2025 Quebec Sectionals (Junior and Senior) | Nov 7-10, 2024

4everchan · Nov 10, 2024

well most of the 8 we thought would make it have made it... sad for Mia Catherine.

however, if they want to Q for Nationals, they will need to bring a better game... nobody really managed to do very well today.

saine · Nov 10, 2024

Final leaderboard:

1	Justine Miclette	Q
2	Marie-Maude Pomerleau	Q
3	Julianne Lussier	Q
4	Marie-France D'Amour	Q
5	Marie-Raphaele Savoie	Q
6	Jade Bouchard	Q
7	Mia Clarke	Q
8	Camille Perreault	Q
9	Mia-Catherine Lussier
10	Daphne Lamontagne
11	Nour-Houda Foura
12	Coralie Plante
13	Florence Le-Tiec
14	Sylia Rabhi
15	Sarah-Maude Vouligny
16	Lorie-Ann Pelchat
17	Camille St-Laurent
18	Sara-Kim Begin
19	Sarah-Jane Giguere
20	Dylane Laplante
21	Audrey Heneault

Also interesting to see them streaming taking down the kiss and cry after the end of the event.

RatedPG · Nov 10, 2024

It was a sloppy event!
It is like these skaters think they just need to land a few triples and their PCS will be enough
Justine at 163.43 (the mistake on the last spin, is the difference between getting a challenger or not)
She doesn’t deserve a Challenger yet…

4everchan · Nov 10, 2024

RatedPG said:
Let me know how the others do…

Moving to ONT to watch Fiona and hopefully my stream doesn’t reload and I can watch the two top Senior Ladies

damn.. that means i missed fiona and ben

saine · Nov 10, 2024

I got Fiona and Ben, along with Jazzy and Kiki

4everchan · Nov 10, 2024

el henry said:
Wow, did not expect that with the pops (?) and stumbles.

Liked both Edrian and Anthony, senior Québécois men have the artistry market cornered.

ETA: And I got in later than expected and still saw both of them, but not settled in enough for commentary.

Even Antoine, who was a hot mess on his jumps yesterday... his spins were beautiful and his basic skating is smooth ...

The axel pop is intentional. It is a place holder for a 3axel. He has two other 2axels in his program and cannot have 3.

4everchan · Nov 10, 2024

saine said:
I got Fiona and Ben, along with Jazzy and Kiki

you're the best. I am going to head over to Ontario and watch our awesome pairs

4everchan · Nov 10, 2024

RatedPG said:
It was a sloppy event!
It is like these skaters think they just need to land a few triples and their PCS will be enough
Justine at 163.43 (the mistake on the last spin, is the difference between getting a challenger or not)
She doesn’t deserve a Challenger yet…

I agree she doesn't deserve it. She tried to play smart with removing her 3f-3t and replacing with 3f-2a but that back fired too... Gorgeous 3f but that 2a just killed her GOE.

This layout should work in her favour later hopefully in a new world where no one needs a true 3-3.

In any case, I think she will get around 170 at challenge. She will be fired up by this.

But, to be honest, I don't see her on the 4CC team. Fée Ann, Breken, Uliana, Kaiya, Maddie and Sarah-Maude are ahead... and KMS too

Skating Bobr · Nov 10, 2024

4everchan said:
on what ? Goe tech calls, PCS ? Curious to see what you think. There are many many ideas and opinions about this

In general I would say mostly GOE and PCS, with a bit of tech calls. I'll try my best to keep it organized and concise, but no promises

In an ideal world I would like to see fair judging across all sections based on the skate of the skater and not based on their reputation, but I know that's a lot to ask in this sport. Just putting it out there so you can get a sense of my standards and expectations. And I'll stick to mostly junior and senior boys cause there is too many girls for me to track and I find the scoring for girls to be more fair (maybe a bigger sample size and less range in score?).

The Junior BC/YT boys had very low PCS for the short (initially the Novice Boys PCS factoring was used

), but even after the fix, I found the PCS to be lower than usual. For example, William Chan had significantly higher PCS in his JGP in both his short and free, and unlike TES, PCS should not be that variable from competition to competition so I expected a higher score for him even with the mistakes he made. For all the boys the TES was good for both the short and free. From what I heard, Kevin Reynolds was the technical specialist and he is strict but very fair, exactly what I would want in a technical specialist. I saw the same pattern with the Senior BC/YT boys, fair tech in both programs but a little low on the PCS in the short. Then, in the senior boys free, the PCS improved to reflect more of the score I expected. That's my impression of the BC/YT Sectionals. Also, I can't comment on Manitoba's David Howes who competed with the BC boys because I have not seen his detail sheet.

The feed for Ontario Sectionals for senior boys free was quite wonky for me, but I think all the tech calls, GOEs and PCS were reasonable in both the short and free for the senior boys. Same with the junior boys, maybe an unnecessary edge call here and there, but I have noticed the Canadian judges seem to be more strict with edge calls because they were calling a lot on the flips during NextGen and then on the JGP circuit the flip edge calls disappeared for most of the Canadian boys. But overall, the Ontario judges and tech panel were fair during Sectionals so not much to comment on.

As for the Quebec Sectionals...After the Quebec senior men free, I don't even know where to begin. Those scores were like...wow.
So I'll start with the junior men cause that's easier. The PCS looked good to me, and the tech calls too. GOEs were a bit too high for me, especially compared to how the other sections judged this year, but I understand that each section probably wants to have the highest scores at their sectionals, so I can't complain as long as its within a limit.

The senior men is where I have thoughts about the judging.

In the short, I think the GOEs were higher than the GOEs that would be given at an international competition (and is probably the reason why the domestic benchmark is like 10 points higher than the international one). I think two of the boys got a level 4 step sequence with +1.20 GOE or greater. First person who pops into my head who gets those kind of points internationally is Luc Economides, and his step sequences (especially the short) this year are breathtaking imo. Literally my favourite. And I get Quebec boys skate good, but its not at the level of Luc. Also want to note that my criticism is not directed at the skaters, they are not the ones giving the points and its no fault of theirs.

In the free, I think there were a few missed tech calls (I can elaborate if you want), and again the GOEs were higher. Like a step out should be -2 and yet I saw one judge give a +1, and I get its a sequence and the first jump could be good and reduce the minuses, but still, the GOEs should be lower. In the free, the PCS just skyrocketed. I understand someone may be very artistic, but the judges can't give skaters with at least 2 major errors/interruptions in a program a PCS that, for comparison, would place them 4th and 9th (in PCS) at the NHK Trophy. If they are truly worthy of those points, then 1st and 2nd place at Quebec Sectionals are at the level of being granted GP assignments cause they got more TSS points than Juheon Lim if not Gabriele Frangipani at this week's NHK Trophy. But if they don't deserve those points, why are the Quebec judges doing this?

I think Quebec wasn't this blatant in their inflation before. Or maybe other sections did it too so it wasn't as noticeable. But this year, the Quebec Sectionals Senior Men scores look like an outlier to me. For this reason, I think the domestic benchmarks should only use scores from Challenge and Nationals where judges and tech panel is represented by ALL sections because otherwise it incentives each section to give their senior skaters high scores in order to lobby Skate Canada to send their skaters to a Challenger event.

I like a merit based order to society and seeing politics influence decisions, even in sports (don't even get me started on how Team Canada was robbed of the team Olympic Bronze) is not something I like. And I totally get that other countries do it too, the US also inflates the PCS of their skaters in domestic competitions, but I think it is more uniform across all skaters/sections. On the other hand, Japan doesn't seem to inflate any scores from what I can tell looking at what a few of their top men get domestically vs. internationally. And their men are consistently at the top so maybe it is worth exploring what the Japanese are doing and following their example?

4everchan · Nov 10, 2024

Skating Bobr said:
In general I would say mostly GOE and PCS, with a bit of tech calls. I'll try my best to keep it organized and concise, but no promises

In an ideal world I would like to see fair judging across all sections based on the skate of the skater and not based on their reputation, but I know that's a lot to ask in this sport. Just putting it out there so you can get a sense of my standards and expectations. And I'll stick to mostly junior and senior boys cause there is too many girls for me to track and I find the scoring for girls to be more fair (maybe a bigger sample size and less range in score?).

The Junior BC/YT boys had very low PCS for the short (initially the Novice Boys PCS factoring was used ), but even after the fix, I found the PCS to be lower than usual. For example, William Chan had significantly higher PCS in his JGP in both his short and free, and unlike TES, PCS should not be that variable from competition to competition so I expected a higher score for him even with the mistakes he made. For all the boys the TES was good for both the short and free. From what I heard, Kevin Reynolds was the technical specialist and he is strict but very fair, exactly what I would want in a technical specialist. I saw the same pattern with the Senior BC/YT boys, fair tech in both programs but a little low on the PCS in the short. Then, in the senior boys free, the PCS improved to reflect more of the score I expected. That's my impression of the BC/YT Sectionals. Also, I can't comment on Manitoba's David Howes who competed with the BC boys because I have not seen his detail sheet.

The feed for Ontario Sectionals for senior boys free was quite wonky for me, but I think all the tech calls, GOEs and PCS were reasonable in both the short and free for the senior boys. Same with the junior boys, maybe an unnecessary edge call here and there, but I have noticed the Canadian judges seem to be more strict with edge calls because they were calling a lot on the flips during NextGen and then on the JGP circuit the flip edge calls disappeared for most of the Canadian boys. But overall, the Ontario judges and tech panel were fair during Sectionals so not much to comment on.

As for the Quebec Sectionals...After the Quebec senior men free, I don't even know where to begin. Those scores were like...wow.
So I'll start with the junior men cause that's easier. The PCS looked good to me, and the tech calls too. GOEs were a bit too high for me, especially compared to how the other sections judged this year, but I understand that each section probably wants to have the highest scores at their sectionals, so I can't complain as long as its within a limit.

The senior men is where I have thoughts about the judging.

In the short, I think the GOEs were higher than the GOEs that would be given at an international competition (and is probably the reason why the domestic benchmark is like 10 points higher than the international one). I think two of the boys got a level 4 step sequence with +1.20 GOE or greater. First person who pops into my head who gets those kind of points internationally is Luc Economides, and his step sequences (especially the short) this year are breathtaking imo. Literally my favourite. And I get Quebec boys skate good, but its not at the level of Luc. Also want to note that my criticism is not directed at the skaters, they are not the ones giving the points and its no fault of theirs.

In the free, I think there were a few missed tech calls (I can elaborate if you want), and again the GOEs were higher. Like a step out should be -2 and yet I saw one judge give a +1, and I get its a sequence and the first jump could be good and reduce the minuses, but still, the GOEs should be lower. In the free, the PCS just skyrocketed. I understand someone may be very artistic, but the judges can't give skaters with at least 2 major errors/interruptions in a program a PCS that, for comparison, would place them 4th and 9th (in PCS) at the NHK Trophy. If they are truly worthy of those points, then 1st and 2nd place at Quebec Sectionals are at the level of being granted GP assignments cause they got more TSS points than Juheon Lim if not Gabriele Frangipani at this week's NHK Trophy. But if they don't deserve those points, why are the Quebec judges doing this?

I think Quebec wasn't this blatant in their inflation before. Or maybe other sections did it too so it wasn't as noticeable. But this year, the Quebec Sectionals Senior Men scores look like an outlier to me. For this reason, I think the domestic benchmarks should only use scores from Challenge and Nationals where judges and tech panel is represented by ALL sections because otherwise it incentives each section to give their senior skaters high scores in order to lobby Skate Canada to send their skaters to a Challenger event.

I like a merit based order to society and seeing politics influence decisions, even in sports (don't even get me started on how Team Canada was robbed of the team Olympic Bronze) is not something I like. And I totally get that other countries do it too, the US also inflates the PCS of their skaters in domestic competitions, but I think it is more uniform across all skaters/sections. On the other hand, Japan doesn't seem to inflate any scores from what I can tell looking at what a few of their top men get domestically vs. internationally. And their men are consistently at the top so maybe it is worth exploring what the Japanese are doing and following their example?

Thanks for your detailed post...
I think there are two things I want to comment quickly... well three.

I thought a couple qs or <s were not given at Quebec.. but in general, I thought the TP was good with rotation. Of course, Kevin Reynolds is the pro at spotting URs, he knows it very well from his own experience and Quebec may have had an easier panel here. If Skate Canada wanted scores to be the same, they would need to have the same TP across all events which is not possible... Re the steps, Luc or Adam may be better but that's GOE not levels... If a skater achieves the requirements for level 4, even if it's not at a Luc level, they still get level 4.. just like a bunch of skaters get level 4 on spins and do not do them as well as Anthony does. Antoine was also very good with his spins...

For GOEs, hard for me to say. I don't think anyone got 4 and 5s like crazy at Quebec and considering some of what Anthony can do in spins for instance, getting 2s and 3s is fair.

For PCS, I think it does show that Anthony and Edrian have international experience, let alone ISU championship experience. Like it or not, they are better than most of the men who competed across the sections in that department this weekend. I don't think it's necessary to compare to Frangipani who had a disastrous NHK LP or anyone else internationally.

I agree about the benchmarks. It does make it uneasy if skaters from one section (and it is not always Quebec, I remember Quebec women one year being destroyed by the panel of judges) get an edge and now have reached the domestic benchmark while others were more severely judges. I agree with this... At the same time, Skate Canada is so stingy with their assignments

In the end, sectionals don't really matter because all the qualified skaters will fight for it at Challenge and then, Nationals and will be evaluated with the same panel. I bet that Anthony will receive pretty high scores if he skates well there too

I agree that in an ideal world, scores would be more harmonized but at the same time, as long as scores are fair within the one section, I am okay with that...

Skate Canada is not silly about it either, knowing that some challengers are more generous (Denis Ten Memorial) than others and sending some skaters there to get their minimums

So we gotta play the game or not play it

but we cannot decide when we want to play it or not.

Reverie · Nov 10, 2024

How many juniors ladies can qualify from Ontario?

saine · Nov 10, 2024

Reverie said:
How many juniors ladies can qualify from Ontario?

Ontario has 14 spots, not including skaters with byes. But not all the skaters have the TES minimums, I'll post the list for the skaters who do have the minimums in the Ontario thread.

RatedPG · Nov 10, 2024

Also, my two cents on PCS on Quebec for our Senior Men…

The scores are high cause they are world class. Anthony is a future Jason Brown in the making. Which is why his PCS is so high. The other two Senior men also have quite good skating skills.

saine · Nov 11, 2024

Individual videos while waiting for the archives

Edrian Paul Celestino SP - https://youtu.be/_-FapUfCTO0
Anthony Paradis SP - https://youtu.be/BjpkQaMgqOg
Justine Miclette SP - https://youtu.be/2vyFCUjpZ9I
Edrian Paul Celestino FS - https://youtu.be/378HMP4hHSA
Anthony Paradis FS - https://youtu.be/VP2nKlEPm1c
Les Supremes Senior SP - https://youtu.be/QvOF0M9Eg5o
Les Supremes Senior FS - https://youtu.be/2UqSZvfNpRc

www.dailymotion.com

(Sr Free Dance)

Skating Bobr · Nov 13, 2024

4everchan said:
Thanks for your detailed post...
I think there are two things I want to comment quickly... well three.

I thought a couple qs or <s were not given at Quebec.. but in general, I thought the TP was good with rotation. Of course, Kevin Reynolds is the pro at spotting URs, he knows it very well from his own experience and Quebec may have had an easier panel here. If Skate Canada wanted scores to be the same, they would need to have the same TP across all events which is not possible... Re the steps, Luc or Adam may be better but that's GOE not levels... If a skater achieves the requirements for level 4, even if it's not at a Luc level, they still get level 4.. just like a bunch of skaters get level 4 on spins and do not do them as well as Anthony does. Antoine was also very good with his spins...

For GOEs, hard for me to say. I don't think anyone got 4 and 5s like crazy at Quebec and considering some of what Anthony can do in spins for instance, getting 2s and 3s is fair.

For PCS, I think it does show that Anthony and Edrian have international experience, let alone ISU championship experience. Like it or not, they are better than most of the men who competed across the sections in that department this weekend. I don't think it's necessary to compare to Frangipani who had a disastrous NHK LP or anyone else internationally.

I agree about the benchmarks. It does make it uneasy if skaters from one section (and it is not always Quebec, I remember Quebec women one year being destroyed by the panel of judges) get an edge and now have reached the domestic benchmark while others were more severely judges. I agree with this... At the same time, Skate Canada is so stingy with their assignments

In the end, sectionals don't really matter because all the qualified skaters will fight for it at Challenge and then, Nationals and will be evaluated with the same panel. I bet that Anthony will receive pretty high scores if he skates well there too

I agree that in an ideal world, scores would be more harmonized but at the same time, as long as scores are fair within the one section, I am okay with that...

Skate Canada is not silly about it either, knowing that some challengers are more generous (Denis Ten Memorial) than others and sending some skaters there to get their minimums So we gotta play the game or not play it but we cannot decide when we want to play it or not.

Yep I agree, there were a few q and < and maybe even ! not called. And for steps, yeah I meant the GOEs cause the steps did look like level 4 to me!

I wouldn't say Frangipani had disastrous LP, he landed 2 quads and 2 triple axels, sure the landings were a bit meh so he lost a bit on the GOEs of those four jumps, but no major errors such as falls or pops. And his program was beautiful, but then again I love any Benoit program.

As for benchmarks, I read up on them just now, and it says the skater has to consistently meet them in order to get a Challenger, so with that in mind, I don't mind what Quebec did as much. And yes, Skate Canada has been stingy with handing out Challengers, but it seems like they're less so this year fortunately (not including Golden Spin of Zagreb apparently), so I would like to see some junior age eligible skaters get them next year (much like what lots of junior age European skaters get) so that there are more options available to choose from for the Olympics. If they meet the benchmarks ofc. Skating is a somewhat unpredictable sport, things can change fast, like Ilia got most, if not all of his quads ratified including quad axel in a span of roughly two years, so who knows what will happen in the next 15 months. Especially in these times we live in

4everchan · Nov 13, 2024

Skating Bobr said:
Yep I agree, there were a few q and < and maybe even ! not called. And for steps, yeah I meant the GOEs cause the steps did look like level 4 to me!

I wouldn't say Frangipani had disastrous LP, he landed 2 quads and 2 triple axels, sure the landings were a bit meh so he lost a bit on the GOEs of those four jumps, but no major errors such as falls or pops. And his program was beautiful, but then again I love any Benoit program.

As for benchmarks, I read up on them just now, and it says the skater has to consistently meet them in order to get a Challenger, so with that in mind, I don't mind what Quebec did as much. And yes, Skate Canada has been stingy with handing out Challengers, but it seems like they're less so this year fortunately (not including Golden Spin of Zagreb apparently), so I would like to see some junior age eligible skaters get them next year (much like what lots of junior age European skaters get) so that there are more options available to choose from for the Olympics. If they meet the benchmarks ofc. Skating is a somewhat unpredictable sport, things can change fast, like Ilia got most, if not all of his quads ratified including quad axel in a span of roughly two years, so who knows what will happen in the next 15 months. Especially in these times we live in

Your last sentence sums it all

Thanks again for this discussion. I enjoy reading your posts.

2025 Quebec Sectionals (Junior and Senior) | Nov 7-10, 2024

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