2019 Four Continents: Men's Pregame Chat

[el henry]

When did Jason land a rotated 4S in official practice? It is simply not true. I thought we all saw the ones he did at Nats and deemed them clearly UR.

Shin does not bode well for Vincent. To a lesser extent, this is also bad news for Jason Brown because of his 3A issues and quad. I don't know how Shin has dealt with Shoma's PR in the past, but Shoma in danger also does not do well with harsh UR panels.

To be honest no one is really immune from URs. I think if Boyang lands his jumps they are clean. But when he falls, they are often UR or even downgraded as well.

When did anyone see Jason land a quad in practice? When persons whom I trust to report accurately, have said so in their in person reports of practices. Which means more to me than someone’s review of a fancam. that’s just me

I don’t think any poster here is in a position to say what we “all” saw. Any opinion expressed here is one person’s opinion, Including mine.

Looking forward to more reports from our in person attendees; thanks for everything so far!

 

[skylark]

Oh, so THIS is where the Live Reports are! So ... would some kind person report on pairs' practices, if you've seen any? I'll also go to Rockerskating.

Interesting analyses .... and as always, passionate arguments going on. On the subject of Shoma's URS vs. Boyang's falls and why PCS are widely divergent, I have to agree with Shoma's marks keeping him higher. URs are less disruptive to the program and often not visible to viewers (and some viewers don't care) ... and also, as was ppointed out upthread, Shoma's non-jump elements get deservedly high GOEs. Just like Jason's do.

But I like Boyang very much; he has a charming personality with his skates, when he doesn't make mistakes and get discouraged. And I love Vincent; he said in a 30-second interview on jumbotron at Nats that what he's always thinking about while skating is the music and how to express it. And that shows. So I would say that as he keeps working steadily to improve his URs, we'll see results in competitions as well as practices. He's only 18, I believe, and has time to improve technique.

Good luck to all the skaters, and Good Skating to All!

all.

 

[bobbob]

Where in this thread did anyone say Jason landed a fully-rotated quad in official practice? Have you attended every single official practice where he’s ever attempted a quad? If not, how do you know what’s true or not true? Regarding Nats practices specifically, have you seen anything other than the single grainy video clip posted in the main forum, which was only one quad attempt?

He also said US Nationals was the first time he was landing it in official practice which is a positive step.

He claims he landed one, but I'm thinking it is most likely because he doesn't acknowledge his UR problems. I guess there may have been more, but there were more than one that I did see and all were UR/fall/popped.

 

[bobbob]

When did anyone see Jason land a quad in practice? When persons whom I trust to report accurately, have said so in their in person reports of practices. Which means more to me than someone’s review of a fancam. that’s just me

I don’t think any poster here is in a position to say what we “all” saw. Any opinion expressed here is one person’s opinion, Including mine.

Looking forward to more reports from our in person attendees; thanks for everything so far!

Let me reword that then...there is no evidence Jason has ever landed a rotated quad salchow. Even though he claims he has, realize that skaters often do not acknowledge their own URs.

In any case, even if Jason attempts one at FC, and doesn't pop or fall, he will still definitely get a UR. It really is a moot point to discuss whether he "landed" one because he definitely isn't getting any credit in competition.

 

[skylark]

I don’t think any poster here is in a position to say what we “all” saw. Any opinion expressed here is one person’s opinion, Including mine.

Especially when it comes to URs. Including the tech experts assigned to each competition. Witness the arguments here, and the outrage about uncalled URs. It depends on who's looking, and who they're looking at.

Looking forward to more reports from our in person attendees; thanks for everything so far!

Me too!

 

[el henry]

He claims he landed one, but I'm thinking it is most likely because he doesn't acknowledge his UR problems. I guess there may have been more, but there were more than one that I did see and all were UR/fall/popped.

It appears your definition of evidence and my definition of evidence may differ.

I believe reports of persons attending events *are* evidence. That may be a professional bias, as such reports would certainly be accepted in a courtroom. Such reports, in most cases, would be considered better evidence than a personal interpretation of a fancam from someone who did not observe the event in person.

Jason has “claimed” nothing, that I know of, other to say that he is working on the quad at TCC and making progress. Do you have a link about a “claim” of Jason’s that is untrue? ETA: based on reports of persons were there and who observed Jason. That is the only evidence I am interested in, because that is the definition of evidence we use.

Again, if someone said “I did X” in a courtroom and someone else said “I saw you do X” (very simplified obviously) in courtroom, that would be proof that someone did X. If the cross examination was only “well, I never saw videos of you doing X” from someone who wasn’t there, that cross examination would fail, and X would be proven.

I can’t escape my training

 

[Tavi...]

Let me reword that then...there is no evidence Jason has ever landed a rotated quad salchow. Even though he claims he has, realize that skaters often do not acknowledge their own URs.

In any case, even if Jason attempts one at FC, and doesn't pop or fall, he will still definitely get a UR. It really is a moot point to discuss whether he "landed" one because he definitely isn't getting any credit in competition.

Well, @bobbob, all I’m gonna say is that (1) you spend an awful lot of time dissing Jason; and (2) I’m really happy you’re not defending me in a criminal trial. For the record, you may not have seen the evidence that Jason has ever landed a fully rotated 4S; that doesn’t mean he hasn’t or that no evidence exists. And honestly - you shouldn’t speculate as to what he thinks and means.

 

[century2009]

I do believe that Jason 4S in practice is UR. Even before with his 4T it was UR. But this is all mute until he actually does it in competition.

There is too many he said, she said, in practice so until Jason can finaIly do this 4S in practice, there is a bit of trolling us here.

I do think if he lands this 4S finally in competition, it will probably be UR especially at this event with the tech controller.

Given the tech controller, Vincent will not survive. I can see all his quads being call UR and maybe his 3A as well.

Jun is also in trouble because he does UR his 4T and 4S usually. So this is worrisome for him.

 

[bobbob]

Well, @bobbob, all I’m gonna say is that (1) you spend an awful lot of time dissing Jason; and (2) I’m really happy you’re not defending me in a criminal trial. For the record, you may not have seen the evidence that Jason has ever landed a fully rotated 4S; that doesn’t mean he hasn’t or that no evidence exists. And honestly - you shouldn’t speculate as to what he thinks and means.

Well I would hope you don't have a criminal trial...

Have you seen the evidence?

 

[bobbob]

It appears your definition of evidence and my definition of evidence may differ.

I believe reports of persons attending events *are* evidence. That may be a professional bias, as such reports would certainly be accepted in a courtroom. Such reports, in most cases, would be considered better evidence than a personal interpretation of a fancam from someone who did not observe the event in person.

Jason has “claimed” nothing, that I know of, other to say that he is working on the quad at TCC and making progress. Do you have a link about a “claim” of Jason’s that is untrue? ETA: based on reports of persons were there and who observed Jason. That is the only evidence I am interested in, because that is the definition of evidence we use.

Again, if someone said “I did X” in a courtroom and someone else said “I saw you do X” (very simplified obviously) in courtroom, that would be proof that someone did X. If the cross examination was only “well, I never saw videos of you doing X” from someone who wasn’t there, that cross examination would fail, and X would be proven.

I can’t escape my training

I'm no lawyer, but just to play along with your story, usually in court you are trying to prove you didn't do it, not that you did. If someone confesses to a crime and other people agree then yes they would be proven guilty. But if someone says they have an alibi, and other people back it up, but there is no hard evidence, I don't think that definitely proves it.

 

[oatmella]

Who is ready for the PARTY!
https://twitter.com/usfigureskating/status/1093325381782781952?s=21

 

[Tavi...]

Well I would hope you don't have a criminal trial...

Have you seen the evidence?

No, I haven’t. I have been told he has. But I’m not his coach, nor am I at every one of his practices and training sessions, official or not. And that’s really my point. When you see a couple of practices or a video clip, you see a moment in time, not the whole story.

I don’t have a crystal ball, and it may well be that when his career is over, Jason will never have landed a fully-rotated 4S in official practice or in competition. But I really admire him for continuing to try to master something that’s clearly not easy for him, and I hope for his sake he succeeds.

 

[jersey1302]

does anyone know why Nathan is not competing here?

 

[el henry]

does anyone know why Nathan is not competing here?

He can only skip classes so many times. And he doesn’t need Four Continents

 

[Seren]

Brian has said in his interview with Jackie Wong that Jason has landed some “nice quads”. I don’t think he would lie- how consistent or how often remains to be seen but I think it’s safe to say he has landed one in practice at TCC.

 

[Mathman]

I'm no lawyer, ...

Me neither. But I can share the best lesson in the law that I ever had.

When I was a young pup one time I got pulled over by a country sheriff for speeding. He hauled me down to the courthouse, took off his sheriff hat and put on his justice of the peace hat and said,

"Now son, you were speedin'. How do you plead, guilty or not guilty? Now guilty, that means you done it. Not guilty, that means you ain't done it."

So I said, I reckon I done it; how much is the fine?

"How much you got?"

 

[el henry]

I'm no lawyer, but just to play along with your story, usually in court you are trying to prove you didn't do it, not that you did. If someone confesses to a crime and other people agree then yes they would be proven guilty. But if someone says they have an alibi, and other people back it up, but there is no hard evidence, I don't think that definitely proves it.

I’m not a criminal lawyer either, but you are right that there is a difference between “not guilty” and “innocent”. In a civil trial, if I put on five witnesses that say “I worked until 7:30” and the employer says “you don’t have any video to show you worked until 7:30”, and again way over simplified, if that’s the only defense, it won’t succeed, and the employees have proven they worked until 7:30.

You can interpret the evidence on Jason’s jumps how you want, obviously, that is your right, and that’s what you should do. But I don’t think anyone can say, well this is how I interpret the evidence and everyone must agree with that interpretation. Particularly when none of us (at least not me) are at TCC day in and day out to see for ourselves.

Now I am afraid I have hijacked this thread enough so I will stop with the analogies.

And we will see what we will see when the comp starts!

 

[sworddance21]

does anyone know why Nathan is not competing here?

He chose to stay at school.

 

[karne]

Given the tech controller, Vincent will not survive. I can see all his quads being call UR and maybe his 3A as well.

After watching his FS runthrough today it doesn't even need to be Shin Amano. I counted six and the only reason that happened was because he popped the quad flip attempt to a 1F. I also got three on yesterday's SP runthrough. It's blatantly obvious.

But, just to be correct, I'm pretty sure Shin is not the controller. He's the ATS.

 

[bobbob]

Jason's quad attempts at Four Continents
2S
4S<< (fall)
4S< (step out)
2S
1S
2S
4S< (fall)
4S< (fall)
4S<< (fall)
4S<< (two foot)
pop rate: 40% ur/dg/bv reduction rate: 100% fall rate: 40% success rate: 0%
Even if you ignore the URs, his success rate is 0.

Vincent's quad salchow attempts at the four continents:
4S
4S<
4S
4S<
4S<
4S
2S
4S
4S<
4S< (step)
4S
4S
4S (step)
pop rate: 8% ur/dg/bv reduction rate: 54% fall rate: 0% success rate: 46%
I agree these rotation calls are my own and debatable and not a technical panel deliberation. But however you cut it, they are much more rotated than Jason's--that is objective fact. Vincent lands several good ones (see 7:07 for example) and Jason lands none https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDyzN527EbQ.

Anyone who thinks Vincent's UR problem on the quads is worse than Jason's needs to get a grip and actually watch the videos. Jason's level of rotation is consistently worse. If you compare jump by jump, Vincent has much better rotation. (3A, 4S, 3Lz, etc.) If Jason had to try the same jump content as Vincent, believe me Jason would be much worse. But he doesn't, and that prevents him from contending at major competitions. (While Vincent does not contentd either right now, it is for a completely different reason.)