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I think you are right about that. The U.S. will never catch on to the serious high art and philosophical profundity of ice skating shows.
Replay Lounge 2025-26 Grand Prix Final
- Thread starter gsk8
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Yeah, but why? Skating is just a form, a tool. It is up to the skaters to use it to say something more meaningful and important than just "watch me skating, woa haha"...I think you are right about that. The U.S. will never catch on to the serious high art and philosophical profundity of ice skating shows.
Maybe that's one of the reasons why ice shows in Japan are thriving and in US they seem to be dying....
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It is your opinion, mine is different. So we disagree here.
'course, except you also spoke about how such and such's shows are being published about in high art magazines, and how it's all evolved in Japan. I don't feel any one person has a finger on the pulse of Japan over here.
I'd say that many skaters have "accomplished" such things - yet no one remembers them all that much anymore. Henie and Curry, as examples.
About magazines, btw, I see it as a worldwide phenomenon that they've become less critical of art, and more hype. Stars earn them money, and they're aware of it.
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But I suspect you haven't watched what they write about, have you?
You suspect wrongly, then.
People can come to different conclusions having watched the same things, btw. And I stand by saying, "high art magazines" depending on what it is they're writing about and which magazines they are, can often lie.
As an example, remember Gucci? See how its stocks have been plummeting? People associated with fashion saw it a long time coming.
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Oh, my remark was not about what art magazines write about in general but about specific ice shows being reviewed there, and I based my assumption on your earlier post when you claimed you were not keeping up with what such and such skater was doing, lol
But in general the question here is not about art magazines and their content, and I have no idea why focus on this detail.
It is rather about ice shows organized as skaters skating their - usually watered down technically - programs one after another with no link between them whatsoever, much like in a competition but without competing, which I understand makes it boring for many people, vs organized around a selected topic, question or telling an overall story with all the programs, possibly using more ways of expression than just skating. The second type is thriving in Japan and it just goes to show it is gaining a lot of recognition from the public, often more than competitions do. And while you can like it or not, these shows are "meaningful" because of the way they are organized - around a certain topic or a storyline which gives them a "meaning". Whether you like the story and appreciate this meaning or not, depends on any particular viewer, of course, but it is hard to deny these are completely different types of shows. Some reviewers (not fans) even call it a different genre altogether. When the topic is resonating deeply with the public, it makes the show even more successful, of course.
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John Curry revolutionized the sport through his works with modern dance and ballet choreographers, even created an entire company (I believe Lori Nichol was part of it), yet I'd be hard-pressed to find fans in the modern day who are aware of his contributions. Yes, even Hanyu fans, for all their talk about artistry and art and so on.
I daresay Twyla Tharp wasn't exactly a nobody.
Fact is fact. Figure skating doesn't appeal to a broad audience, and it's not because people simply haven't tried. It's because the medium is limiting in various ways.
I daresay Twyla Tharp wasn't exactly a nobody.
Fact is fact. Figure skating doesn't appeal to a broad audience, and it's not because people simply haven't tried. It's because the medium is limiting in various ways.
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I dare to think a skater selling out Tokyo Dome or consistently reaching No 1s on bestseller lists with their shows on DVDs / BRs is appealing to a broad audience... Fact is fact
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And to make a link and go back to this thread's topic, the GPF winning FS in Men was clearly inspired by one of the programs from the Echoes of Life show. This attempt was, alas, not very successful from the artistic perspective as Ilia Malinin is clearly too young to convincingly try his hand at philosophy the way his 10 years older predecessor did, and while Yuzu was highly praised for his take, Ilia's attempt was rather widely criticised which was a disappointment for him. An important difference was that Yuzu authored his narration himself into a coherent poem and not used a bunch of random quotes from outside sources, and the whole program was an integral part of a show telling a story, rather than being shown in the context of a competition's rushed chaos. But the inspiration from this Japanese show is obvious for anyone who saw both, especially when combined with IM's admiration for and fascination with Yuzuru Hanyu.
So the thread is getting back on track this way, I guess...
So the thread is getting back on track this way, I guess...
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- Jun 21, 2003
I think that one has to bear in mind the history of ice shows in the U.S. It was basically this:
When the Tom Collins tour Champions on Ice came along in the 1970s, this was a giant step forward. World and Olympic medalists were featured doing performances that were not ALL that much watered down in terms of technical content. Still, after the 1990s the big touring shows were mostly over.
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Right. Like how idol shows featuring boy groups and girl groups are also selling out Tokyo Dome. I guess they appeal to a broad audience. Yet I'd be hardpressed to find too many of the general public who're familiar with them, despite their having revolutionized music, isn't it?I dare to think a skater selling out Tokyo Dome or consistently reaching No 1s on bestseller lists with their shows on DVDs / BRs is appealing to a broad audience... Fact is fact
Must be like how Taylor Swift is the singer to end all singers, yet she ranks far below the likes of Aretha Franklin in terms of sheer singing talent. No one buys multiple CDs, posters, or other merchandise, and there is no scalping or any other underhanded practices happening at these shows, due to fan culture more than anything, and there's no marketing or social media team behind all this happening at all.
Oh well. I guess John Curry never sold anything out and was never praised for anything. He must have faded into obscurity because he was unable to do so.
Fact really is fact.
While I'm sure everyone at Tokyo Dome is a connoisseur of the finest of arts and a philosopher at heart, I have to point out that not everyone wishes to portray the most complete of philosophies in 3 hour long shows, nor do they have the wealth to be doing so.
It has nothing to do with age. Not necessarily anyway.
ETA: Just as an addendum to all this... People might want to read up on things like Oshikatsu, and why it's not as wonderful as you believe it is - especially when you see how people are willing to spend 100, 000s of yen on a single person. Quite a lot of it is hypercapitalism.
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A claim: figure skating is not appealing to a broad audience by definition - but what if a skater is hugely popular? Wrong. Pop, idol culture, narrow fandom, not broad enough. Phew!
He has huge fandom and a remarkable selling power? Wrong. Oshikatsu, hypercapitalism. Phew!
Art magazines are praising his shows for artistic quality? Wrong. They lie. Phew.
Philosophers get involved in public dialogue with him? Wrong. Impossible to say anything of philosophical value in a 3 hour show, never heard of haiku and even if, it would not matter anyway. Phew! Phew!
World sport press voted him 6th best male athlete of the last century across all sports? Best never mention it, it hurts others and their fans, and is phew phew anyway.
Anyone still wonders why this sport's fandom is so small and so unable to make their sport popular? Lol.
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He has huge fandom and a remarkable selling power? Wrong. Oshikatsu, hypercapitalism. Phew!
Art magazines are praising his shows for artistic quality? Wrong. They lie. Phew.
Philosophers get involved in public dialogue with him? Wrong. Impossible to say anything of philosophical value in a 3 hour show, never heard of haiku and even if, it would not matter anyway. Phew! Phew!
World sport press voted him 6th best male athlete of the last century across all sports? Best never mention it, it hurts others and their fans, and is phew phew anyway.
Anyone still wonders why this sport's fandom is so small and so unable to make their sport popular? Lol.
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Oh I don't.
As I said, it's more likely because it's expensive, and there are too many sexual abuse scandals in it, along with issues like doping, and judging issues. Something that I note a two time Olympic champion could have used his position and voice to speak up about, yet didn't.
But I do find it interesting how willing people are to ignore every sourced point several others are willing to discuss, ignore historical data and information, and yet come up with connections about how some millionaire did philosophy on ice, and some 21 year old in a competition couldn't. I must have been very confused about how vastly different those two settings are. Probably, Yuzuru Hanyu attempted to portray philosophy in his competitive programs - and succeeded - and I among others have simply not caught up.
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BTW, I don't know which "High Art magazines" have published things about ice shows, and it's difficult to debate with things that haven't been sourced (and are unlikely to be). However, High Art and Fine Art, if we are talking about them seriously, are not subject to mass appeal. Many times, time is the greatest determinant of their value, and their role is not to seek pleasure, or to become some moral compass aiming for popular aesthetics, but very much of the subjective expression from the artists above all else and does not seek mass consent from a general audience.
Unless such a criticism happened in these so-called High Art Magazines, it is not particularly useful to peruse them. Just to point out, though, this has never been where figure skating is, whose entire point is to drawn an audience.
Same applies to philosophies. There are many thirty year old men online and offline, I'm sorry to say, who fancy themselves philosophers. Philosophy, unfortunately, is meant as a critique of society and humanity (among other things). Of course people will debate others. Point is whether anything meaningful has been said, not whether dialogue simply happened.
Unless such a criticism happened in these so-called High Art Magazines, it is not particularly useful to peruse them. Just to point out, though, this has never been where figure skating is, whose entire point is to drawn an audience.
Same applies to philosophies. There are many thirty year old men online and offline, I'm sorry to say, who fancy themselves philosophers. Philosophy, unfortunately, is meant as a critique of society and humanity (among other things). Of course people will debate others. Point is whether anything meaningful has been said, not whether dialogue simply happened.
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- Jun 21, 2003
The world needs its young philosophers as much as its old ones. My own personal ice skating philosophy is summed up in this program from the 1990s.
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High art? The costume alone brought smiles and cheers form audiences before she even stepped onto the ice. (Choreography by Sandra Bezic.)
