2017 Four Continents Men SP

[4everchan]

link still needs work vb

 

[4everchan]

I would like to know which positive bullets would Jin get on these two examples.... Aside from great air time on the 4lutz... i don't see many.... yet, despite a muscled 3t on the first example and a really struggling survival on the 3t in the second example, Jin still manages to get positive GOE.

Underscored? I don't think so.

YMMV

 

[Violet Bliss]

link still needs work vb

I know. But I just can't get the second link to work. At first it kept linking to the first video so I thought I had the YT page open and made the wrong link. When I realized it was the C&P function going berserk on me, so I made the timed video link manually. However, it would only start from the beginning no matter how many times I tried. It's first time I have this problem. Erh, ohmmmmm.........

eta Why don't you look at my text by quote and see if you can fix it?

 

[4everchan]

I know. But I just can't get the second link to work. At first it kept linking to the first video so I thought I had the YT page open and made the wrong link. When I realized it was the C&P function going berserk on me, so I made the timed video link manually. However, it would only start from the beginning no matter how many times I tried. It's first time I have this problem. Erh, ohmmmmm.........

eta Why don't you look at my text by quote and see if you can fix it?

copy and paste this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yn3ncA4Hji8&t=43s

 

[4everchan]

There is clean and then there is clean. Look at his 4Lz3T at 4CC 2016 and at COC this season. Don't you think judges were right to give him higher GOE (1.86) last year than this (0.86)? He was at his best technically at 4CC last year, all his jumps flawless and easy, his spins faster than this season's COC, etc. You can compare element by element. His best SP so far this season just wasn't technically up to par to last season's best. He even lost a level for a spin. He was lucky to have his TES just 1.39 lower while improving his PCS by .89.

I just don't see his current season's COC SP scores being lowballed for the reason you have suggested. His scores simply reflect the performances, at least relatively.

Of course, we most likely haven't seen his best this season yet. So we are just comparing the two performances you have chosen to compare as evidence of judges' biased judging, except there isn't such bias in this case.

eta. My copy & paste gets stuck with the first video. I haven't been able to get the manual timing right yet. So watch the COC video at at around 0:43 until I get it right.

eta Why don't you look at my text by quote and see if you can fix it?

this one worked out VB

 

[Violet Bliss]

copy and paste this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yn3ncA4Hji8&t=43s

I had the same url but it would not be timed no matter what. Something wrong with my keyboard function? Maybe I'll reboot and try again. Anyway, people should have no problem seeing the jump combo with your link.

eta. I'm back. Rebooted and now the link is fixed. Nothing to it.

etaa. Technical comparison aside, SpiderBoyang is really very entertaining and I look forward to his 4CC performance. Will he get a program as good as this one for the Olympics? Perhaps he will keep it for the next season.

 

[gsyzf]

There is clean and then there is clean. Look at his 4Lz3T at 4CC 2016 and at COC this season. Don't you think judges were right to give him higher GOE (1.86) last year than this (0.86)? He was at his best technically at 4CC last year, all his jumps flawless and easy, his spins faster than this season's COC, etc. You can compare element by element. His best SP so far this season just wasn't technically up to par to last season's best. He even lost a level for a spin. He was lucky to have his TES just 1.39 lower while improving his PCS by .89.

I just don't see his current season's COC SP scores being lowballed for the reason you have suggested. His scores simply reflect the performances, at least relatively.

Of course, we most likely haven't seen his best this season yet. So we are just comparing the two performances you have chosen to compare as evidence of judges' biased judging, except there isn't such bias in this case.

eta. Link fixed.

Both jumps are a bit eeked out. If he is more consistent, his score would be higher and he would be rewarded for more than what he deserves relative to his rivals (like getting a bonus). If he and his rivals receive similar bonus for consistency or reputation, then the placement will still remain fair. If one person receives the bonus and another doesn't, then there will be quite a gap between their scores. Most people need to earn the bonus through consistency.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Both jumps are a bit eeked out. If he is more consistent, his score would be higher and he would be rewarded for more than what he deserves relative to his rivals (like getting a bonus). If he and his rivals receive similar bonus for consistency or reputation, then the placement will still remain fair. If one person receives the bonus and another doesn't, then there will be quite a gap between their scores. Most people need to earn the bonus through consistency.

I say he received a WOW bonus with his 4Lz3T, especially last year. Now that's a bonus nobody has ever received though many have received forgiveness "bonus" for solo quads without receding steps.

eta. I think the WOW bonus was deserved for the degree of difficulty of the Lutz combo not adequately awarded in BV. In fact, I think quad-triple combos of all kinds are under valued in BV under the COP.

 

[4everchan]

consistency and WOW value are not bullet points.

As a matter of fact, if I am more understanding towards WOW value, as I don't have a huge issue with rewarding a spectacular element, consistency irks me if it really part of judging.

gsyhf, you keep talking about consistency... none of the big 3 men have been consistent yet they score the highest GPF... how do you explain that?

 

[Mango]

21 pages! :eeking:

I am beginning to wonder if the pressure is going to get to these guys and they'll be popping jumps/barely saving landings/splatting in the SP. Chen and Hanyu in particular have a lot of pressure on them.

I am also beginning to worry about injuries. An injury at 4CC may mean no Worlds. With all these quads I'm thinking there will be a few bruises at least.

Does anyone know what the ice is like in the rink? Are we going to see some puddles like in TD Garden or AccorHotels Arena (TdF venue)?? Was it good during South Korean Nationals?

That brings me to: Do the skaters and coaches who have been to this rink have an advantage over those who are coming here for the first time? Like Brian Orser could've mentioned a few things to his students after seeing the place with Jun Hwan Cha. How much of that is going to play into the 4CC results? So many variables...

 

[Violet Bliss]

consistency and WOW value are not bullet points.

Tips are not listed in the menu either but are meant as appreciation for a job well done. Yeah, I don't mind WOW bonus for a spectacular show off either. Any "bonus" for anything not in the performance being judged, well, I would have an issue with it.

 

[4everchan]

Tips are not listed in the menu either but are meant as appreciation for a job well done. Yeah, I don't mind WOW bonus for a spectacular show off either. Any "bonus" for anything not in the performance being judged, well, I would have an issue with it.

tips vary depending on the places... sometimes it's included in the price ... sometimes you just round up... sometimes you just don't tip at all...

so we agree here.... as consistency is not judging a performance as it is... it's judging the skater based on past performances. I think that's very stupid. If a swimmer has an off day, well he will be out of the pool... Nothing will save him. Why would GOE and PCS remain high if a skater doesn't do his job?

I sincerely don't know how Boyang will do this year. He was better last year. Sophomore rut. It's tough to live with a bronze medal around the neck and the expectations of a whole country, especially when at WC you were the only skater with an exotic quad... and then suddenly, Shoma comes up with his, Yuzu brings his 4loop to competition and Nathan Chen says " i can do it all, watch me" ... so what was unique about Boyang last year in terms of content, is no longer there.

I understand why it could be more difficult for him this year. I think we have been around the topic.

I am interested in Han Yan. I always loved his skating. So smooth.... how do you think he will do at 4CC? He is the defending bronze medalist after all....

 

[NoNameFace]

I see we're going strong here...:cool14:

meanwhile - shoutout to European guys, hope you'll enjoy watching this competition if possible: Javier, Alexei, Daniel, Deniss, Jorik, Ivan, Mikhail, Maxim, Moris, Michal!

 

[Olympic]

I find it ironic that Nathan's SP is stronger artistically than his LP, but he could be outscored by Yuzu, Patrick and Shoma, whereas he won the LP at the GPF and the LP is where he makes up ground.

 

[HanDomi]

ok, Patrick Chan is back on the podium in my prediction

 

[s_parks]

We're already at 22... is this a record for pre-competition page count?

 

[HanDomi]

We're already at 22... is this a record for pre-competition page count?

The most awaited competition ever

 

[gsyzf]

consistency and WOW value are not bullet points.

As a matter of fact, if I am more understanding towards WOW value, as I don't have a huge issue with rewarding a spectacular element, consistency irks me if it really part of judging.

gsyhf, you keep talking about consistency... none of the big 3 men have been consistent yet they score the highest GPF... how do you explain that?

The big 3 have more reputation than the others due to their titles. So judges are a bit more generous to them than others even when they don't deliver. (It's probably not fair to other competitors.) But the more often they deliver, the more often they deserve their scores. Only Hanyu medaled in GPF. He still made fewer mistakes than others (not more than Chen and Uno). Neither Fernandez and Chan medaled at GPF.

I'm ok with consistency getting some bonus because it's not easy to give a good performance on a consistent basis and it requires hard work to achieve consistency. There is a trade-off between difficulty and consistency. It's hard to be consistent when you attempt difficult tech. When two skaters attempt similar difficulty and give similar quality, I will give the higher score to the more consistent skater.

WOW factor is what makes a skater stands out from the rest. If you can do something nobody else can do, you stand out a lot. If you do things everyone does, then you don't stand out from the rest. I see WOW factor as a skater's competitive advantage. Once you lose the wow factor, you will likely lose the competition. I think a skater needs to have at least one thing that WOWs the audience and judges in order to win. (Superior consistency is a WOW factor too.)

 

[4everchan]

The big 3 have more reputation than the others due to their titles. So judges are a bit more generous to them than others even when they don't deliver. (It's probably not fair to other competitors.) But the more often they deliver, the more often they deserve their scores. Only Hanyu medaled in GPF. He still made fewer mistakes than others (not more than Chen and Uno). Neither Fernandez and Chan medaled at GPF.

I'm ok with consistency getting some bonus because it's not easy to give a good performance on a consistent basis and it requires hard work to achieve consistency. There is a trade-off between difficulty and consistency. It's hard to be consistent when you attempt difficult tech. When two skaters attempt similar difficulty and give similar quality, I will give the higher score to the more consistent skater.

WOW factor is what makes a skater stands out from the rest. If you can do something nobody else can do, you stand out a lot. If you do things everyone does, then you don't stand out from the rest. I see WOW factor as a skater's competitive advantage. Once you lose the wow factor, you will likely lose the competition. I think a skater needs to have at least one thing that WOWs the audience and judges in order to win. (Superior consistency is a WOW factor too.)

well, now we know, after a couple conversation that we completely disagree about how judging should occur so the last couple pages have proven that.
Let's agree to disagree from now on.

I value what's happening in front of me, whether or not it's by a consistent skater or not. Otherwise, Denis Ten would never have medaled and that would have made me sad....

Or maybe, being consistent just for the big events brings a bonus LOL

 

[Mrs. P]

Men's practice starts 10:50 local time tomorrow (Tuesday, Feb. 14) and skaters are starting to arrive/have arrived, so i hope we'll see some reports soon.

Five practice groups lasts until 14:30 local time: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C4UMSiuUMAMvOMP.jpg:large

Also I started a practice/live reports thread if you want to follow the action there!
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?62840-2017-Four-Continents-live-practice-reports