2024-25 Japanese Men's Figure Skating

[cohkaix]

JSF's training camp for Jr. skaters is underway. The invited skaters include:

<Group A>
Rio Nakata
Shunsuke Nakamura (interestingly, ShunShun is listed in Sr. category in most of the domestic summer competitions. So we'll see if he's doing JGP for the international competitions).
Haru Kakiuchi
Daiya Ebihara
Sena Takahashi
Taiga Nishigo

 

[TeamGubanova]

JSF's training camp for Jr. skaters is underway. The invited skaters include:

<Group A>
Rio Nakata
Shunsuke Nakamura (interestingly, ShunShun is listed in Sr. category in most of the domestic summer competitions. So we'll see if he's doing JGP for the international competitions).
Haru Kakiuchi
Daiya Ebihara
Sena Takahashi
Taiga Nishigo

I thot shun shun aged out

 

[cohkaix]

I thot shun shun aged out

Actually, according to the JGP Riga's entry list, he enters the Jr. men. So it's likely he's doing the internation-Jr./national-Sr. mode.

 

[KiraraChin]

Japanese Men pre-GP series international assignments:

- Asia Trophy (2-6 September): Tatsuya Tsuboi and Nozomu Yoshioka
- Lombardia Trophy (13-15 September): Yuma Kagiyama, Kat Miura and Shun Sato
- Nebelhorn Trophy (19-21 September): Sota Yamamoto

 

[Jumping_Bean]

Daiya Ebihara has been removed from the JGP Solidarity Cup and Taiga Nishino removed from the substitute list, so he likely has lost his second assignment as well.

 

[skim1001]

Is JSF that broke?? Like, what good does robbing your promising skaters valuable international experience do anyway?

 

[Jumping_Bean]

Is JSF that broke?? Like, what good does robbing your promising skaters valuable international experience do anyway?

Even if they are, they could at least allow skaters to try and pay their own way, even through crowdfunding or something similar.

It's obviously far from ideal, and would just increase the inequality among skaters coming from wealthy and not-so-wealthy backgrounds, but it would at least leave a little bit of a chance for the skaters instead of this.

 

[lileychristie]

Even if they are, they could at least allow skaters to try and pay their own way, even through crowdfunding or something similar.

It's obviously far from ideal, and would just increase the inequality among skaters coming from wealthy and not-so-wealthy backgrounds, but it would at least leave a little bit of a chance for the skaters instead of this.

I've been wondering about this for a while - not just JGP but also Challengers & Senior B, if there are available slots for your country can you just pay your own way if your fed won't send you?

Like is there a rule stating that it must be the fed registering you to the competition?

I find it a bit weird, for other fields like other sports, music, science etc as far as I know most participants can just register themselves in international competitions. And many parents will beg, steal, borrow, ANYTHING to raise money to give their children these opportunities.

As for seniors, established skaters like Kazuki should be able to raise enough through crowdfunding...

 

[Jumping_Bean]

I've been wondering about this for a while - not just JGP but also Challengers & Senior B, if there are available slots for your country can you just pay your own way if your fed won't send you?

Like is there a rule stating that it must be the fed registering you to the competition?

Skaters have to be entered by the ISU member (see Rule 109 on page 113 of the ISU constitution).

Some federations seem to be quite willing to follow the lead of their skaters as long as they fund themselves (Chinese fed, Korean fed, US fed), while others keep tight control of entries even though they are not (fully) funding the skaters in question

 

[KiraraChin]

I've been wondering about this for a while - not just JGP but also Challengers & Senior B, if there are available slots for your country can you just pay your own way if your fed won't send you?

Like is there a rule stating that it must be the fed registering you to the competition?

I find it a bit weird, for other fields like other sports, music, science etc as far as I know most participants can just register themselves in international competitions. And many parents will beg, steal, borrow, ANYTHING to raise money to give their children these opportunities.

As for seniors, established skaters like Kazuki should be able to raise enough through crowdfunding...

You're 100% right, and a skater like Kazuki with his range of sponsors/merch/ice shows probably wouldn't even need fundraising at this point.

It seems more like a political choice by the fed; almost like a harsh punishment for not fulfilling expectations/not having the right connections.

 

[Leocadia]

Daiya Ebihara has been removed from the JGP Solidarity Cup and Taiga Nishino removed from the substitute list, so he likely has lost his second assignment as well.

It seems really harsh, especially when Daiya’s score was quite good, and could have placed him 4th or perhaps even higher in a different field.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

It seems really harsh, especially when Daiya’s score was quite good, and could have placed him 4th or perhaps even higher in a different field.

Both Daiya's and Taiga's scores would have placed fourth at JGP Riga the week before

Even worse, Daiya tweeted about how thankful he was for the support he received and how he wants to do even better at his next assignment literal minutes before the JGP entries were updated

 

[lileychristie]

Daiya Ebihara has been removed from the JGP Solidarity Cup and Taiga Nishino removed from the substitute list, so he likely has lost his second assignment as well.

It seems really harsh, especially when Daiya’s score was quite good, and could have placed him 4th or perhaps even higher in a different field.

Holy moly, Taiga is actually entered for JGP Wuxi!!!

https://results.isu.org/events/jgpchn2024_JuniorMen.htm

And Daiya is there as first substitute.

Not sure why Taiga got a 2nd one and not Daiya... I'm so happy for Taiga but I feel bad for Daiya

Edit: I guess JSF is waiting to see how Haru does in Bangkok before deciding on Ljubljana - Haru is entered there with Daiya as 1st sub. But still, I'm pretty sure Japan actually have enough slots for both to do a 2nd assignment...

 

[rabidline]

I'm wondering if JSF is approaching the junior boys differently than the junior girls because of a different strategy (and saving money ofc lol).

Max out the junior girls now because there is an abundance of them and also because they're trying to build international reputation when the girls are /still/ consistent with their jumps and not that injured yet, which is not going to be a given once they hit puberty and their bodies started growing.

Be more selective with the junior boys to not push them too hard and avoid injuries before they started growing and (in most boys cases) growing means their difficult jumps will stabilize.

So basically it's not as urgent to push the boys now when they have potential to be more stable as they grow older, while the girls should be pushed now to get reputational points before they lose their jumps.

And considering the senior field as well. I don't think any of the junior men is a threat to the senior men as it is right now in Japan, while a junior girl on her best day can beat everyone except Kaori.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

Holy moly, Taiga is actually entered for JGP Wuxi!!!

https://results.isu.org/events/jgpchn2024_JuniorMen.htm

And Daiya is there as first substitute.

The entry deadline for JGP Wuxi was before the end of the competition, so the entries don't reflect decisions made on the basis of the results of JGP Czech Skate.

I'm fully expecting JSF to remove Taiga (and Yamashita / Nagata from JGP Ljubljana Cup) in the next few weeks.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

I'm wondering if JSF is approaching the junior boys differently than the junior girls because of a different strategy (and saving money ofc lol).

Max out the junior girls now because there is an abundance of them and also because they're trying to build international reputation when the girls are /still/ consistent with their jumps and not that injured yet, which is not going to be a given once they hit puberty and their bodies started growing.

Be more selective with the junior boys to not push them too hard and avoid injuries before they started growing and (in most boys cases) growing means their difficult jumps will stabilize.

So basically it's not as urgent to push the boys now when they have potential to be more stable as they grow older, while the girls should be pushed now to get reputational points before they lose their jumps.

And considering the senior field as well. I don't think any of the junior men is a threat to the senior men as it is right now in Japan, while a junior girl on her best day can beat everyone except Kaori.

Except that JSF isn't approaching the boys much differently than the girls, they're not even treating the Ice Dancers differently (which is extremely unwise, as Ice Dance is heavily reliant on reputation and judges getting to see the teams internationally) - If you don't place in the top 4, your second spot is gone.

If that is the pressure you put your boys under, it's not going to lead them to push less hard, but the exact opposite. Despite going through puberty, they are now expected to be perfectly stable with a decently high difficulty from a young age in order to keep their international assignments. Reputation might be able to be built at a later point, but lost competition experience cannot be regained.

 

[rabidline]

Except that JSF isn't approaching the boys much differently than the girls, they're not even treating the Ice Dancers differently (which is extremely unwise, as Ice Dance is heavily reliant on reputation and judges getting to see the teams internationally) - If you don't place in the top 4, your second spot is gone.

If that is the pressure you put your boys under, it's not going to lead them to push less hard, but the exact opposite. Despite going through puberty, they are now expected to be perfectly stable with a decently high difficulty from a young age in order to keep their international assignments. Reputation might be able to be built at a later point, but lost competition experience cannot be regained.

But the approach is different...? Or am I mistaken? I thought JSF maxed out their entries for the junior girls in the JGP, and when one girl is taken off an assignment, another junior girl substituted them. While JSF is not maxing out their entries for the junior boys in the first place, and right now doesn't seem to be in a hurry to replace the entries for junior boys. I do agree that the ice dance thing is dumb.

I do agree that they will lose competition experience (which they already are at a disadvantage of since Japan's COVID days where they just don't send people anywhere unless they really have to). But I also think that it encourages the junior boys (and their coaches) to think about their long term prospect, and not just forcing themselves to do 1-2 JGP competitions. If they want to come back next season and get to the JGP, they have to learn how to physically condition themselves better and avoid injuries.

 

[KiraraChin]

But the approach is different...? Or am I mistaken? I thought JSF maxed out their entries for the junior girls in the JGP, and when one girl is taken off an assignment, another junior girl substituted them. While JSF is not maxing out their entries for the junior boys in the first place, and right now doesn't seem to be in a hurry to replace the entries for junior boys. I do agree that the ice dance thing is dumb.

I do agree that they will lose competition experience (which they already are at a disadvantage of since Japan's COVID days where they just don't send people anywhere unless they really have to). But I also think that it encourages the junior boys (and their coaches) to think about their long term prospect, and not just forcing themselves to do 1-2 JGP competitions. If they want to come back next season and get to the JGP, they have to learn how to physically condition themselves better and avoid injuries.

OR it can lead to them trying to get quads faster so they can get these assignments... If that's the strategy, it can backfire spectacularly - Rio Nakata is already doing too many quads for my taste...

 

[Jumping_Bean]

I'm fully expecting JSF to remove Taiga (and Yamashita / Nagata from JGP Ljubljana Cup) in the next few weeks.

Taiga has now indeed been withdrawn. Yamashita/Nagata are still on the entry list (and I'm hoping against hope they will stay on that list).

But the approach is different...? Or am I mistaken? I thought JSF maxed out their entries for the junior girls in the JGP, and when one girl is taken off an assignment, another junior girl substituted them. While JSF is not maxing out their entries for the junior boys in the first place, and right now doesn't seem to be in a hurry to replace the entries for junior boys. I do agree that the ice dance thing is dumb.

It's the result of the same strategy applied to two fields of very different depth and size - Internationally and nationally.

The average score to place 4th at a JGP in men's last season was 193.66, a score surpassed by 9 Japanese Junior-eligible Men this or last season. JSF originally planned to give up two of their fourteen spots, so out of those 9 men, six would have been given 2 assignments, and considering two of these 9 guys have not scored above 160 and one of them hasn't competed yet this season, that doesn't seem too weird if a fourth place standard has been set.

Compared to that, the average 4th place score for Junior women was 173.52. Excluding Kinyau, Hana and Ayumi Shibayama (for obvious reasons), there are 9 Junior skaters who have scored above that, 7 of them this season already (Ikura came very close as well). Even using a fourth-place standard, 14 places seem to be needed here.

But I also think that it encourages the junior boys (and their coaches) to think about their long term prospect, and not just forcing themselves to do 1-2 JGP competitions. If they want to come back next season and get to the JGP, they have to learn how to physically condition themselves better and avoid injuries.

I don't really think it will work out like that. In fact, with the political landscape in Japanese skating, skaters will feel more pressure if their assignments are taken away after a single "not-so-perfect" competition. If they aren't sent out as Juniors, and can't build a reputation (nationally and internationally) they probably won't be as Seniors either.

I think it will be likely for Jr men to start training 3As or quads even earlier - Otherwise, they have no chance to be sent out at 13 or 14 or even 15.
On the other hand, it's possible that the older, more established Juniors with a stable 3A will now put off learning a quad - Either until they inevitably start to be passed by other countries' skaters (see for example how close Patrick Blackwell came to beating Minkyu Seo, who even has the reputational backing of a Jr World Champion) or until they turn Senior and suddenly are completely uncompetitive.

 

[tsuyoboogie]

Even if they are, they could at least allow skaters to try and pay their own way, even through crowdfunding or something similar.

It's obviously far from ideal, and would just increase the inequality among skaters coming from wealthy and not-so-wealthy backgrounds, but it would at least leave a little bit of a chance for the skaters instead of this.

After learning of Daiya and SumiIbu losing their 2nd JGPs, I started thinking about crowdfunding too...particularly for the Juniors, especially the Junior Dance teams
There is a catch though~
Because federation funding for Ice Dance was minimal, about 6~7 years ago, quite a few teams began crowdfunding to help with their expenses.
After seeing so many teams successfully campaign, JSF actually put out a statement reminding their athletes that iirc, 20% of proceeds earned from crowdfunding must be handed over to the federation.
Unsure if this is still the case, but as a fan who has donated to multiple Dance teams in the past (Ayano Sasaki / Yoshimitsu Ikeda most recently), it's frustrating to know that JSF is earning money off of skaters / teams they refuse to invest in.
That said, if and when possible, I'm more than willing to help skaters who show potential but are short on resources.

About the Japanese Junior Men~
A few years back, it seemed only boys with at least a 3A would be considered for a JGP.
The last couple of seasons this expectation was relaxed a bit.
This season however, it appears that only boys attempting both 3A and quad jump(s) were listed.
Since budget is tight and notably more Pair / Dance teams were given assignments, seems JSF made the decision to send only boys with guaranteed podium potential.

Also just want to shout out EbiDaiya~ (likely Taiga's main rival domestically)
At the time Taiga was about to skate his FS, Daiya already knew if Taiga placed above him, there was a good chance he would lose his 2nd JGP assignment.
With that knowledge, he remained Taiga's loudest cheerleader from before the program started, through all the unfortunate mistakes, until the very end.
When Taiga was taking his bows, Daiya looked sad but reassuring, nodding and acknowledging a good fight...like a supportive big brother and senpai would do.