2023-24 Russian Grand Prix - Stage 4 - Kazan

[niks]

I think it's still Nats for Masha because she will remain above Kshetskaya in the standings.

That's good news. None the least because it may give us another chance to see Makar's "coaching"

I was just rewatching some of the replays and Makar's sending-off of Masha to the ice was so utterly sweet

 

[yume]

That's good news. None the least because it may give us another chance to see Makar's "coaching"

I was just rewatching some of the replays and Makar's sending-off of Masha to the ice was so utterly sweet

Yeah, more of that cute "coaching" please

 

[NaVi]

Kamila looked like a latter-day Tsurskaya and Sotskova. She has become plodding on the ice. Tall-ish skaters really get punished for not being fast. She looked lost and unsure in her movements and thus never really has any projection anywhere... not to the audience or to the judges. The program is just bad and I ultimately blame Eteri and DannyG for that.

I really don't get what Eteri and DannyG are trying to do with her aesthetically. Kamila is a beautiful girl and yet she looks terrible in her FS costume. Why would they even let that happen?

Their thought process seems to be. 1. Can't have a long dress in the long program since she's doing quads and perhaps because it drags and thus tiring. 2. Need to do something acrobatic/athletic/heroic instead of something that's more say enchanting/balletic/musical to fit her movement patterns. Kamila would do well to have music that challenges her to carry herself and move in a different way.

I find the creative processes in figure skating to be mind-boggling odd. There needs to be much more early external critical feedback of programs. Too often it seems that figure skaters are given a program and they'll grind with it no matter how good or bad it is. There's little point in having test skates if it's too late to change their program after a test skate. Some of the very top skaters who have in house choreographers really should be trying out 2 programs and throwing out one of them.

I used to be optimistic that Kamila could be around for a long time since she would always have the power to at least rotate a 4T. But she has problems in speed, projection, and how she carries herself that really need working on.

Maybe nobody else could have done better than Eteri... I find it hard to say that Plushenko would be an answer considering how plodding I find many of his skaters... and with the war and the trial it would be hard to go anywhere else... but it would be much easier to watch without feeling sad.

 

[icewhite]

I only watched Kamila's program right now and... so weird. I haven't paid much attention to her performances the past year, but it seemed to me that while she was not at her best and clearly worse than she used to be she was alright and rather strong and energetic, including yesterday, although that short is not that demanding. But today was terrible from start to finish. Everything was slow and laboured. It didn't look like pain from one fall or distraction, she had problems with everything, landing the jumps, flexibility in the spins, doing the step sequence, doing the choreo sequence. Maybe she just couldn't train much recently and this was the result of a lack of energy. Or maybe she has more stamina issues now than was thought.
But then in addition there was that weird sequence mistake, the way I understand it it differed from her previous layout but was planned like that???
Are they setting her up for failure? Are they just not interested anymore? Or is there another explanation? I don't get it.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

I didn't watch, i came only for pairs which was right after that. But the people here were saying that she was most likely in pain and shaken (if not injured) after the fall in the warm-up. She looked fine at test skates from what i can remember, and in the short. So we will see in her next competition.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

My three favourite young Russian pairs teams were competing here
It was so nice to finally see Mukhortova/Evgeniev and Chikmareva/Yanchenkov again this season.

Dima Evgeniev is normally very expressive but I thought he was uncharacteristically tense throughout (especially obvious in an Elvis programme). You could see visible relief in his face after the programme ended. I guess it might have something to do with the injury-related late start to their season - does anybody have more information on this?

I'm sad for Kadyrova/Kolesov It looked like Yasmina got too close to the barrier on the SBS 3S and the first fall there seems to have shaken her up, but there were also other errors yesterday too. It was good to see Valeri and the coaches doing their best to comfort her. They were doing quite well at test skates and their first stage, I think they might just be a bit tired here. Hope they get a good rest before their next event.

 

[niks]

The test was positive. Acknowledging that immediately and dealing with it as per proper procedure, eating a quick penalty would have sped up everything, and so it's their fault by waving the red flag in front of the bull and dragging out the matters to the point of some ideological struggle that keeps us from seeing the Russians after the IOC said it's up to individual sport.

Them complaining about ISU is hilarious in that light. Valieva is so, so, so not worth it, and her coach is even less so. There are many, many, many wonderful women in Russia. Plenty of great coaches. Schools.

But because of her all of them suffer and so are men, pairs and dance. So effing stupid it hurts.

Oh dear, I really don't wanna get into this but this take on things is so short-sighted that oh well, here we go...

Russia and Russian Fed are not defending Kamila. Not really. They are defending an Olympic Team Gold medal which is the only thing they really care about. The bare truth is that never mind what the test results were, if those results had been delivered in a timely manner, none of this would have happened. RusFed would have simply take Kamila out of the Olympic team, replace her by any other girl, get the exact same results (Anna, Sasha or Russian skater number 3 would have easily won the women part of the team event anyway), get the medal and be done with it. They would not have fought for Kamila for one second.

So if you are angry that this case has been dragged on, well, the root cause of that is not Kamila herself, or the doping itself, but the simple fact that the results were delivered like with a 2-months delay and just the very day after the team event. Come on now, even if you are dead set on blaming Kamila for everything, you can't possibly deny that something very iffy went on behind such a timing. And then of course, RusFed, like any other (big) Fed would have done, were left to try and defend that gold medal by any means necessary. Kamila is just a pawn in all of this and she was actually left to fence quite for herself at least at the very beginning of it.

Not that the ban has (allegedly) anything to do with this, not according to ISU's official posture on starting and keeping it. Not that therefore, even once this gets finally resolved, ISU would be officially in any pressure to get the ban solved as well (they can easily claim they are completly uncorrelated things because, again, that's their official position). But so you can at least place your anger where it actually belongs.

And I'll just leave it here because I'm already regretting having been dragged into this. I know very well this kind of discussions get us nowhere

 

[yume]

Do we finally know if the double sequence was planned or it was Kamila who mixed up her jumping passes?

Sequences were not so popular before the rule change about them. Coaches should be more careful and read the rules entirely. It was double sequence in this comp, last comp it was an invalidated last jumping pass because of lack of 2A in the free skate (which was planned in sequence but the skater failed to jump it). It's dangerous for layouts with quads because the only 2A is now mainly in sequence.

 

[Skating91]

Kamila looked like a latter-day Tsurskaya and Sotskova. She has become plodding on the ice. Tall-ish skaters really get punished for not being fast. She looked lost and unsure in her movements and thus never really has any projection anywhere... not to the audience or to the judges. The program is just bad and I ultimately blame Eteri and DannyG for that.

I really don't get what Eteri and DannyG are trying to do with her aesthetically. Kamila is a beautiful girl and yet she looks terrible in her FS costume. Why would they even let that happen?

Their thought process seems to be. 1. Can't have a long dress in the long program since she's doing quads and perhaps because it drags and thus tiring. 2. Need to do something acrobatic/athletic/heroic instead of something that's more say enchanting/balletic/musical to fit her movement patterns. Kamila would do well to have music that challenges her to carry herself and move in a different way.

I find the creative processes in figure skating to be mind-boggling odd. There needs to be much more early external critical feedback of programs. Too often it seems that figure skaters are given a program and they'll grind with it no matter how good or bad it is. There's little point in having test skates if it's too late to change their program after a test skate. Some of the very top skaters who have in house choreographers really should be trying out 2 programs and throwing out one of them.

I used to be optimistic that Kamila could be around for a long time since she would always have the power to at least rotate a 4T. But she has problems in speed, projection, and how she carries herself that really need working on.

Maybe nobody else could have done better than Eteri... I find it hard to say that Plushenko would be an answer considering how plodding I find many of his skaters... and with the war and the trial it would be hard to go anywhere else... but it would be much easier to watch without feeling sad.

I don't think you can write her off after one bad skate. She looked like she was on the verge of a nervous breakdown when she fell in the warm up. You cannot underestimate the psychological distress of what she goes through, then she has pressure to restore the quad, in front of a home crowd. If you're under extreme stress as Kamila clearly was during the warm up, the muscles are not going to work properly, she will fatigue quicker, decision making is hindered.

She did a better job of rotating her quad than Sadkova or Gorbacheva. She must be 15kg heavier than either of them. Her quad is basically where it was one year ago and she managed to restore it for the jump tournament. She had three attempts at Kazan last year and fell the same way.

Her base value was 60 with the 3Lz downgraded and 3T removed. The bronze medalist at the Olympics had a base value of 62. She rotated her jumps apart from the quad. Some of the jumps weren't perfectly controlled and got close to the boards, but no worse if not better than what medalists at a world level are doing in other competitions I have watched in recent weeks. She doesn't crawl to a stop when jumping or has some fundamental technique issue.

Yes, the sequence was cancelled, but remember she did complete a 3-3 with a 2A stuck on the end in the second half of her performance.

After the Kazan stage last year something happened with her free program. In Kazan she performed it perfectly, no issues with intricate movement, agile. After that restored her quad but the free program became relatively sloppy and the Russian championship and GP final. Either she reached a tipping point with her size and muscle for any intricate movement, maybe she stopped running through the free program because she will only ever perform it 4 times at domestic competitions before never performing it again (unlike the short program which will be used repeatedly at shows), could be simply a stamina issue, maybe there is some kind of vision issue she has which would affect co-ordination.

In summary, she has gone through a difficult puberty still had a 3-3 in the second half of the program, her quad attempt was closer to being landed than the two girls who have yet to go through body changes. Kamila's nearly 18 I don't think she will change much more she just needs to adapt now. She can get high 70's in her short program with no risk, so this is a great platform for her to build on.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

Do we finally know if the double sequence was planned or it was Kamila who mixed up her jumping passes?

Sequences were not so popular before the rule change about them. Coaches should be more careful and read the rules entirely. It was double sequence in this comp, last comp it was an invalidated last jumping pass because of lack of 2A in the free skate (which was planned in sequence but the skater failed to jump it). It's dangerous for layouts with quads because the only 2A is now mainly in sequence.

The double sequence was planned, we knew that from the beginning as planned program content was shown during the warm-up.

As for the case of the skater with an invalid jumping pass, that's not really the same situation, as he'd have had no issues if he had gone clean, while Kamila's layout would have always led to an invalid jumping pass. Was it still a needlessly risky layout choice? Yes, but technically no more than putting all three combos into the second half of the program, or the combination onto the second repetition of a triple/quad.

 

[Skating91]

Do we finally know if the double sequence was planned or it was Kamila who mixed up her jumping passes?

Sequences were not so popular before the rule change about them. Coaches should be more careful and read the rules entirely. It was double sequence in this comp, last comp it was an invalidated last jumping pass because of lack of 2A in the free skate (which was planned in sequence but the skater failed to jump it). It's dangerous for layouts with quads because the only 2A is now mainly in sequence.

It was in the planned content sheet to have two sequences. Do they ever do that I haven't noticed?

 

[Skating91]

Dudakov, Eteri, Gleich sitting in the kiss and cry with Kamila really did look like three bad gamblers at a blackjack table. The dealer had a 6, they doubled on 10, pull a 5, dealer pulls an ace and sits on the soft 17. They're arguing with the dealer I thought you had to hit on a soft 17. Sorry not at this table ma'am. That would have been a long ride back to Moscow.

 

[yume]

It was in the planned content sheet to have two sequences. Do they ever do that I haven't noticed?

Seems to me that it was the first time. Since it was in the planned content sheet, nobody could tell them that there was a forbidden combo?

The double sequence was planned, we knew that from the beginning as planned program content was shown during the warm-up.

As for the case of the skater with an invalid jumping pass, that's not really the same situation, as he'd have had no issues if he had gone clean, while Kamila's layout would have always led to an invalid jumping pass. Was it still a needlessly risky layout choice? Yes, but technically no more than putting all three combos into the second half of the program, or the combination onto the second repetition of a triple/quad.

Yeah, not the same situation. I was just pointing that a sequence can be problematic in some layouts.

 

[Azikin]

I don't think you can write her off after one bad skate.

No you can't, she was great in the SP. She obviously got hurt in the warm up before free program. To compare her to "a latter-day Tsurskaya and Sotskova" is laughable.

 

[lariko]

She probably got injured in warm-up as she was in visible pain during and after her skate. Watch her short if you want to see her skate faster, have prettier jumps and show her flexibility.
Thinking that she shouldn't be competing is one thing but speaking as if she suddenly became a bad skater is just dishonesty.
And her outfits are not vulgar imo.

No, thanks. I refuse to watch that woman who cost Russian skating far too much and represents a stain on its rep for years to come. Disgusting.

 

[lariko]

Russia and Russian Fed are not defending Kamila. Not really. They are defending an Olympic Team Gold medal which is the only thing they really care about. The bare truth is that never mind what the test results were, if those results had been delivered in a timely manner, none of this would have happened. RusFed would have simply take Kamila out of the Olympic team, replace her by any other girl, get the exact same results (Anna, Sasha or Russian skater number 3 would have easily won the women part of the team event anyway), get the medal and be done with it. They would not have fought for Kamila for one second.

They should have put her on the first plane home and decided the fate of Olympic team medal quietly, later on without beating their chests and using the system like clowns. The way they acted with her making her into a symbol of Russian Cheating and Lying Better Than Anyone Else, passionately defending the case that didn't hold water.

That's the root cause that put the entire Russian skating into dog house, not lab's timing. Which, by the way, was also their fault becaus not paying for rush TAT for an obvious Olympic team member was inexcusable.

Looking at timing and searching for conspiracy in it is a distraction from the root cause. From mounting consequences of it. Russian Skating they lost far, far more than that one Olympic gold medal by endlessly being in the wrong and doubling down on it. ISU is simply doing the right thing insisting on accountability and fairness. Russians are dodging it and trying to play a victim? Yikes. Oh, that poor teenage girl who was doped by her abusive coaches but is actually a saint...let's plaster her on the posters all over Russia as a nqtional heroine and keep calling her Olympic Champion. Lol.

Every official was removed from ISU and the relationships are damaged so much that unlike other sports that managed to strike a deal with other sports after IOC ruled that it was possible, FS where Russians should have been able to do the same now is closed to all their athletes.

By acting the way they acted, they lost more OG medals come next Olympics to save what they should have sacrificed for the long gain.

Having Valieva continue to skate all this time is a wrong signaling if they ever at all held their other athletes' interest at heart. Period. Short-sighted and arrogant, and so, so, so stupid it hurts. Worse, it hurt all the skaters and they force them to close ranks. This is as clear case of pride in a wrong thing crossing into hubris and destroying everything as there ever was. Should be in textbooks. With Valieva on the cover. How Hubris Can Ruin You. Or Don't Fight Lost Battles till You Lose Everything.

I mean, you would have thought Gorshkov's death made them do some soul searching, with how symbolic it was, but nope, not even that.

I hope I see reckoning in my lifetime for this, starting with Valieva and going up.

 

[yume]

No, thanks. I refuse to watch that woman who cost Russian skating far too much and represents a stain on its rep for years to come. Disgusting.

Wow.

 

[lariko]

Wow.

Nothing but truth.

 

[yume]

Nothing but truth.

It may be the truth, your truth, but allow me to be shocked by the way you talk about it.

 

[lariko]

It may be the truth, your truth, but allow me to be shocked by the way you talk about it.

Be my guest. Lol, while you can. I am sure moderation is on the way. But if it's going to be a ban, I am okay with it. It's been two years. I can't grit my teeth in silence.