2022-23 US Pairs Figure Skating

[Jumping_Bean]

I have a hypothetical question. First, it seems reasonable for Alexa to retire, all things considered. Second, with Nate’s injuries, a retirement seems natural. That leaves us with Katie McBeath and Brandon Frazier. How ready are they to retire? Are there any indications that they might team up? Katie doesnt have the same skill level as Alexa, but not many pairs ladies do. I think she has shown a lot of promise, though. My impression at Nationals is that McB/B were hindered by Nate’s injuries. Brandon is a great partner and might be able to help further Katie’s development.
(I’d rather see Alexa and Brandon keep going, but throwing the idea out there.)

Height-wise it would definitely work as Alexa and Katie are almost the same height, and Katie is indeed an experienced pairs skater, even if she's no Alexa Knierim.

The thing is, especially with Brandon, I think sometimes you just find your perfect partner, and it's very difficult (but not impossible) to adjust to a new partner after that. Also, both Brandon and Katie are around 30, which is not the oldest for a skater to still be skating, particularly not in pairs, but it would not be unusual for them to decide to retire and move on with their lives if they wanted to either.

Independent of whatever they decide to do, I wish them all the best of luck and success, and most of all health. Figure skating is a very physically and mentally demanding sport after all.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

From personal experience (though not in figure skating), supporting each other or being a mentor to less experienced athletes is not even remotely in the same ballpark as being a coach. Apart from a difference in monetary aspects (as not all coaching positions are paid), there's a big difference in time and energy invested.

It's easy to give tips when athletes come to you with questions, and if your training times overlap, it's also often easy enough to catch certain issues and give advice (as well as just in general being used by your coaches as a demonstration tool for others to model their technique, etc. after), but actually coaching can't just be done as an afterthought or simultaneously with your own training. Or, I mean it can, but not really well.

Now, Nate and Brandon would be part of a much bigger coaching group, so it would be probably possible, if still difficult and stressful, to coach an elite team and at the same time keep up with an elite-level training plan, the question is more so would they want to add to their already hectic schedules? I could see Nate doing it for money, as he doesn't have as many opportunities to earn money in shows for example, and his season is not as packed as Brandon's would be, but Brandon makes good money with shows and competition results, and if his next season looked similar to this season, he would not have a lot of spare time to coach a team like Isabelle and Ryan.

And as for whether or not Isabelle and Ryan are direct competitors to Knierim/Frazier and McBeath/Bartholomay, that depends on what you consider as direct competitors. They'd likely all compete against each other at Sr Nats, and while K/F's scores are far removed from what Martins/Bedard are likely to achieve, McBeath/Bartholomay's are not. Ma/Be scored 152.33 in juniors, with easier content than they seem to be potentially capable of now (obviously, potential is one thing, the other is managing to deliver when it counts) and one less lift (around 6-8 points) less in the Free. Mc/Ba scored 172.74 at the highest last season, but their lowest score was just 147.29. Nate's back has unfortunately been a significant and recurring issue for them last season, and while it's never nice for someone to have to retire because of injuries, I do hope he does what's best for him and his health long-term, whether or not that ends in his retirement.

However you look at it is the way you're looking at, which is fine. These guys will eventually announce whether they're retiring or not.

Martins/ Bedard are just coming up from juniors. They have a lot to work on in terms of improving their skills. Lucky for them to be at a premier rink with other top-class athletes and coaches. They are still working on becoming an elite team, IMHO. They aren't quite there yet. And once again, even competing against Knierim/ Frazier and McBeath/ Bartholomay in the same event, Martins/ Bedard would not be beating either veteran team at this juncture. They are not direct rivals.

Splitting hairs about them being direct competitors makes no difference to your original belief that Nate and Brandon helping with coaching means they are retiring because they wouldn't help coach direct competitors. Moot point. As I said earlier, while both Nate and Brandon may well be retiring, I feel this is much more about Nate and Brandon stepping up in the absence of Todd Sand, who has a long recovery ahead of him. And in the absence of Chris Knierim, who has moved on to a new position in Illinois.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

Splitting hairs about them being direct competitors makes no difference to your original belief that Nate and Brandon helping with coaching means they are retiring because they wouldn't help coach direct competitors. Moot point. As I said earlier, while both Nate and Brandon may well be retiring, I feel this is much more about Nate and Brandon stepping up in the absence of Todd Sand, who has a long recovery ahead of him. And in the absence of Chris Knierim, who has moved on to a new position in Illinois.

Genuine question, but do you know of any case where a person still actively competing was officially one of the coaches of another person competing in the same discipline and age group? Because you are acting like this is a completely normal occurrence and I am crazy for even thinking that it would be unusual and unlikely.

I also didn't say anything about "helping with coaching means they are retiring because they wouldn't help coach direct competitors", I said that them coaching a team older than novices or juniors is likely an indication they've retired because it's unusual for anyone to coach someone they would compete in the same bracket in, completely independently of whether or not they are able to beat them. It was you who made it about whether or not Brandon and Nate would see Williams/Bedards as "direct rivals".

 

[GoneWithTheWind]

An interesting Twitter thread of key points from Daniel Tioumentsev's Instagram Live this morning, with this section particularly relevant to his pairs career:

 

[moonvine]

That’s so weird. “Maybe this season was my last but maybe I could go for another two Olympic cycles.” Those are…two very different things.

 

[NanaPat]

That’s so weird. “Maybe this season was my last but maybe I could go for another two Olympic cycles.” Those are…two very different things.

I think that was his point; everthing is possible!

 

[GoneWithTheWind]

An article about Jessica Pfund, who previously skated pairs for the US (and then Switzerland) until her retirement in 2021; this may help to explain the fairly sudden retirement shortly after their country switch was approved:

https://www.sportintegrity.ch/fr/news/une-patineuse-artistique-suspendue-pour-quatre-ans

The Swiss Disciplinary Chamber of Sport suspended Swiss-American figure skater Jessica Pfund for four years for the presence and use of amphetamines and cocaine and ordered her to pay a fine.

During a doping control in competition at the 2021 Elite Swiss Championships, figure skater Jessica Pfund tested positive for amphetamine, cocaine and its metabolites, substances prohibited in competition.

 

[moonvine]

An article about Jessica Pfund, who previously skated pairs for the US (and then Switzerland) until her retirement in 2021; this may help to explain the fairly sudden retirement shortly after their country switch was approved:

https://www.sportintegrity.ch/fr/news/une-patineuse-artistique-suspendue-pour-quatre-ans

Oh no.

 

[ladyjane]

Oh no.

The same

 

[skylark]

Chelsea Liu and Balazs Nagy doing a beautiful triple twist! https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cr_c...d&ig_rid=f592b0e2-4e4b-41ee-8b2f-3835dc21dd10

I'm not speculating about who they might compete for, if they indeed team up. (Balazs' caption is "we're back!") It looks like they're in Great Park arena.

I'm just very happy to see both these gorgeous pairs skaters having a chance to do what they love again. Safely ... it's been what, a year and a half since Chelsea's fall? It sounds like she was meticulous about recovery time.

 

[Diana Delafield]

Chelsea Liu and Balazs Nagy doing a beautiful triple twist! https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cr_c...d&ig_rid=f592b0e2-4e4b-41ee-8b2f-3835dc21dd10

I'm not speculating about who they might compete for, if they indeed team up. (Balazs' caption is "we're back!") It looks like they're in Great Park arena.

I'm just very happy to see both these gorgeous pairs skaters having a chance to do what they love again. Safely ... it's been what, a year and a half since Chelsea's fall? It sounds like she was meticulous about recovery time.

Wonderful height on that one! Selfishly, I always loved twists, big throws, and any lift where I couldn't see my partner. Always felt as if I'd briefly grown my own wings to fly. I hope she continues to fly safely like that!

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Oh no.

Hmmm, Pfund and Santillan both experienced a lot of injuries and physical pain over the course of their partnership. They never gave up. It could be usage for pain, I'm thinking, but I could be wrong. Regardless, very sad if this is the reason for them having to retire when they were so close to having a chance to skate at Euros and Worlds. In any case, I'm not gonna judge, not when the sport is so uber selective about who they protect, and who they punish and condemn surrounding doping and suspicion of doping, later proven false.

BTW, where are the freakin' team Olympic medals already?!!!

 

[4everchan]

Hmmm, Pfund and Santillan both experienced a lot of injuries and physical pain over the course of their partnership. They never gave up. It could be usage for pain, I'm thinking, but I could be wrong. Regardless, very sad if this is the reason for them having to retire when they were so close to having a chance to skate at Euros and Worlds. In any case, I'm not gonna judge, not when the sport is so uber selective about who they protect, and who they punish and condemn surrounding doping and suspicion of doping, later proven false.

BTW, where are the freakin' team Olympic medals already?!!!

Usage for pain? I am not buying this at all. Those drugs are party drugs not pain killers, and if truly, she needed some heavy pain killers, she needed to ask for a therapeutic exception. She didn't. Is she contesting? That says it al.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Wonderful height on that one! Selfishly, I always loved twists, big throws, and any lift where I couldn't see my partner. Always felt as if I'd briefly grown my own wings to fly. I hope she continues to fly safely like that!

That's definitely a huge, big, beautiful triple twist. Nagy has got muscular strength and power. Let's hope he's also able to throw Chelsea high enough for her to get around quickly on her throw jumps, and land them cleanly, without double-footing.

Usage for pain? I am not buying this at all. Those drugs are party drugs not pain killers, and if truly, she needed some heavy pain killers, she needed to ask for a therapeutic exception. She didn't. Is she contesting? That says it al.

Yeah well, I don't know anything about party drugs. Of course, I've heard of uppers and downers, and cocaine usage, but I have no first hand experience. Sad, once again to hear about this. And it's still true that Pfund/ Santillan both suffered through a lot of injuries, which slowed their career momentum.

 

[4everchan]

Yeah well, I don't know anything about party drugs. Of course, I've heard of uppers and downers, and cocaine usage, but I have no first hand experience. Sad, once again to hear about this. And it's still true that Pfund/ Santillan both suffered through a lot of injuries, which slowed their career momentum.

First hand experience is not needed to be aware of this... It's like you are insinuating I do these drugs LOL

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

First hand experience is not needed to be aware of this... It's like you are insinuating I do these drugs LOL

That's totally your interpretation of what I said. I expressed how I feel purely based on my personal experience, not yours. Things are what they are, and I'm sorry to hear about this. I'm a fan of Pfund/Santillan. I feel for all the obstacles, injuries and bad luck they had to overcome. I don't have enough information about the drug violation, and I'm not going to sit in judgment. Whatever happened, they made the decision to end their career, as a result. Whatever illegal drugs were detected, it did not involve an international incident that adversely affected other skaters at a major competition.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

To be honest, unfortunately, I don't think Jessica's positive drug test was due to being a "recreational party girl".

If a person with as much experience as Jessica is caught with a drug that is undetectable in blood and urine samples within three days, it's much more likely to be due to serious addiction (or actual doping, but cocaine has a lot of serious side-effects, so using it for doping is generally not a great idea) and not partying. Which skater parties less than three days before a competition? And during the work week, not even a weekend? It just seems so unlikely.

Jessica was also one of the young women who came forward about the abuse they suffered at the hands of Peter Oppegard. If there's one thing about abuse victims, it's that they are much more likely to end up being addicted to substances as adults, and many victims of prominent abusers have ended up dying from drug overdoses. Just last year, Briget Namiotka, who was the first person to speak out against John Coughlin, died from her own struggle with addiction as a result of the trauma she endured.

 

[4everchan]

To be honest, unfortunately, I don't think Jessica's positive drug test was due to being a "recreational party girl".

If a person with as much experience as Jessica is caught with a drug that is undetectable in blood and urine samples within three days, it's much more likely to be due to serious addiction (or actual doping, but cocaine has a lot of serious side-effects, so using it for doping is generally not a great idea) and not partying. Which skater parties less than three days before a competition? And during the work week, not even a weekend? It just seems so unlikely.

Jessica was also one of the young women who came forward about the abuse they suffered at the hands of Peter Oppegard. If there's one thing about abuse victims, it's that they are much more likely to end up being addicted to substances as adults, and many victims of prominent abusers have ended up dying from drug overdoses. Just last year, Briget Namiotka, who was the first person to speak out against John Coughlin, died from her own struggle with addiction as a result of the trauma she endured.

by mentioning "party drug" i wanted to make a point that amphetamine and cocaine is not commonly used for doping/pain killers as someone else mentioned that drug use may be linked to injuries... Now, if the injury was the soul/heart-breaking type, that's another topic altogether.

 

[GoneWithTheWind]

Alexa and Chris Knierim, with Timothy LeDuc and David Santee, have opened the Oakton Edge Skating Academy.

https://instagram.com/oakton_edge_skatingacademy?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==


For those that can't see Instagram, it's described as a "newly revised figure skating program by world renowned coaching staff".

Their first team is US junior pair Ashley Fletcher & Aaron Felderbaum.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

by mentioning "party drug" i wanted to make a point that amphetamine and cocaine is not commonly used for doping/pain killers as someone else mentioned that drug use may be linked to injuries... Now, if the injury was the soul/heart-breaking type, that's another topic altogether.

Oh, I wasn't trying to imply that you thought it was due to partying, but it's a sentiment I've seen expressed on other sites when it became known that Jessica tested positive for cocaine and I wanted to make it clear that it was unlikely only due to that.

Cocaine is indeed very rarely used for doping, just like most other illegal stimulants. Even among college athletes (who might come into contact with "party drugs" more often) only around 1% of them admit to having taken cocaine within the last 12 months. Granted, self-report studies often lead to lower numbers, but it's still going to be a pretty small percentage even factoring in the people who didn't admit to taking cocaine.

Cocaine is a hunger suppressant, but the side effects are so detrimental that nobody in their right mind would attempt to use it for weight loss, at least not among athletes. The same can't be said about modeling for example, where it is a genuine and widespread problem that agencies recommend their models take cocaine to stay skinny.

At the end of the day, we might never know what actually happened for Jessica to take cocaine, but I hope that she's going to be okay, no matter what. Cocaine is a very addictive substance and a very lethal one at that.