolstoj]

As much as i like Jason's spins, i've to say that TES is a joke.

79 with no quads, a single axel, a double sal and a hand down on the triple loop?

The bv of that FS is the lowest of the top 12.
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/fc2017/fc2017_Men_FS_Scores.pdf

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

That's the irony. He could not achieved a 4-quad with the planned content, but being forced with a failed 4S, he managed with all the unplanned (or at least plan B) stuff.

I thought he had planned 4 quads though in his planned content? 4L, two 4S and 4T.

 

[gsyzf]

Why won't they when they finally have a genuine Worlds and Olympic gold contender since Kwan?

At least Nathan is hype worthy and may be the reviver of figure skating in the US.

I was just saying too much hype adds more pressure. He is certainly worth the hype.

 

[HanDomi]

I thought he had planned 4 quads though in his planned content? 4L, two 4S and 4T.

he had, but since he failed 2nd salchow he added additional quad toe at the end and that was first time he landed 4 quads

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Because I just explained in this thread he does that because of the potential of having his Lisfranc fracture flaring up again (which was caused be hiy 4T).

Then why incorporate a second 4T as his backup if it potentially hurts him --or even have one at all (like Kim avoiding the 3L)? Clearly he feels that it's not particularly compromising if he's including one in the first place and opting to switch a 3Z to a 4T that could possibly aggravate the fracture.

Also, this thread has tons of posts within minutes and, most surprisingly, we don't read every one of yours, just an FYI.