2017 Worlds Spots

[alebi]

But what about countries where figure skating is popular but that are still not producing top skaters right now (many European countries)? If you give more spots for USA, Japan, Russia they will be away from these countries and then there would be even less opportunities for new star skaters to rise from these countries.

I never said USA, Japan or Russian can send 10 thousands skaters
I said:
1) put a limit to 3 skaters for every country, independently from what the skaters did the previous Worlds. So, for example, USA will still have 3 male spots for next championships, but no more than 3;
2) decide a technical minimum every skater must accomplish if they want to participate; so if an Argentinian men get the minimum he's free to compete. If more than 3 USA/Russian skaters get the minimum you have Nationals where you select the team (or whatever the Federations choose to use). Always considering that every skaters/pairs you send should have got the minimum (but I don't think it's a problem in USA/Russia/Japan etc..);
3) you don't reach the (let's say) 30 skaters qualified for short? Then look at the world standings and invite the best skaters left (always bearing in mind point 1 and 2).

The only problem, at this point, is: which world standing you should consider? Make an average of the seasonal 3 best results for skaters and then do a rankings. Or consider the result the skaters got in the last (2? 3?) years?


This is the only way you can follow to guarantee a high competition (best countries will always send the maximum number) and a large participation (every skater who get the minimum can compete, even if they are from Jupiter or Mars )

 

[alebi]

I meant that as he got the minimum tes he qualified. What term or verb would you use to describe that? As I am not native English speaker I chose the word to qualify to described the matter.

I was pointing out a slightly injustice. You can say "the Argentinian was qualified because he got the minimum". But every country has ALWAYS one spot, if their skater get the minimum (and we all know that there are competitions made ON PURPOSE to get requirements).
For other country you don't qualify ONLY because your skater get the minimum, but also considering how many places you get in the previous competition. And that is the case for every SECOND skater belonging to countries which have a decent care about this sport. The second Italian had every minimums, so he should have qualified like the Argentinian, but he couldn't because he was the second one. This system facilitates the only Argentinian, the only Armenian, the only South African, the only "what you want to insert" and not the second Italian, Kazakistan, French and so on...
What's the consequence? We see so many Russian and American skaters try to represent another country, just because it's easier for them to qualify for a non habitual country which, maybe, doesn't give a :curse:about figure skating and will never give. As I said before, with less interest from Russia, USA and Japan this sport is destined to die. These are the countries that will guarantee money, audience and everything else, not a bunch of casual countries from all around the world. I don't want to sound harsh, but that's the reality.

 

[dorispulaski]

No. It isn't.

Look at the effect YuNa had on Korea. Skating is now very popular there. Denis Ten's success has been important for skating in Kazakhstan.

Look at what Bin Yao did to develop pairs in China.

Meanwhile, in the days when there were 2 Germany's, both had amazing teams. Not so much now.

Great Britain used to have depth in Men's and Dance and some pretty good ladies. Not so much now.

Skating used to be hot in the US. Not so much now.

Popularity of the sport rises and falls at different times in different countries. It is a good thing when new countries come into the sport, and an even better thing when they produce a top level skater.

That is how the sport might grow.

 

[alebi]

No. It isn't.

Look at the effect YuNa had on Korea. Skating is now very popular there. Denis Ten's success has been important for skating in Kazakhstan.

Look at what Bin Yao did to develop pairs in China.

Meanwhile, in the days when there were 2 Germany's, both had amazing teams. Not so much now.

Great Britain used to have depth in Men's and Dance and some pretty good ladies. Not so much now.

Skating used to be hot in the US. Not so much now.

Popularity of the sport rises and falls at different times in different countries. It is a good thing when new countries come into the sport, and an even better thing when they produce a top level skater.

That is how the sport might grow.

Sorry, but you didn't get my point. Obviously if your country is so lucky to have a one in a million phenomenon, you can create a movement around him/her and create a follow/school/interest and so on... We had the same effect thanks to Kostner (even if there was already a decent dance school in Italy, even before Fusar Poli/Margaglio). But your phenomenon is destined to emerge with any spots system, because they have the numbers to compete on a high level (and most of the time thanks to Russian/American/Canadian coaches and facilities...). They didn't emerge because there's a guaranteed spot for every country.
My point is that this system facilitates lower level, casual skaters instead of average good skaters from a country where there is a more deep field. Why Matteo Rizzo didn't have a chance to participate, while the Argentinian did? Is it right to you?
Obviously it's ok to leave a spot to anyone (with a certain level) but I'm only asking to reconsider the spot system, because it's completely unfair. (And I used the Italian example and not the most obvious American or Japanese to let you see that the system is unfair at every level, not only for very big countries).

 

[rosy14]

I was pointing out a slightly injustice. You can say "the Argentinian was qualified because he got the minimum". But every country has ALWAYS one spot, if their skater get the minimum (and we all know that there are competitions made ON PURPOSE to get requirements).
For other country you don't qualify ONLY because your skater get the minimum, but also considering how many places you get in the previous competition. And that is the case for every SECOND skater belonging to countries which have a decent care about this sport. The second Italian had every minimums, so he should have qualified like the Argentinian, but he couldn't because he was the second one. This system facilitates the only Argentinian, the only Armenian, the only South African, the only "what you want to insert" and not the second Italian, Kazakistan, French and so on...
What's the consequence? We see so many Russian and American skaters try to represent another country, just because it's easier for them to qualify for a non habitual country which, maybe, doesn't give a :curse:about figure skating and will never give. As I said before, with less interest from Russia, USA and Japan this sport is destined to die. These are the countries that will guarantee money, audience and everything else, not a bunch of casual countries from all around the world. I don't want to sound harsh, but that's the reality.

You're perfect right. In other sports ( alpine ski, swimming...) it's not so.
Thi system, which seems to be pefect for some manipulations, as nearly all in figure skating, levels to the bottom ,not to the high. We cannot see many talented skaters from big countries, who can really skate quite clean ,even though they are not Hanyu or Medvedeva or Chan, and instead we see athletes who can barely be suffered.
And in the end people who are interested, who follow the sport, who spend money to attend the competitions, personally or on TV, are as usual: Americans, Canadians, Europeans at large, Russians, Chineses, Japaneses...not Argentinians, Mexicans, Brazilians, Indians....
( as it happens with alpine ski, swimming, gymnastics...)

 

[alebi]

1) A limit to 3 skaters/couples for every country, independently of previous year's result
2) A balanced minimum to get and less generous judgement in "certain" competition

Et voilà, you have a fair system where everybody can participate if they meet the standards. You both guarantee a possibility for little countries but you also give more opportunities where there's a deep field of good skaters.
That's way maybe the unlucky skater (who now can't participate because of this abstruse system) can challenge itself at world level and maybe can draw some potential sponsor's attention/financial help and maybe don't give up the sport at 20 because of well known problems and maybe we and the whole discipline don't lose a potential great skater who could only bring more audience and interest around the discipline.



dorispulaski, I think you're from US, so I think you know better than me how many good female US skaters gave up too soon because the results of the others weren't good enough to guarantee more possibilities. And you even know better than me that results at national trials, where "the others" are decided, are often a little "controlled". And if you aren't rich and don't have a good entourage you will never be the chosen one.
I really don't understand why you brought Kim or Ten examples, since here nobody says that only USA/Canada/Russia/Japan have the right to compete. The question is not this one.

 

[dorispulaski]

Because there are limited spots at Worlds, Europeans, and 4CCs.

If 20 US and Canadian dance teams show up at 4CCs, there will be no small countries in the FD. Well, maybe Chris Reed and his current partner, but you won't see the Australians, Uzbekstanis, Mexicans, Kazakhstanis, North or South Koreans, Chinese, or other Japanese teams, all of whom have showed up now and again. More, and there will be no room in the SD either.

If 24 Russian ladies show up at Europeans, a similiar thing will result.

Typically, a country's entree to the big stage starts with a single skater or team, and they arrive at an international championships the first time they can scrape together the qualifications, 2 programs and a costume. And if you let an unlimited amount of US and Canadian dancers or Russian ladies compete there, they won't ever get their start. Let the lower level big country skaters and teams do more senior B's. Maybe have two Challengers' Series, one in the 4CCs region, and one in the European area, and then have a Challengers Final, to allow more or these great skaters to compete and get world points, international visibility, and sponsors.

Ultimately, the sport grows when more countries are included, not fewer.

And at end of day, there are only three medals per event in any case. Is it really going to be that much of a plus for some kids from big countries to be 15th in the World, over getting a medal and prize money in a Senior B?

 

[karne]

We cannot see many talented skaters from big countries, who can really skate quite clean ,even though they are not Hanyu or Medvedeva or Chan, and instead we see athletes who can barely be suffered.

EXCUSE YOU?! Watching Chan at Worlds was something that could barely be suffered. Watching Brendan at Worlds was the very opposite of suffering. How dare you! The skaters from the little countries work just as hard as any in the big countries, they earn that right to be there, and they do it the hard way, often with no or very little funding, unlike the big country skaters that get funding from their feds!

I've said it before but I'll say it again, I would sooner watch Kailani or Brooklee than twenty four Russian girls no matter how talented those Russian girls might be. And I would sooner watch Brendan fight it out on the World stage than see Chan's sloppy performances still get gifted 92 PCS!

 

[NaVi]

One thing I'd like to see done with regards to 3 spots is make it slightly easier to keep 3... I think it's sad that the US men had 3 in the top 10 this year and won't have 3 next year. I think for ladies starting in 2020 that you're going to want 3 Americans, 3 Russians, 3 Japanese, and 3 Koreans there.

 

[el henry]

I guess I just grew up thinking that the Olympics (because no one really thought about Worlds) is about having the teams from the *world* there. And that gives skaters from the smaller countries slots, because hey, they represent the world. Otherwise we have 24 Russian ladies. Or a marathon with 24 Kenyans and Ethiopians.

This system gives us moments with Brendan, and Julian Yee, and Deniss, and all the other skaters from other countries. And yes, it is in my mind fairer to give them the slots than to give it to the second or third best Italian, French or German skater. I want to see the world.

and I am :sad21: that the American men did not keep three spots, but that is a different question. I do agree that three skaters in the top ten should mean three skaters the next year. KISS, keep it simple.....

 

[rosy14]

I guess I just grew up thinking that the Olympics (because no one really thought about Worlds) is about having the teams from the *world* there. And that gives skaters from the smaller countries slots, because hey, they represent the world. Otherwise we have 24 Russian ladies. Or a marathon with 24 Kenyans and Ethiopians.

This system gives us moments with Brendan, and Julian Yee, and Deniss, and all the other skaters from other countries. And yes, it is in my mind fairer to give them the slots than to give it to the second or third best Italian, French or German skater. I want to see the world.

and I am :sad21: that the American men did not keep three spots, but that is a different question. I do agree that three skaters in the top ten should mean three skaters the next year. KISS, keep it simple.....

For people who "want to see the world" there are the Olympics, where the winner (say a skier from Austria) is already under the shower, when another skier (say from Indonesia) is still going down the slope...
But here we're talking about WORLDS, which should show the BEST athletes in the world. Perhaps you don't know , but at Worlds in other sports (say ski, swimming, etc) the competitors are only THE BEST, that is, those who are on top of the world ranking list according to their previous results. And of course there's a limit to the number of athletes a nation can have, otherwise we'll see only American, Australian etc swimmers, and no one form Latvia or Lithuania. But when we see them, I mean Latvian or Lithuanian, that is due to them getting the QUALIFICATION score. And, in any case, the results of this year competition have no impact on next year competition ! And this has nothing to do with the bad performance of a big athlete. If Phelps swims very badly that day, it's no reason to have low talented swimmers from other nations instead of four Americans !
SO: up the TES, three or four places accorded to the Nations with the greatest number of skaters in the world ranking list, and qualifications for all the other countries !

 

[rosy14]

Alessandrini / Souquet

They were very disappointed not to go, because they worked hard and had the TES. And at Euros they didn't perform so badly. Then, if they should leave the sport, don't ask "why" ?

 

[alebi]

Because there are limited spots at Worlds, Europeans, and 4CCs.

If 20 US and Canadian dance teams show up at 4CCs, there will be no small countries in the FD. Well, maybe Chris Reed and his current partner, but you won't see the Australians, Uzbekstanis, Mexicans, Kazakhstanis, North or South Koreans, Chinese, or other Japanese teams, all of whom have showed up now and again. More, and there will be no room in the SD either.

If 24 Russian ladies show up at Europeans, a similiar thing will result.

Typically, a country's entree to the big stage starts with a single skater or team, and they arrive at an international championships the first time they can scrape together the qualifications, 2 programs and a costume. And if you let an unlimited amount of US and Canadian dancers or Russian ladies compete there, they won't ever get their start. Let the lower level big country skaters and teams do more senior B's. Maybe have two Challengers' Series, one in the 4CCs region, and one in the European area, and then have a Challengers Final, to allow more or these great skaters to compete and get world points, international visibility, and sponsors.

Ultimately, the sport grows when more countries are included, not fewer.

And at end of day, there are only three medals per event in any case. Is it really going to be that much of a plus for some kids from big countries to be 15th in the World, over getting a medal and prize money in a Senior B?

I'm sorry since English is not my mother language and there's evidence you don't have understood what I'm saying.
NO ONE is saying that every Canadian, Russian, USA and Japanese that meet the requirements must compete at Worlds (or European or Four Continents). No one wants to see a list of only these 4 or 5 or 6 Nations competing. I'm only hoping that the ISU gets finally rid of this abstruse and unfair system, promoting a system that fix a maximum of 3 skaters per country ALWAYS, independently of previous year's results (with the only requirement of a minimum)
This will also help emerging little countries, because when you suddenly have two skaters who could participate, you'll always be blocked by the fact that you will never get a second spot! I remember very few years ago there were two good male Philippine guys. The Fed had to make a choice for International competitions and now I don't see the second guy any more. Or how hard is for Korea to develop its female/male field (in view of Olympics) since they have a good bunch of decent skaters but it's pretty impossible to get one more spot and give more opportunities.

 

[alebi]

And yes, it is in my mind fairer to give them the slots than to give it to the second or third best Italian, French or German skater. I want to see the world.

This is very harsh from you

During this discussion people said it was fair (and it IS fair) for the Argentinian to compete because he got the minimum requirements but if the second Italian/French/German got the requirements you're saying you don't give a duck about him because you don't care to see "a second, a third..."
Sorry, it's sounds really harsh and a complete nonsense!
And this useless (from your point of view) second or third skater usually makes incredible sacrifices in terms of money, family/friend time, study.. only to keep his dream on, as much as the Armenian, the Argentinian, the Brazilian, the Colombian etc.. ones. But sorry, you're the second/third, so we don't care about you even if you meet all the standards. We want to see the whole world, not a sport competition. :disapp:
So next time, why don't they broadcast the competitions on discovery channel???






Having said this, that's pretty clear that Figure Skating fans want to see more and more and more Agnes Zawadzki cases so they have the opportunity to write on a forum how sorry they feel when they read that XYZ skater had to leave the sport.

 

[karne]

But when we see them, I mean Latvian or Lithuanian, that is due to them getting the QUALIFICATION score.

And every skater at Worlds DID have the QUALIFICATION score or they wouldn't have been there! Don't you DARE disrespect the hard work of the little country skaters! They have to fight against everything, the lack of funding, a system where all the cards are stacked against them, and then to be perpetually underscored because of the flag next to their name! Don't you forget what the judges did to Julian Yee in Boston! This is the sort of rubbish the little country skaters are up against, and you want to kick them out so you can have more of your precious big-country skaters?

Brendan Kerry landed more quad toes at Worlds than Maxim Kovtun, but by YOUR standard, Brendan would never be allowed to set foot at Worlds ever, but Kovtun should get to go, oh yes, he should get special provisions to get to go, because he's from one of your precious big countries!

 

[4everchan]

Denis Margalik was born on June 3, 1997, in Buenos Aires, Argentina.[1] His parents, born in Ukraine, relocated the family to New York, United States, in late December 1999, and soon after, to Canada.[2] Margalik, the second of three boys, grew up in Mississauga before moving to Richmond Hill, Ontario.[2][3] He attended Silverthorn Collegiate Institute. FROM WIKI

you know.. we are talking so much about the argentinian... but the sad truth is that he is canadian.. and only skating for argentina because he can that way, make it to worlds...

PERSONALLY, I think it's great since it opens up interest (but we would need to see if it really does, like did he get interviews from National Argentina Medias etc) for figure skating in Argentina... same with Amy Lin from Taiwan well... from the USA... or Mr Lam from... HK well from Canada (I think he has retired in 2015... )

etc etc etc

so the question is : is it okay that a skater who is less competitive than the second Italian or French man, to compete in these cases where actually, that skater is just opting to skate for another country as he will never make the national team in Canada or USA....?

 

[el henry]

I am sorry if I sound harsh, and I do not mean to disrespect the very hard work and sacrifices made by all skaters. I happen to follow a Canadian ice dancing pair that are, rumor has it, going to split because they have almost no hope of international competitions, even though they are a delight to watch. I understand the disappointment.

But since we can't have all the skaters, if we need to limit the skaters, I would prefer to "spread the wealth". And I don't know about other sports, but I know that in track and field, for example, they do limit the number of entrants from one country, or all the distance races would have all Kenyans. I don't mind; I am more interested in variety than seeing the "best".

As for "country shopping", I'm not sure that's a fair argument against "spreading the wealth" either. Misha Ge has a tenuous, let us say, connection to Uzbekistan. But I would rather see Misha than the second rated skater from almost any other country. Of course, that's because I love Misha And other small "fed" skaters, like Brendan, Julian and Deniss cannot be accused of country shopping.

 

[4everchan]

I am sorry if I sound harsh, and I do not mean to disrespect the very hard work and sacrifices made by all skaters. I happen to follow a Canadian ice dancing pair that are, rumor has it, going to split because they have almost no hope of international competitions, even though they are a delight to watch. I understand the disappointment.

yup... i see what you mean.... and i'd prefer seeing them skating for Antarctica than not skating... I ADORE THEM TOO but yeah... they are in a tough spot being Canadian ice dancers...

 

[alebi]

I am sorry if I sound harsh, and I do not mean to disrespect the very hard work and sacrifices made by all skaters. I happen to follow a Canadian ice dancing pair that are, rumor has it, going to split because they have almost no hope of international competitions, even though they are a delight to watch. I understand the disappointment.

But since we can't have all the skaters, if we need to limit the skaters, I would prefer to "spread the wealth". And I don't know about other sports, but I know that in track and field, for example, they do limit the number of entrants from one country, or all the distance races would have all Kenyans. I don't mind; I am more interested in variety than seeing the "best".

As for "country shopping", I'm not sure that's a fair argument against "spreading the wealth" either. Misha Ge has a tenuous, let us say, connection to Uzbekistan. But I would rather see Misha than the second rated skater from almost any other country. Of course, that's because I love Misha And other small "fed" skaters, like Brendan, Julian and Deniss cannot be accused of country shopping.

I think you, as all the others that are here "arguing", are misreading the problem.

1) no one is saying that all Canadian, Russian etc who get the minimum should compete. NO ONE. And so PLEASE STOP SAYING "I don't want to see a list of skaters from all the same countries".

2) the problem I'm pointing out is: there is already a cap of max 3 skaters from the same country. THAT'S COMPLETELY FAIR. But this cap must be ALWAYS AVAILABLE, no matter what your skaters did in the previous year. That's what exists in every other sports, athletics too (who even leaves an extra spot for former world champions or former diamond league champions, to ensure that best athletes are always in).

Why I'm saying this?

1) because the spots you get aren't personal, nominal (I don't know which is the proper word to say it). So if Hanyu earn the spot, he's not earning for him, he's getting the spot for his country. Considering that one country's situation in a given year CAN'T BE an accurate picture of what will happen in the FOLLOWING season (because of retirement or injuries and so on...), you can't base this on the past, you have to leave a possibility to anyone coming afterwards.

2) because limiting the spots is counterproductive even for smaller countries. I brought you the example of Philippines and the actual situation of Korea. They're basing THEIR WHOLE FUTURE on fate, praying that their only contestant doesn't make mistakes while a bunch of many other competitors do, enough to get an impossible extra spot because if you count 3 from Japan, 3 from Russia, 3 from USA, 3 from Canada, your top 12 is easier said than done. You have to hope in an impossible connection between stars and destiny to get an extra spot. Would you call this DEVELOPMENT?

3) because limiting the possibilities even to less than 3 skaters (which, I'm gonna say it again, is at least a fairer cap), forces many skaters to leave the sport too soon and it happens in every country, big or less ones. I wrote about Agnes Zawadski but I could write about tons of young Italians who you don't even know because, even if they met the standards, they had no chances to participate anywhere. And being able to participate in a big competition give you the possibility to attract sponsors and receive a money help. I hope we all know how expensive figure skating is. Would you describe this as DEVELOPMENT?

4) finally, but not less important, we see so many skaters changing nationality. Unfortunately this MARKET is happening in all the sports, another demonstration that a cap is always negative, imagine even less than 3. Would you explain all of these as DEVELOPMENT?


A system where there are minimums to get, but ANY COUNTRY has always the possibility to send 3 skaters is the easier and only way to promote the sport. How can someone argue about it?

 

[Sackie]

yup... i see what you mean.... and i'd prefer seeing them skating for Antarctica than not skating... I ADORE THEM TOO but yeah... they are in a tough spot being Canadian ice dancers...

Got to ask - which team? But I do agree some of those teams in the 4th, 5th and 6ths spots in Canada have no chance of international assignments especially now with V/M returning. And things are so tight in CAN Dance that it only takes 1 error to drop you in the rankings - just look at Paul/Islam!