2018 Worlds Mens Free Skate

[icybear]

Nathan Chen 91pcs for 0 transitions, weak junior skating skills and basic average choreography. His pcs should never be above Uno.This time next year he'll receive the same pcs as Hanyu paid for by his fed.

 

[karne]

Okay. I've had some sleep and I can actually think straight again, so a few extra thoughts:

- Brendan. Super, super proud of Brendan. I know, I know, he was messy and not perfect but he kept fighting. And for me that's still the number one factor.

- Max. Oh, Max. At first, after he finished, I was crying, I was hollow, I was devastated. I wanted everything for him. But I'm so proud of him. And now I'm enjoying the sudden rush of love towards him as people realised that you do need the experienced guy to help bring home three spots after all. And then he went and gave me hope so I'll just continue this painful existence.

- Still want to give Vincent and Boyang hugs.

- I assume Artur lifted his curse on the World medals after the way poor Kolyada was treated by the RuFed/Russian press during/after the Olympics.

- Oh, PCS. 88 for that disaster of Uno's was high. And then they went and gave Nathan 91 for that literal stroke-stroke-jump FS. Don't get me wrong, I'm grateful Nathan saved the event and admiring of the technical feat. But 91 PCS is a huge NO.

 

[kimganos]

Nathan Chen 91pcs for 0 transitions, weak junior skating skills and basic average choreography. His pcs should never be above Uno.This time next year he'll receive the same pcs as Hanyu paid for by his fed.

Well unfortunately the quest to land a 6 quad program decimates any chance for real choreography. I wouldn't call his skating skills juniorish because Nathan's Nemesis short program when skated clean really has some moments of brilliance. But in no way should Nathan be getting 9's for PCS in his FS. I'm hoping the new rules will cause Nathan and his team to focus on his PCS and Jump GOEs next season because there is a real cool cat charisma to his skating.

 

[dalenofff]

for those that keep saying this is "figure skating" not "jumping skating" , I guess you want the compulsory portion of the sport back into the program.. after all that were the "figure " came from...

 

[Hayashi]

Just read a few of the posts over the last couple of pages because I haven't seen the Men's competition yet. I don't know how anybody on this board can say what a skater thinks, feels or is determined to do going into a competition. It bothers me greatly to read "he didn't care enough" or words to that effect. That posted while sitting in the comfort of your home watching it on TV. These skaters practice hours every day for months on end. They give up normal lives for their sport. If they didn't care they wouldn't do it and don't dare to think otherwise. That's just ignorance and narrow-mindedness. Every skater has a bad day.,,.or two or three. Sometimes it happens on the world's biggest stage and that's truly unfortunate. But to even consider one of these men didn't care enough to try their hardest just is so ridiculous. I feel badly for Zhou even though he isn't one of my favorites and Boyang and Shoma. What a bad note to end their season on. But all of these guys deserve a big rest and not a little understanding and empathy from the fans.

Thank you for your words. After all the ones that really suffer the falls were them, not us. I have nothing to complain, they do their best.

Hope they all take some rest because they have a very busy schedule

I wish someone had asked Shoma about the current state of his injury during the press conference... although he probably would have said it was fine... I'm so worry

 

[Blades of Passion]

I think Aliev was quite good, and I see him higher than 6. I haven't checked the protocols, still his skating was refreshing when compared to last group except for Chen.

Yes, I think Tomono deserved 2nd in the LP (AND overall) and Aliev 3rd. Those guys saved the LP of this event, along with Deniss Vasiljevs and Misha Ge to an extent. I wish Aliev had a better musical transition between the two pieces he uses though, there's always been that distracting gap in the music and there's no reason for it. He also didn't have the same energy in this performance when the music change hit, but up until that it was really the best performance of the competition.

 

[Hayashi]

Don’t know if someone already posted it but here’s the link to the press conference:

https://youtu.be/S3VCwmExAx0

I just love to see Kolyada so happy, he can hardly stop smiling

Thank you.
Kolyada looks really happy, is true.
I like the way Shoma include him in the question about the points they like from each others, even when the journalist asked only for Chen

 

[georgia]

Nathan Chen 91pcs for 0 transitions, weak junior skating skills and basic average choreography. His pcs should never be above Uno.This time next year he'll receive the same pcs as Hanyu paid for by his fed.

Hmmm... I will leave it to that.

 

[noskates]

I'm laughing. No matter WHO wins there are always those who try to bring them down with criticism, second-guessing the judges, etc. etc. ad nauseum. Regardless of the scores, the ONLY skater that skated half-way decent tonight and not all over his butt was Nathan Chen. Yes I'm glad he won. But - I also think this particular Worlds showcased some of the up and comers and what we have to look forward to in the future.

Sure would be nice if people could just enjoy the competition for what it is and not have to pick it apart. Guess that's a "pie in the sky" wish.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Nathan easily deserved to win the competition, nobody would question that, but his scores are very inflated. It sets a bad trend for the whole of skating. This is what people will copy now, with artistry far on the backburner.

 

[karne]

Screw over? I know you love Max, but that was generous.

Hi Alchamei, I wonder if you feel the same way now knowing that Vincent got 76 - only one point lower - for his FS?

 

[georgia]

Nathan easily deserved to win the competition, nobody would question that, but his scores are very inflated. It sets a bad trend for the whole of skating. This is what people will copy now, with artistry far on the backburner.

All depends how each person sees artistry. Do you like theatrical skating, or more subdued? For sure Athan is not theatrical, and I mean that in a nice way, but his ballet training makes his skating sweet, and the program perfect for an introvert person like Nathan. Maybe in the near future he will be able to connect more with audiences. I think Lori did a marvelous job with this music. She mostly wanted to connect the athlete with his family’s roots, so to bring out that “ something” Nathan needs ! For a skater who had to learn all these difficult jumps and the hours he spend practicing them on ice, when other skaters had more time in their arsenal to develop , I think his artistry improved a lot this year, and the marks reflect not only his artistry, but also his athleticism. Skating is a sport after all.

 

[Arriba627]

Thank you.
Kolyada looks really happy, is true.
I like the way Shoma include him in the question about the points they like from each others, even when the journalist asked only for Chen

I thought it was great the way they all showed appreciation for each other. And yes, Kolyada's face will hurt tomorrow from smiling so much. My favorite Ilia Kulik look alike!

 

[zschultz1986]

Nathan easily deserved to win the competition, nobody would question that, but his scores are very inflated. It sets a bad trend for the whole of skating. This is what people will copy now, with artistry far on the backburner.

The bad trend has been going on for decades.

 

[yelyoh]

All depends how each person sees artistry. Do you like theatrical skating, or more subdued? For sure Athan is not theatrical, and I mean that in a nice way, but his ballet training makes his skating sweet, and the program perfect for an introvert person like Nathan. Maybe in the near future he will be able to connect more with audiences. I think Laurie did a marvelous job with this music. She mostly wanted to connect the athlete with his family’s roots, so to bring out that “ something” Nathan needs ! For a skater who had to learn all these difficult jumps and the hours he spend practicing them on ice, when other skaters had more time in their arsenal to develop , I think his artistry improved a lot this year, and the marks reflect not only his artistry, but also his athleticism. Skating is a sport after all.

Ditto that. I have seen Nathan perform this LP better but there was choreography and yes Lori did a good job and Nathan executed more than just jumps.

 

[Arriba627]

OK, everyone knows Nathan is not my fav skater, and Shoma is a cutie, but I’m not going to give blood over him, and everyone else, live by the quad, die by the quad ....

But my only three *real* reasons for watching these Worlds came through!:agree:

DENISS!:hap57: Yes, yes, yes, and too bad, I *like* the costume and I like Michael Bublé, so I loved it even more....
Misha ::yes: I like happy purple hair Misha better, but hey, you’re Misha. That’s enough.
Donovan:hap93: what a triumph for Mexico and Mexican skating. What an adorable firecracker.
That is all

Deniss was fantastic! And I got such a hoot out of Stephane during both the SP and FS. I'm not sure who was working harder, Deniss or Steph. I had 2 ladies from Switzerland sitting in back of me, and the 3 of us couldn't stop laughing at how S. was moving around, leaning, etc. Deniss is really a crowd pleaser. So happy for him that he did so well.

 

[Metis]

It is naive to think this sport is ever going to be so-called "objective". No matter how you tweak the rules, it is always going to be subjective, in some ways.

No one is disputing that. But I wouldn’t make that my argument, as try following that argument out for a moment: if figure skating is subjective to the point where any mark can be justified if someone says, “Well, it’s subjective, and I say it’s a 10,” you can’t call objections “complaining.” You saw 91 in PCS. I didn’t. We’re both right if it’s impossible to apply any objective standards. Therefore, what some of us see as PCS inflation that doesn’t pass the “straight face” test, let alone hold up under ‘strict scrutiny’ ... if it’s all subjective, then there’s no need to argue, right?

I’ve studied and employed mixed methods research (quantitative and qualitative methods) because what I studied didn’t generate a large enough N for simple regression analyses but there’s also a need to properly define variables, create a falsifiable study, and properly test a hypothesis. PCS is functionally a very bad use of mixed methods that devolves into game theory hell due to the use of a trimmed mean; there’s an inescapable metagame to judging that’s going to force the system to collapse past a certain point. There’s a litany of issues related to behavioral economics and human psychology I have with PCS (anchoring, the inability of the human brain to judge in isolation/comparative marks being inevitable, don’t get me started on what we could learn from research into voting systems...) — the current system is terrible. For what it’s worth, I’ve never said otherwise and have already tl;dr’d its inherent flaws, so I’m not singling out Chen. The system is fundamentally broken, and Chen’s PCS marks today are another example of that. You may disagree on whether the number was justified, but to dismiss everything anyone has to say as idle complaints is ridiculous and frankly short-sighted; PCS is functionally how judges decide the podium order, and when the day comes that the boot is on the other foot, do you really want to be dismissed as a complainer?

So we’re left with the fact that not only is figure skating inherently subjective, but also that we have a terrible system for capturing that element of variance (artistry/PCS, GOEs). Can we agree on that? Actually, does anyone disagree on that? Because as far as I can tell, we all know the system is broken. We may disagree on why and how to fix it, but I wouldn’t accept ISU’s CoP as a research proposal from an undergrad. There are no clear definitions of terms, inherent issues with intercoder reliability (What does “8” mean to two different people? Now? Across time? Across competitions?), an obvious exploit via the trimmed mean that basic logic should make clear immediately... it is a mess. And it shows clearly in a case like this: Chen is inarguably the winner. He had the title on BV alone, as I recall noting after the short. But that’s not what his scores, under ISU’s own language, said: his scores say that he delivered two programs worth 321.40 points, making him only the second male skater in history to hit 320 total. He now has the third-highest scoring free skate under current rules and was roughly 4 points off the current World Record, set a year ago at the same competition.

No one is contesting that Chen won Worlds, and frankly won it with a mic drop that crashed through the ice into the basement. I specialize as Satan’s personal attorney and there’s no Devil’s advocate argument for anyone else holding the title; if you can find someone willing to dispute it... well, that’s the subjectivity trap, I suppose. But I think any reasonable person who’s “complaining” would stipulate to the following points:
1. Chen won his Worlds title without any room for argument.
2. Some or all of his component marks cannot plausibly be defended, as while his technical content is overpowering and he certainly doesn’t deserve 0s in PCS, numbers mean something. Skating Skills is not meant to reward nor punish jump technique, and by its stated definition, Chen was overscored there. (This is different from saying he lacks skating skills. He doesn’t. Are his skating skills at the level they were marked? I disagree. I am a fan, but I disagree.)
3. His PCS did not need to be highest simply because he stayed upright. He was rewarded for that amply in his TES. Gut check: if you don’t believe skaters should be punished for technical errors twice (once in GOEs and again in PCS), logically, you should also disagree with the idea of double rewards on the same principle. Either TES and PCS serve two different functions or we may as well skip PCS. (This has nothing to do with Chen specifically. It’s about checking to see if your beliefs are consistent.) Chen arguably had weaker PCS content in some areas but because of his high BV, even if he hadn’t had the highest PCS, he’d still have won the FS by a laughably large distance and the title, no question.
4. Comparisons over time are dangerous due to the meteoric rise in PCS, but the World Record for the free skate was set about a year ago at the same competition. Marks for men haven’t changed that much since. So it’s worth asking: was that really within four points of the WR? How much of this is a weaker field, a bad showing by the last group, high TES inflating PCS, etc.? Is it worth asking if these marks are over-rewarding non-existent or yet to be fully demonstrated abilities? Where’s Chen’s room for growth? Or do we just say “subjective” and move on?

Chen, just like every other skater, should be rewarded appropriately for what he does well, given lower marks in his weaker areas (subject to improvement), and held to the same technical standards as everyone else. Not really a controversial statement. The problem is what happens in reality. (Had his 4F UR been called, his overall score would be under 320. Again: boots. Feet. They do tend to change. Especially with a new scoring system.)

I think this was a massive improvement from the OWG... and still can’t justify 90+ PCS. Nathan has so much artistic potential, and, yes, more of it was on the ice today. PE, sure. IE? Better than at the Olympics, where there was none and he missed two cues for his jumping passes, but not stratospheric. SS? Above average, not exceptional. CO? Lutz, flip, flip to open is a technical wonder, not a thoughtful distribution of elements or particularly resonant with the music. Again: I really like Nathan. But 91 for not falling down is ridiculous and I can’t — as much as I try — make a realistic argument for a 9.25 in CO or 9.32 in SS. I can gush about his takeoffs on any of the toe jumps for days, as they’re gorgeous, but that’s covered in TES.

You think PCS should be an absolute value across competitions?

Let’s admit it can’t be, though it also can be analyzed over a given season. I ask you this, though: where does Nathan’s PCS go from here? Thanks to the trimmed mean, no one is getting 100; Hanyu missed a 10 in one mark last year by one judge (9.75, so final average was 9.86). He had 5 out of 7 give him 10s and I’d call that as realistically close to maxing out as we’re likely to see. So how much more can Nathan grow? What if the judges need to inflate to get him on the podium but because his starting average is now so high, he’s run out of space for higher marks? Oops.

Also, I will certainly not try to justify the scores. I did not hand out the scores, so I don't see why I have to justify them.

You actually do have to justify them if you’re going to accuse other people of “complaining,” but we’ll wait for you to take some Intro to Logic courses before getting back to us.

 

[blue_idealist]

Four falls for silver and two for bronze? I would've much rather seen Bychenko on the podium. And I even like Shoma and somewhat like Mikhail.

 

[Arriba627]

I'm afraid Yuzuru won't be allowed to retire (one day)

 

[chopinskate]

PE, sure. IE? Better than at the Olympics, where there was none and he missed two cues for his jumping passes, but not stratospheric. SS? Above average, not exceptional. CO? Lutz, flip, flip to open is a technical wonder, not a thoughtful distribution of elements or particularly resonant with the music. Again: I really like Nathan. But 91 for not falling down is ridiculous and I can’t — as much as I try — make a realistic argument for a 9.25 in CO or 9.32 in SS. I can gush about his takeoffs on any of the toe jumps for days, as they’re gorgeous, but that’s covered in TES.

A mistake free-skate would have guaranteed around a 93.

9.32 in SS is Patrick Chan level. It is clear he's nowhere near that. 9.25 in CO is what a program like Seimei might expect. This is nowhere near that.