Replay Lounge 2025-26 Grand Prix Final

[Blades of Passion]

how do we propose to codify, to everyone's satisfaction, the aspects of figure skating that really matter?

There needs to be a huge judging overhaul, wherein judges are taught about what good choreography and interpretation is even supposed to be, and then instructed to take deductions for every instance of lackluster presentation within a program. The majority of spins and footwork and "transitions" performed in programs these days have little/nothing to do with the music or a real artistic purpose. That should be a deduction. Every movement a skater does, a judge should be thinking "does this look as good as it ideally could? does it add something to the overall concept of the program? does it bring out the spirit of the music"?

If we stay with the current PCS increments, there are 40 scores judges can give (10 at max, dropping by increments of .25), and across the "performance" and "composition" categories that means there are actually 80 "artistic components" in every program. So there is certainly room to deduct for every instance within a program where a skater is displaying a significant lack of expression, or doing something that doesn't go with the music, or has non-optimal form.

As a sample, I will judge Ilia Malinin's 2025 GPF LP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-X8w-RAykfI

0:50 - weak arm position (c), expression does not properly interpret the music (p)
0:57 - weak arm position (c)
1:28 - failure to express the music (p)
1:48 - failure to express the music (p)
2:05 - ugly position (c), no purpose with the music (c)
2:16 - lack of extension (c), failure to express the music (p)
2:34 - movement has no choreographic value (c), failure to express the music (p)
3:31 - failure to express the music (p)
4:14 - lackluster jump in spin and subsequent position do not go with the music (c)
4:20 - lack of extension (c)
4:34 - spin exit is ineffective and serves no purpose (c)

So he gets 8.5 for performance, 7.75 for composition.

4 deductions within the footwork sequence (expected, as footwork sequences are artistically awful these days and go on for so long), 4 deductions related to spins, and 7 other deductions throughout the performance.

 

[4everchan]

And how can a judge realistically assess this in real time and keep track of everything while looking at the elements themselves ?
Is that possible ? Should some judges only do GOE and others only PCS ? Is every mistake worth the same kind of deduction ? What about the general feeling of a performance/composition. I judge music competitions/exams and if we were to deduct points for every mistake, that would just be crazy there are bigger mistakes, and there is also a general, global level. I feel this sort of proposal is looking at things locally and not globally and would probably upset fans just as much. Who would notice In the audience a few weak arm positions or bad timing with the music if the general mood of the music was portrayed (not talking here about the example given above) ?

I am not so sure this would work very well but that's just my opinion.

 

[yfan1]

Every movement a skater does, a judge should be thinking "does this look as good as it ideally could? does it add something to the overall concept of the program? does it bring out the spirit of the music"?

...

0:50 - weak arm position (c), expression does not properly interpret the music (p)
0:57 - weak arm position (c)
1:28 - failure to express the music (p)
1:48 - failure to express the music (p)
2:05 - ugly position (c), no purpose with the music (c)
2:16 - lack of extension (c), failure to express the music (p)
2:34 - movement has no choreographic value (c), failure to express the music (p)
3:31 - failure to express the music (p)
4:14 - lackluster jump in spin and subsequent position do not go with the music (c)
4:20 - lack of extension (c)
4:34 - spin exit is ineffective and serves no purpose (c)

So he gets 8.5 for performance, 7.75 for composition.

I'm fairly sure Mathman is saying that all these are subjective, and that it'd be hard to codify it. No matter how much training someone's been given.

While I won't say it's *impossible* for the judges to do what you described, it is certainly a tall order, especially seeing how there is one more component still.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Should some judges only do GOE and others only PCS ?

Yes, it's been my opinion for over a decade that judges should be split between Tech Elements and PCS. The tech element judges should collectively decide the calls and give GOE. We currently have 9 "regular" judges and 3 tech panel judges at competitions, it would instead become 7 for Tech Elements and 5 for PCS.

And with regards to GOE, there needs to be better training about form, rhythm, and musicality. The artistic aspect is present on both sides, although it's a bigger part of assessing PCS than it is the technical elements.

And how can a judge realistically assess this in real time and keep track of everything while looking at the elements themselves ?

It's definitely possible, as artistry is part of tech elements anyway (a judge who recognizes that a spin position is bad and has nothing to do with the music should be deducting it on both PCS and GOE), and programs frequently have no tech elements happening at a given point in time.

That said, I wouldn't trust most people to do it, and it's much cleaner anyway to have one set of judges looking specifically at all the details of the technical elements, and then the other set of judges assessing the program as a whole.

What your question really shows is how ineffective the judges have been. How indeed are they coming up with an accurate PCS score, which can be assigned in 100's of different permutations, while also judging technical elements? The answer is they haven't been.

Who would notice a few weak arm positions or bad timing with the music if the general mood of the music was portrayed (not talking here about the example given above)? What about the general feeling of a performance/composition.

Whoever is looking for those details and feels something was missing would notice. After all, that's generally the difference between a "9.5" program and a "10.0" program.

Judges should be able to actively track their scores for every performance though. Ultimately what really matters is how each performance stacks up in comparison with another. The exercise of deducting every instance of weak artistry within a program is a good way to establish a base score, and then from there a bit of modification can be made if something feels wrong. If a judge has a strong feeling that performance A was better than performance B, then that's ultimately what the score should reflect.

I'm fairly sure Mathman is saying that all these are subjective

But it's currently far more subjective, with very little training given to judges about artistry and no actual process on how to judge things. Just numbers being made up on a whim.

At least with an established standard, skaters will get more serious about actively trying to perform and give emotion and do movement that looks good and has a real personality, not just throwing things in to gain a level or "transitions brownie points". We also need better rules about footwork/spins levels and more options for what can be included in a program, that will further help to make programs more interesting and beautiful, but without knowledgeable judges who are actually cracking down on artistic flaws, then the sport will remain in A.I.-like state.

 

[yfan1]

But it's currently far more subjective, with very little training given to judges about artistry and no actual process on how to judge things.

I think if you presented this as deductions on form instead of "artistry" and "art", you'd probably get more agreement.

We also need better rules about footwork/spins levels and more options for what can be included in a program,

Well I've been arguing about equal on the other thread.

that will further help to make programs more interesting and beautiful, but without knowledgeable judges who are actually cracking down on artistic flaws, then the sport will remain in A.I.-like state.

You could as an example take a program you'd score "9.5" and tell us why it's not a "10". I'm guessing you won't say "the arm here wasn't as good as it could have been"?

 

[Mathman]

There needs to be a huge judging overhaul, wherein judges are taught about what good choreography and interpretation is even supposed to be...

Who teaches the teachers?

 

[Skating91]

Yep, Alysa does get away with these UR calls. In fact, Daniel Grassl, in his fp had a clear Q and a UR seen in the slo-mo, which Hanretty commented on politely. But there were zero reviews for Grassl in the fp. In Grassl's case, it likely would not have changed the result outcome. But the judges are so fallible, obviously.

In Alysa's case, she's very well-liked and appreciated for her moxie and her determined competitive efforts. A lot of her career has been about ignoring her URs. She is, of course, very delightful and so chill in how she approaches competition.

Yes, they let her get away with the 3Lo in the short program as addressed I will just link it again (not for you but anyone else reading this)

But in the free skate, got another 'get out of jail free card' by just meekly giving her a q on the 3T which was clearly an underrotation, and ignoring the q on the 3Lz (hopefully the gif loads properly sometimes they don't)

Sorry, but there are many skaters that smile and conduct themselves properly, but don't get anything like these freebies from the judge.

Go back to World's this year there were like 4-5 of these jumps that weren't called in Liu's programs, it's all in there with evidence.

I know that if Gubanova or Samodelkina landed a 3T like that, they would be hit with an underrotation EVERY SINGLE TIME, and even hit with an underrotation on the 3Lz (I think it was World's were they hit Samo with an underrotation that was more rotated than Liu's 3Lz above). It's not even just the missed calls, but jumps that aren't q's but landing maybe 70 degrees short and getting huge GOE on everything.

It's simply not fair. I don't care about her 'moxie' it's irrelevant otherwise it is no longer a sport.

Plus, of course she's relaxed when she goes out there, as long as she stays on her feet she's getting positive GOE, and if kind of clean maximum GOE. Whereas I watch Gubanova it's like she's facing a firing squad when she goes out there because they will hit her if anything is slightly underrotated.

The Grassl treatment is strange they are aware of his reputation, punished him accordingly, then just suddenly started ignoring all the cheated landings again after the 2024 summer break (now it has accelerated).

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Everything about competition is comparison, in relation to an established standard. Establishing who did something better, and why, is the entire basis of being able to accurately judge how something should be scored.

PCS judging has no real standards or thought put into it, on top of rules that are already heavily flawed, and that kills the artistry we get to see in competition. When someone is going to get basically the same score regardless of the actual quality of their choreography, musicality, and performance, then those elements of skating become an afterthought. And it's not like these qualities have ever been judged totally correct, thanks to reputation/political judging, but we've strayed very far from how important it's supposed to be and how it even gets discussed.

I did not say comparisons between skaters or teams are never warranted. I said that I don't see any need to compare Alysa Liu's skating with Nathan Chen's. Obviously, you find some reason to do so, which is fine for you to do. I'm not sure of the context which compels you to compare their skating. And I do not see what you are trying to get at with the comparison. If they had ever competed against each other, for example, at the former Peggy Fleming artistic competition, then yes, that could have been a context in which a comparison might make sense, at least for me.

PCS categories in skating are clearly used to manipulate placements, and are rarely realistic or fair.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Sorry, but there are many skaters that smile and conduct themselves properly, but don't get anything like these freebies from the judge.

Unsolved mysteries of figure skating judging.

 

[SmileHappy34]

Okay . To me they all skated great if u want to pick on alysa liu so calk not call q

Thr. U better pick on ami not call fall. Kaori not call single it does affect the PC i
in Her combo.
Let talk about not calls in men just because they do quads, the dance, the pairs.

The focus is mainly on women. Why
The men get a free due to quads, the dance due to no one un derstands
The pairs spins not align nor the q o. Throws because why.

We are endlessly back seat drivers on call in pursuit of favor skater team to win.

 

[Mathman]

As for the general question of what we learned from the Grand Prix Final and how things stand looking toward the Olympics, I think that the only takeaway is that nothing has really changed.

In ladies, Alysa Liu won. Well, it's better to win than to lose. But Kaori Sakamoto won the LP, Mone Chiba won the SP, and Ami Nakai leaves the venue with head held high. Plus. we haven't heard anything from Adelia Petrosyan for a while -- maybe Russian Nationals will shuffle expectations -- so, who is in position to feel the most confident heading to Milano? (We did learn that Amber Glenn needs both triple Axels -- but we knew that anyway.)

Did this event tell us anything about Chock and Bates versus Fournier-Beaudry and Cizeron? At this point, I wouldn't bet the farm either way.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I did not say comparisons between skaters or teams are never warranted. I said that I don't see any need to compare Alysa Liu's skating with Nathan Chen's.

They both did a similar choreographic move in their programs, and Alysa performed it with superior expression and extension and fluidity of movement. That should be directly accounted for in the PCS.

You could as an example take a program you'd score "9.5" and tell us why it's not a "10". I'm guessing you won't say "the arm here wasn't as good as it could have been"?

Compare Kwan's 1998 Nationals LP with her Olympic LP and that's pretty much exactly the difference between those performances, in 3 specific areas:

1. Triple Flip landing at the Olympics was slightly wonky, causing her arms to go askew and break the body line for a moment, aka weaker choreography.

2. At Nationals after the 3Toe she moves her arms into a released pose, exactly in time with the music, whereas at the Olympics her arms remain static.

3. She gets into her final pose later and less energetically at the Olympics and throws her arms into the air much later, putting that movement way behind the music and reducing the impact of the movement itself.

 

[yfan1]

Compare Kwan's 1998 Nationals LP with her Olympic LP and that's pretty much exactly the difference between those performances, in 3 specific areas:

1. Triple Flip landing at the Olympics was slightly wonky, causing her arms to go askew and break the body line for a moment, aka weaker choreography.

2. At Nationals after the 3Toe she moves her arms into a released pose, exactly in time with the music, whereas at the Olympics her arms remain static.

3. She gets into her final pose later and less energetically at the Olympics and throws her arms into the air much later, putting that movement way behind the music and reducing the impact of the movement itself.

OK. Problem number 2.

0:50 - weak arm position (c), expression does not properly interpret the music (p)
0:57 - weak arm position (c)
1:28 - failure to express the music (p)
1:48 - failure to express the music (p)
2:05 - ugly position (c), no purpose with the music (c)
2:16 - lack of extension (c), failure to express the music (p)
2:34 - movement has no choreographic value (c), failure to express the music (p)
3:31 - failure to express the music (p)
4:14 - lackluster jump in spin and subsequent position do not go with the music (c)
4:20 - lack of extension (c)
4:34 - spin exit is ineffective and serves no purpose (c)

Here, I count 9 deductions of 0.25 for you to end up with 7.75 on composition.

Doesn't this assume that if only he corrected these flaws, he'd be a 10 on composition, without regard to several of the other things that are important to composition (spread of elements and patterning, as an example)?

I actually don't think I'd go higher than a 7 on composition for Malinin's LP, for this reason.

 

[Mathman]

Compare Kwan's 1998 Nationals LP with her Olympic LP and that's pretty much exactly the difference between those performances, in 3 specific areas:

1. Triple Flip landing at the Olympics was slightly wonky, causing her arms to go askew and break the body line for a moment, aka weaker choreography.

2. At Nationals after the 3Toe she moves her arms into a released pose, exactly in time with the music, whereas at the Olympics her arms remain static.

3. She gets into her final pose later and less energetically at the Olympics and throws her arms into the air much later, putting that movement way behind the music and reducing the impact of the movement itself.

That is subperb -- and superbly subtle -- analysis. At Nationals Michelle would have deserved 10s in PCS. Ubnder 6.0 she got a string of 6,0s on the second mark and beat Tara Lipinski handily.

At the Olympics her performance deserved 9.5s under Code of Points scoring, she got 5.9s out of 6 on the presentation mark, and came in second.

So it seems that the judges were right on the money.

However, I'm not sure that the judges back then were quite as astute observers as you are giving them credit for. in termas of releasing arm positions, etc. I believe that it is more likely that the Olympic judges felt that a tiny bit of confidence and pizzazz was missing form the Olympic performance compared to the Nationals one, and that this tipped the balance in favor of Lipinski who skated her wee little heart out, In other words, that they were making a subjective judgment based on intangibles.

In any case, Michelle Kwan fans came away thinking that the judges were wrong --"I can't believe they gave it to that upstart Tara rather than to the sublime Michelle -- booooo!!!!!" It is ever thus, regardless of how much training the judges have and regardless of the details of the scoring system.

 

[Blades of Passion]

It's not even just the missed calls, but jumps that aren't q's but landing maybe 70 degrees short and getting huge GOE on everything.

A jump being 70 degrees short can absolutely deserve huge GOE. A big jump with ideal takeoff and good positioning and speed and flow, that's a great element. It just shouldn't get the absolute maximum GOE.

And no, those jumps of Alysa's weren't under. If you think there is more than 90 degrees missing here then something needs to change about how you're looking at it.

Doesn't this assume that if only he corrected these flaws, he'd be a 10 on composition, without regard to several of the other things that are important to composition (spread of elements and patterning, as an example)?

It's not some simple thing to just "correct those flaws". There needs to be a real artistic desire and projection of emotion at all times AND movement that constantly interprets the music AND the finesse and timing and body lines to be able to execute evocative, high-quality movement.

There are some general deductions that can also be included as an overall impression, but spread of elements generally just matters in terms of how the elements are used with the music (deduct if they aren't used well enough) and patterning is generally applicable mainly to the shape of footwork sequences (deduct if the movement doesn't have choreographic cohesion), although I'd definitely deduct for something like Carolina Kostner doing two 3S in a row, in the same spot of the ice. There's no inherent artistic benefit to trying to achieve 100% ice coverage or something like that. If a skater happens to do that then it would be more a reflection of skating skills, being able to generate the speed to show that ice coverage.

 

[yfan1]

It's not some simple thing to just "correct those flaws".

OK. Question still stands. Does this or does this not assume that these are the only flaws in that program, without regard to the rest?

Would you really say that if these flaws were corrected in Malinin's program, it'd deserve a 10? That, as an example, this is the best way his step sequence could have been choreographed, or his spins were choreographed? (even within these requirements)

If not, how long did it take you to come to that conclusion? Do you expect the average judge with all the training in the world to be able to do that in minutes - and for every competitor, at that?

although I'd definitely deduct for something like Carolina Kostner doing two 3S in a row, in the same spot of the ice.

If someone were to present a reason that this is a fine placement with artistic intent, would you agree?

There's no inherent artistic benefit to trying to achieve 100% ice coverage or something like that. If a skater happens to do that then it would be more a reflection of skating skills, being able to generate the speed to show that ice coverage.

That wasn't my argument to begin - spread of elements, to me, also means at which time during the program an element is performed.

We can also speak about balance or build - like how Kim Yuna's SP had her doing no same type of element next to each other in her 2006-07 season.

Or how for all talk about Zagitova's 2018 LP, we never saw her do two spins together, and even her ChSq and StSq were separated by a spin in the middle.

 

[Mathman]

It's not some simple thing to just "correct those flaws". There needs to be a real artistic desire and projection of emotion at all times AND movement that constantly interprets the music AND the finesse and timing and body lines to be able to execute evocative, high-quality movement.

I greatly enjoy your use of language in describing "artistic" aspects of figure skating.

Bu my goodness, Can we really expect judges to make a determination of a skater's "artistic desire," projection of emotion throughout, movemt that constantly interprets the music, finesse and timing of bodily movement? Is it reasonable to suppose than any group of nine people, however discerning and artistically sensitive, will come simultaneously to the same conclusion about such things?

 

[yfan1]

I greatly enjoy your use of language in describing "artistic" aspects of figure skating.

Bu my goodness, Can we really expect judges to make a determination of a skater's "artistic desire," projection of emotion throughout, movemt that constantly interprets the music, finesse and timing of bodily movement? Is it reasonable to suppose than any group of nine people, however discerning and artistically sensitive, will come simultaneously to the same conclusion about such things?

This poster is speaking mostly about technicalities, and is coming to the conclusion about 'artistic merit'. But even then... the word "art" is in fact too broad for the sport. IMO, this poster's posts kind of prove it. The word "craft" or "design" would fit the "artistry" of figure skating better, especially its obsession with aesthetics, and especially that the athletes are aiming to win on objective criteria: aka "a stretched out camel", "a pointed toe". Things like that won't matter too much when we are talking about full fledged art, that exists for the sheer sake of viewing pleasure and does not care about mass opinions - broken lines and ugly positions become perfectly valid modes of expression, if not even better modes of expression in several situations.

I wouldn't say a 4 minute long program (or even 4.5 minutes long) actually *is* enough to develop a concept or a theme that could be considered full-fledged and artistic. Nor do I believe any athlete out there has the latitude of spending as much time as artists do to develop their work.

 

[museksk8r]

Well, I still don’t feel well about how this dance event turned out and, if anything, from all the resulting online commentaries and video playbacks, I am even more convinced that Gilles and Poirier were robbed considering how everything played out at the GPF.

My RD standings would be:
1. FB/C
2. G/P
3. C/B
4. F/G

My FD standings would be:
1. G/P
2. FB/C (due to the fall breaking the spell)
3. C/B
4. F/G

Overall:
1. G/P
2. FB/C
3. C/B
4. F/G

There are so many elements where G/P’s GOE was purposefully held down to 2s and 3s and where C/B’s GOE were inflated to 4s and 5s when they should have been 2s and 3s for elements that were really not performed well. Tony’s and Thomas’s (The Skating Session) deep dive into the ice dance event was very enlightening. Shawn Rettstatt and IAM are really politicking super hard for Chock and Bates. I’ve long wondered where is Skate Canada, Michael Slipchuk, and Team G/P (Carol Lane, etc.) to politick for Gilles and Poirier? I truly feel bad for Piper and Paul; the early skate order hurt them here and if the judges had actually rewarded them fairly, they would have won this event due to the fall of Laurence and Guillaume, but for political reasons, the powers that be will not allow that to happen.

Now, if I’m judging a dance event where all these teams deliver their best cleanly with fair levels and GOE, I would rank them as follows:
1. FB/C
2. G/P
3. C/B
4. F/G

With FB/C, it’s easy to see how their quality of skating speaks for itself with their deep edges, speed, high and low planes of movement, extension, and ice coverage. When their elements are performed cleanly, they perform them the best of all the teams. However, no one can convince me that a clean G/P should be losing to F/G ever! This season, C/B have regressed and this competition really proved to me that G/P were blatantly held down and C/B with their slow skating, shallow ice coverage, and clunky elements were unjustly held up. I am actually a fan of C/B’s FD this season and I think it’s the best dance they’ve had this entire quad, but the reality is they are not performing their material well this season and I believe they are getting the benefit of the doubt for being 3 time World Champions. When you replay their elements in slow motion though, you really see the cracks and flaws abound. I have seen speculation online wondering if Evan may be dealing with injury, as his range of motion has appeared extremely limited. Ice dance judging this season is next level insanity and it’s no wonder it’s making so many fans fall out of love with this sport.

 

[Mathman]

... the word "art" is in fact too broad for the sport...

Don't get @4everchan (a professional pianist) started on "what is Art?"

The word "craft" or "design" would fit the "artistry" of figure skating better,

If you suggest that basketweaving and pottery are "art." you'll get your head handed to you.