2018 Worlds Ladies Short Program

[zschultz1986]

You make an interesting point. Eveything matters in figure skating. But im pretty sure the"hard stuff" is the most important aspect of seperating figure skating when deciding gold silver and bronze.

And that hard stuff has an entirely separate section in the scoring called TES, where individual elements are given a value and a Grade of Execution is judged (or GoE) based on nothing but how they were performed. PCS is not that, though the elements make up a program. You can do great elements, and still have a bad or displeasing or junorish program. She performs the individual elements very well, though the combo not so much today. However, Zagitova's program is not worthy of the PCS it is given, in comparison to the other, more mature, better skating, better artists in the field with better programs that perform their elements just as well (or better, in Caro's case) than her. Period.

Do you understand what makes up PCS? Or should I explain that to you as well?


The problem is that with the quantification of Skating, they've tried to quantify taste and artistry, and that just doesn't work. Artistry and art is more than the sum of its parts, and you know it when you see it. Eteri's style of putting together programs is NOT art. It's movement for the sake of gathering points and nothing else.

 

[SXTN]

Zagitova has the "wow factor"? Where?

It is difficult to explain but maybe it's her charm and her presence on the ice? And she has a beautiful face too.

I will give you an example: I watched the Games with someone who is no figure skating fan. I needed to explain the different type of jumps.
And that person loved Alina. And Kaetlyn. When the final results were shown I was asked: "Who is the girl in 4th place? I don't remember her." That was Satoko. In that moment I realized what Satoko's problem is. She is not memorable despite her beautiful skating.

 

[zschultz1986]

Once again, more or less adequate judging. Caro was on fire today same as in Moscow while Alina was a bit less than perfect. So 1st and 2nd place are obvious. The rest is quite reasonable as well. May be Maria's jumps other than 2A were URd and not called. At the same time I don't see Gabby ahead of her overall. I still think that there is too much hype about her 3T-3T. Yes, it's big but not +3GOE big. Sotnikova's was bigger - at least that's my impression.

Sorry, but nothing about the PCS Zagitova is getting is reasonable.

 

[zschultz1986]

It is difficult to explain but maybe it's her charm and her presence on the ice? And she has a beautiful face too.

I will give you an example: I watched the Games with someone who is no figure skating fan. I needed to explain the different type of jumps.
And that person loved Alina. And Kaetlyn. When the final results were shown I was asked: "Who is the girl in 4th place? I don't remember her." That was Satoko. In that moment I realized what Satoko's problem is. She is not memorable despite her beautiful skating.

Lots of people who are well versed in figure skating remember Satoko just fine.

So, because one person who doesn't watch figure skating didn't remember who Satoko was, that means she doesn't have WOW factor? What a terrible way to judge that.

 

[[email protected]]

Sorry, but nothing about the PCS Zagitova is getting is reasonable.

I am not in a mood for an arm-chair expert discussion. Call it TES, call it pcs Alina deserves to be second after SP because overall no one was better than her but Caro. Then the judging is adequate as the placements are adequate. With all due respect to Satoko she has too small jumps to be a champion. Osmond made a mistake.

And by the way Alina deserves to be reigning OGM winner, inflated her pcs or not.

 

[SXTN]

Lots of people who are well versed in figure skating remember Satoko just fine.

So, because one person who doesn't watch figure skating didn't remember who Satoko was, that means she doesn't have WOW factor? What a terrible way to judge that.

That's a very common way of judging since there is also performance and interpretation in the component mark.

Skating Skills: Satoko > Alina (crystal clear)
Transition: Alina > Satoko (crystal clear)
Performance: Alina > Satoko (my personal taste)
Choreographie: Alina > Satoko (both programs are choreographed well to the music, though Satoko's is very old-fashioned and nothing new whereas Alina's black duck program has a very modern and new approach)
Interpretation: Alina > Satoko (Alina is more into the character with her face and body movements, portraying the tranformation into the crazy black swan very well)

 

[zschultz1986]

I am not in a mood for an arm-chair expert discussion. Call it TES, call it pcs Alina deserves to be second after SP because overall no one was better than her but Caro. Then the judging is adequate as the placements are adequate. With all due respect to Satoko she has too small jumps to be a champion. Osmond made a mistake.

And by the way Alina deserves to be reigning OGM winner, inflated her pcs or not.

Meh, she's more deserving that Sotnikova, I'll give her that much. However, no, Med is a more deserving winner. I dislike her artistry, but at least she started holding positions for longer than millisecond. Alina is still skating like junior, and because judges are crap, they went wit hit all the way to an OGM.

Eteri's programs are all crap anyway. No intent behind movement except to garner points.

 

[Scott512]

And that hard stuff has an entirely separate section in the scoring called TES, where individual elements are given a value and a Grade of Execution is judged (or GoE) based on nothing but how they were performed. PCS is not that, though the elements make up a program. You can do great elements, and still have a bad or displeasing or junorish program. She performs the individual elements very well, though the combo not so much today. However, Zagitova's program is not worthy of the PCS it is given, in comparison to the other, more mature, better skating, better artists in the field with better programs that perform their elements just as well (or better, in Caro's case) than her. Period.

Do you understand what makes up PCS? Or should I explain that to you as well?


The problem is that with the quantification of Skating, they've tried to quantify taste and artistry, and that just doesn't work. Artistry and art is more than the sum of its parts, and you know it when you see it. Eteri's style of putting together programs is NOT art. It's movement for the sake of gathering points and nothing else.

Thanks.

 

[zschultz1986]

That's a very common way of judging since there is also performance and interpretation in the component mark.

Skating Skills: Satoko > Alina (crystal clear)
Transition: Alina > Satoko (crystal clear)
Performance: Alina > Satoko (my personal taste)
Choreographie: Alina > Satoko (both programs are choreographed well to the music, though Satoko's is very old-fashioned and nothing new whereas Alina's black duck program has a very modern and new approach)
Interpretation: Alina > Satoko (Alina is more into the character with her face and body movements, portraying the tranformation into the crazy black swan very well)

LOL. You got the first two right, then went right off the deep end. Peformance they were about equal.
Choreo and Interpretation it should be Satoko >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alina.


How do you even know what the Choreo and Interpretation was? Alina barely held positions for more than a second? Or is that your reasoning behind the better scores? It's a disguise to hide the fact that Eteri's programs are nothing more than movement for points sake. It's a disguise she uses even less successfully in her long. All her movement is rushed, even in the empty part of her long. Sorry, not buying it.

 

[LiamForeman]

Well at least Konstantinova lived up to expectations and didn't do worse than expected....

 

[Scott512]

Funny that the german pair got such a humongous score for a flawed skate versus the better and more clean performance by tarasova and morozov but not alina the other oly champ because she went up against Italy's golden girl humm...

True. Thanks for saying it.

 

[SXTN]

LOL. You got the first two right, then went right off the deep end. Peformance they were about equal.
Choreo and Interpretation it should be Satoko >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alina.

But obviously international judges from all over the world agree with me.

You are right when you say Alina is not holding positions long enough. She is 15! Come on!

And again you are right when you say Eteri's programs are constructed to garner points. Because that's what they succesfully do!

 

[Scott512]

Well at least Konstantinova lived up to expectations and didn't do worse than expected....

Poor girl. I feel for her and what shes going through. I miss Pogo and Radia as up and down as they are.

 

[SXTN]

It's a disguise she uses even less successfully in her long. All her movement is rushed, even in the empty part of her long. Sorry, not buying it.

Whaaaaat? She is hitting every accent in the music with her jumps and movements. And the whole audience claps along. The long program is fun, balletic, impactful and charming.

 

[Kiarararara]

I will give you an example: I watched the Games with someone who is no figure skating fan. I needed to explain the different type of jumps.
And that person loved Alina. And Kaetlyn. When the final results were shown I was asked: "Who is the girl in 4th place? I don't remember her." That was Satoko. In that moment I realized what Satoko's problem is. She is not memorable despite her beautiful skating.

The wow factor is really subjective anyway. And it is wholly circumstantial as well. I got it the first time I watched Carolina, I got Satoko after marathoning her past programs, there are moments when Russian girls (both their Oly team and others like Pogo) really wow me, but I never feel it with Kaetlyn or Wakaba even though I can understand why others do. But I still think both Kaetlyn and Wakaba have really good skating.

This might be irrelevant to OP’s opinion but, imo figure skating is a sport (and an art from some aspects), it is not showbiz so that wow factor needs to be factored in PCS. If we are talking about sponsorship it is another story but on the ice wow factor should not matter aside from its translation into performance score.

 

[LandShark]

her jumps are the wow factor controrary to satokos. and she creats controversy

Both girls perform really rather small jumps. Neither are exactly "wow." Incredibly , Kostner came back to producing the wow factor tonight after all these years.

 

[Ziotic]

I feel like overall the judging is very suspect. Everything is corridor judging and if you go outside those lines your get your wrist slapped. Judges want to keep their jobs so they don’t.

If you look at someone like Radionova it’s very clear. In general: her SS are not great, maybe 6.5-7.5 her performance is great 8.75-9.75, her interpretation is good 8.5-9.5. Transitions/Choreo vary with the construction of the program. Although these vary depending on the skate all her marks just end up being in 7.5-8.5 range.

There is no difference for each of the 5 segments, PCS are absolutely being used as ranking system, when it’s not supposed to be.

 

[Jontor]

I must admit that I don't really see the greatness in Carolina. Our Swedish commentator (former skater Filip Stiller) said it was the best he'd ever seen and wanted the judges to push the 10 button for PCS. Obviously, he's more experienced than me, but what IS he seeing that I don't?? When Carolina skates I sometimes get the feeling she has a coffee cup with her and takes a break now and then to take a sip. It's that slow.
Alina, on the other hand, I just get exhausted by watching her. A lot is going on, never a dull moment.
I get it that Carolina gets more PCS marks for her smoothness over Alina - but Carolina's tech mark!!??!! In my book that was at least 5 points, maybe more, less difficult than Alina's. But there was only 1 TES point between them in the end.
I have this strange feeling that come Friday, Alina's brilliant long skate will not overtake Carolina's. I hope I'm wrong.
And I can't believe that I will have to root for Sotskova on Friday so that Russia won't lose a spot next year, which would be a CRIME if it happens.

 

[cheerio2]

She does a rocker into her 2A that’s not the hardest entry, almost everyone does it. Her jumps are also sometime borderline under rotated. Yes, she does a 3L combo but that’s about it she does different as others backload their entire SP too.

She also does a Charlotte spiral and a split jump before that.

 

[vavavoom]

This was the very first time I saw Stanislava Konstantinova... missed her at Junior Worlds... and for all of her unjustified criticism on the forum... I became an instant fan. Loved that SP!