Replay Lounge 2025 Skate Canada

[throw_triple_flip]

Just caught up with free dance. Honestly i preferred watching the first group and the German team were my favourites. I also preferred the American version of Nureyev (better musicality). I also really liked the concept of Neset and Markelov's Napoleon free. It was a bit bonkers.

There seems to be a bit of discourse about Gilles and Poirier "throwing away" their Olympic chances. Seems a tad dramatic- this is only one competition and their first of of the season. There were some mistakes and what looked like nerves.. but they still won! Last Olympic season they had a good start but ended up falling apart a bit at the Olympics and Worlds. So perhaps this will be beneficial for them overall.

I reckon the battle between third and fourth here will have a much different outcome at Skate America.

 

[lariko]

Also, I wanted to note that in terms of raw ability, Russians have Lev Lazarev who has just turned 16, which means he is not senior eligible under ISU rules until 2027-2028 season. Lev is almost exactly 5 years younger than Malinin. There are certainly outliers like Malinin, however, luck and talent management is what is going to determine their career longevity. I would love to see Malinin and Lazarev on the same ice one day, the way we didn't see the much anticipated (back then) match between Yablokov and Malinin in 2021 JWC due to Covid 2019 pandemic. Yablokov's competitive carreer was over by 2024, while Malinin went on to become a world champion. Yablokov was a year and 2 months older than Malinin.

Unfortunately, in the past 6 years, the bigger events have been unkind to figure skating competitions, so many, many cool matches didn't happen.

 

[TontoK]

I know what I am going to say is very unpopular here and Ilia fans are going to hate it but, yes, like it or not, after what happened with Kamila in the last Olympics, many people got burnt and learnt to stay away from any new extra jumper fan wagon, genetics or not.
Personally I see Ilia Malinin as a male equivalent to Eteri girls in many ways, with the difference that they were much much better overall skaters and much more pleasant to watch. But the philosophy is just the same. Longevity? Well, this is an obvious gender benefit as being male makes it easier to keep the jumps longer. Skating skills, presentation, interpretation? Who cares. Yes, I can see he's better than he used to be but he's still very mediocre in all these aspects, no matter how much we would like to watch with rose-tinted glasses, and his being just 2 PCS points away from guys like Yuma or Jason makes it a joke. And, no, a randomly packed together bunch of quotes does not make him more "artistic".
Plus one thing that is rarely being mentioned is the big fed politics. With all his jumps, I am pretty sure that if he came from a small federation he would get much lower PCSs, which would be much more appropriate to what he shows on ice, and much more scrutiny even on his jumps (look at Shaidorov and the way he is treated by the judges). In the end of the day, he would mostly win anyway but would never get the scores he gets, which would be more fair both to him and to all the other skaters, and better for the sport as such. And it would probably be seen as way less problematic and controversial even by non-fans, leaving him better accepted and, in the end of the day. better liked. But he would not be unbeatable. Because what makes him currently unbeatable is not just his TES but his TES combined with the undeserved PCS shower and the "look at the artistic heights" PR coming not from his camp (which would be understandable) but from the ISU itself which makes it, well, laughable.

When Stephane Lambiel said ironically in an interview published just a few hours ago that the problem with music copyrights in FS will soon get solved as figure skating will not require music any more, I think it is obvious what - and who - he had in mind. You do not really need music for jumping contests, other than elevator music. Just the same as when he kept repeating that we should bring back beauty and musicality to the sport, as this is an aesthetic sport and it cannot stay interesting for the audiences without beauty. He also admitted that if he was introduced to figure skating the way it is now, he would never get interested or involved. Maybe someone should start listening as it is not just a random fan speaking but a 2xWC and 1xOSM and honestly, I would rather see more Lambiels than more Malinins in the sport while the path it is on leads exactly in the opposite direction.

Gosh, do you not like Ilia's skating?

In Lambiel's interview that you reference, did he mention the reasons for his split with Deniss? He's worked very closely with him a long time, since Deniss was a minor, so this caught me by surprise.

 

[sisinka]

Unfortunately, that's not how it works : there is a replacement list in order of rank and GP hosts will follow it to award GP to substitutes in case of a withdrawal. So the ISU and Estonian Fed have no power here.

However, the good news for Sasha is that now that Tomo and Gogo have been awarded their second spots, Sasha is next in line. So, if indeed someone w/d from one of the last two events (it's definitely too late for NHK) he would get the call. But then, are we really wishing someone will be too injured to compete ?

Silver lining, a couple years ago, GP hosts just invited whomever they wanted from the replacement list ...and it did happen that winning a medal was actually making sure you wouldn't get invited by other hosts, to prevent that athlete from qualifying... Kaetlyn Osmond won Skate Canada and never got a second event.

Thank you for precise explanation.
I had in mind spots, when hosting country invites skaters. Or when hosting country gives one own spot away for skater / couple from another country.
I definitely don't want anyone to get injured!

But it would be nice from ISU to create new rule - to have one "free" spot for 4th to 6th Grand Prix event. For situation Alexandr is in.

I didn't know about Kaetlyn Osmond not getting second spot.

I remember Russian fans being surprised that "unknown Canadian, who never won any major junior competition" was able to beat Adelina Sotnikova (at the beginning of the 2012/13 season). Some more wise Russian skating fans argued: "But that unknown skater showed great quality of skating!"

If it was really the goal, not giving Kaetlyn the second spot to avoid strong rival...such politics does not have my support.
Winning medals because main rivals were not there is strange.
If you are really the best, you should be able to win over anyone.

 

[Magill]

Why do you think that Ilia's camp is not connected to the ISU? His agent is Ari Zacharian, he is quite influential in the ISU. It was thanks to his efforts that the figure skating Oscar was introduced. It made no sense, so it tanked. But keep in mind that Ari and Ilia's parents come from the same system, Shaidorov is its product too. The system was banished but its legacy survives and has sprouts in smaller federations. For the sake of fairness it must be mentioned that the holes get filled, now there is a push from the US fed to promote Alysa, and from AIM to squeeze out Italians. Poor Lambiel, not a good time for him to be a coach and he is not getting younger either.

I never said I thought Ilia camp is not connected to ISU, just that while a skater's (any skater's) direct team is doing a bit of even far-stretched PR for their guy or gal, it is natural, but when ISU does it for just one of the competitors, it becomes a completely different story. It makes you question their impartiality as the body that should actually guard clean sport and unbiased judging. I am fully aware they are interconnected, and are rooted in the same system, the one which gave us Eteri, Lakernik and the like.
Mind you, it is kind of amusing to see people who were such harsh critics of Eteri girls when they harvested podiums and medals for Russia with their jumps, now enthusiastically embracing Ilia Malinin, the main difference being that with his jumping drills he's harvesting medals for US. O, tempora, o, mores, lol!
TBH, I am pretty sure he is much worse overall skater than Anna Shcherbakova, not even at the slightest comparable to Alena Kostornaya, and as for Sasha Trusova, she surely had more "firsts jumps ever" in her discipline, and honestly, more "historic". And yet she was never gifted so high PCS like he is given all the time, in fact, she never won a major senior competition., fewer quads with better skating skills, presentation etc. were always perfectly enough to win over her. She was not very consistent, that's right, but still, unlike him, her URs were being called...
Which just goes to show how important politics is in this all, and no visible standard is ever followed, or even sighted.

 

[Mathman]

Gosh, do you not like Ilia's skating?

"No ome likes Ilia's skating" except the International Skating Union. I know that the ISU is Ok with ilia's skating because the ISU scoring system just gave him a win in a Grand Prix event by 76.6 points over the field. (This has to be some kind of record, right?)

We cannot reasonably expect that the next generation of male figure skaters and their coaches will fail to notice this.

 

[Magill]

"I know that the ISU is Ok with ilia's skating because the ISU scoring system just gave him a win in a Grand Prix event by 76.6 points over the field. (This has to be some kind of record, right?)

We cannot reasonably expect that the next generation of male figure skaters and their coaches will fail to notice this.

I think we all agree on this. The difference is whether we - and they - see it as something good and desirable for the sport, or quite to the contrary. Hard not to notice there is no general consensus over this.

 

[lariko]

I am really enjoying revisionism. Like, at least get your mudslinging straight, people.

Valieva was specifically praised as a balanced skater with uber PCSs, unlike Trusova who was a designated 'jumper' with no artistic qualities or any skating skills whatsoever. The outraged calls to give Trusova 1s and 5s in PCSs instead of 9s were just as common as what we hear for Malinin. And, Lord knows, Chen's skating skills were belittled left and right, which makes me ever more pleased that he is now elevated to a status of the Past Great.

Malinin may or may not perform well in Milan, but he sure had a great outing in this year's GP season so far with nice clean skates, using his full arsenal of quads and cooping with whatever ails him and keeps him up at night. I'll take that. I'm thrilled to have seen that free skate in Saskatoon, it was a privilege.

 

[Mathman]

Valieva was specifically praised as a balanced skater with uber PCSs, unlike Trusova who was a designated 'jumper' with no artistic qualities or any skating skills whatsoever. The outraged calls to give Trusova 1s and 5s in PCSs instead of 9s were just as common as what we hear for Malinin.

I have to say that outrage over PCSs is kind of irrelevant. Does Malinin deserve only 8.75 in PCSs instead of 9.0s? OK, so he will win by only 73 points instead of 76.

 

[lariko]

I have to say that outrage over PCSs is kind of irrelevant. Does Malinin deserve only 8.75 in PCSs instead of 9.0s? OK, so he will win by only 73 points instead of 76.

Not irrelevant for the 'fine, he should win, but he should win by less' faction. They choke over every tenth of a point.

 

[lariko]

Also, to fact check the 'overscored in PCSs' statements, Malinin's only top ten PCSs score is in a short program, and he is in 10th place, despite being a world champion twice. All other skaters upheld as high PCSs skaters who were active after the latest rule change score higher in PCSs than he does.

List of highest scores in figure skating - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Zora]

You do not really need music for jumping contests, other than elevator music.

It would also be more honest to just get rid of the music at this point. Let them jump it out and add a few spins and steps in between, just like men's floor routine in gymnastics.
Ilia's PCS being 90 is a joke. It means he's reached 90% of perfection. I'm not hating against Ilia, but it's a different sport in my eyes. 'Artistic' skating, what it's called in my country, can only be brought back if artistry is judged more harshly.

 

[Mathman]

It's not about artistry that comes with maturity and life experience. It's about skill that is acquired at a young age. He is not going to get the ballet basics to the degree Nathan had them...

Here is my all-time favorite Nathan Chen performance. To me.it is astonishing that an eleven-year-old can look Hungarian Rhapsody in the eye and not flinch! Give him a 9 for musical interpretation.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

 

[4everchan]

I can only speak for myself here and it's just my opinion. My problem with Malinin getting 9s is not about him winning or not by many points or less points.

It's simply that it sends the message that his components are equivalent to 9s when other skaters with better skating skills and much more interesting and intricate choreography are getting less or just about the same.

Ilia has improved in one aspect of PCS = presentation. I dislike his style and programs this year but he sells them and that is worth good points. But for the rest, I don't see, personally, much to cheer about in terms of improvement. His posture, his edge controls, his flow, his musicality, are not on par with skaters who excel in those departments. Even on some jumps, the flow out of them is not always stellar, yet, because it's a big jump, he gets away with it.

I have absolutely no problem with him winning. His technical content is by far superior to everyone else and it remains a sport. However, I simply wish the judges would address his weaknesses appropriately. Otherwise, it does send the message that he is what they are looking for. To me, there is a nuance. In terms of jumping, yes, he can be an inspiration for so many skaters. In terms of everything else, there are other models to strive for. That's all I am saying when I comment on him. Yup, broken record. But to me, it's important to make this nuance. Not everyone who complains about Ilia's PCS score is being dismissive or negative. In some way, the scores themselves are dismissive to other skaters with much better "components"

The good news is that we don't have to revisit this until the next event he will compete in, which is GPF .

Final side point : to me the constant comparison to Nathan Chen is flawed. Nathan was a much better all-around skater with exquisite line and posture, and better flow. His musicality was also quite good. Yes, Nathan was one of the best jumpers but he also had other qualities that for me, didn't represent a problem at all, when judges were giving him high GOEs and PCS. Nathan wasn't my favourite back then, but I had no issues with his scores because he was well-rounded.

 

[lariko]

• Skating Skills: Evaluates the quality of skating, including speed, flow, control, and power.
• Composition: Assesses how the program is constructed, including the choreography, the connection between elements, and the use of ice and space.
• Presentation: Judges how the skater performs the program, considering their musical sensitivity, expressiveness, and the overall connection with the music

actually @4everchan when you say "His posture, his edge controls, his flow, his musicality, are not on par" you say that he us is lacking in skating skill part of PCS (quality of skating) and presentation (musicality).

But like you've already said, he improved in presentation and continues to improve as he practices his program in competitive environment under pressure.

Ilia shows better speed, ice coverage and fluidity when he doesn't put 4A in, because previously this was a significant slow down in his program and you could see he was preparing for a jump. I didn't see anyone yet on the GP circuit who integrates every jump better than Ilia, particularly if you compare the jumps everyone jumps: 3A, 4S and any other triple. There is usually no strain or telegraphing when he goes into a jumping pass and when he exists from it. He wasn't the only one to start slowing down by the end of the free skate.

In terms of composition, his programs are balanced, with elements evenly distributed throughout the program and across the arena, even place equal difficulty elements throughout which very few skaters do, preferring to place biggest jumps first. Ilia just placed large combo at the end of the program. His elements highlight music/lyrics. He has choreography and he is committed to it, not leaving it out. He skates with his hands down or to the side far less than others. He even has attractive costuming in good taste both in practice and in competition. he doesn't include vulgar gestures in his programs like some skaters for cheap thrills. He has signature moves that he highlights.

I hate to put a kid on the spot, but people talk about Ilia like he skates a-la Rukhin on the last RGP stage. Now, that was literally no PCSs, no choreo, but a bunch of quads. Even in Russia it was the last place. I broke Kolyada's heart by the sound of it. Ilia does NOT skate like the unfortunate Rukhin. https://youtu.be/g87fhguTd0U?si=toijZjq96-8fAwS2

I also want to emphasize that Ilia gets an odd 9 once in a while, but mostly he gets 8s, and his PCSs are consistently below Chen's and 10 other skaters, as per document I had just quoted.

 

[Mathman]

I didn't see anyone yet on the GP circuit who integrates every jump better than Ilia, particularly if you compare the jumps everyone jumps: 3A, 4S and any other triple.

I quire agree with this point. Ilia's jumps are well integrated into the program. This is a big plus in my judgement.

 

[4everchan]

• Skating Skills: Evaluates the quality of skating, including speed, flow, control, and power.
• Composition: Assesses how the program is constructed, including the choreography, the connection between elements, and the use of ice and space.
• Presentation: Judges how the skater performs the program, considering their musical sensitivity, expressiveness, and the overall connection with the music

actually @4everchan when you say "His posture, his edge controls, his flow, his musicality, are not on par" you say that he us is lacking in skating skill part of PCS (quality of skating) and presentation (musicality).

But like you've already said, he improved in presentation and continues to improve as he practices his program in competitive environment under pressure.

Ilia shows better speed, ice coverage and fluidity when he doesn't put 4A in, because previously this was a significant slow down in his program and you could see he was preparing for a jump. I didn't see anyone yet on the GP circuit who integrates every jump better than Ilia, particularly if you compare the jumps everyone jumps: 3A, 4S and any other triple. There is usually no strain or telegraphing when he goes into a jumping pass and when he exists from it. He wasn't the only one to start slowing down by the end of the free skate.

In terms of composition, his programs are balanced, with elements evenly distributed throughout the program and across the arena, even place equal difficulty elements throughout which very few skaters do, preferring to place biggest jumps first. Ilia just placed large combo at the end of the program. His elements highlight music/lyrics. He has choreography and he is committed to it, not leaving it out. He skates with his hands down or to the side far less than others. He even has attractive costuming in good taste both in practice and in competition. he doesn't include vulgar gestures in his programs like some skaters for cheap thrills. He has signature moves that he highlights.

I hate to put a kid on the spot, but people talk about Ilia like he skates a-la Rukhin on the last RGP stage. Now, that was literally no PCSs, no choreo, but a bunch of quads. Even in Russia it was the last place. I broke Kolyada's heart by the sound of it. Ilia does NOT skate like the unfortunate Rukhin. https://youtu.be/g87fhguTd0U?si=toijZjq96-8fAwS2

I also want to emphasize that Ilia gets an odd 9 once in a while, but mostly he gets 8s, and his PCSs are consistently below Chen's and 10 other skaters, as per document I had just quoted.

I disagree with composition. But that's fine. We can have different opinions

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

I am really enjoying revisionism. Like, at least get your mudslinging straight, people.

Valieva was specifically praised as a balanced skater with uber PCSs, unlike Trusova who was a designated 'jumper' with no artistic qualities or any skating skills whatsoever. The outraged calls to give Trusova 1s and 5s in PCSs instead of 9s were just as common as what we hear for Malinin. And, Lord knows, Chen's skating skills were belittled left and right, which makes me ever more pleased that he is now elevated to a status of the Past Great.

Malinin may or may not perform well in Milan, but he sure had a great outing in this year's GP season so far with nice clean skates, using his full arsenal of quads and cooping with whatever ails him and keeps him up at night. I'll take that. I'm thrilled to have seen that free skate in Saskatoon, it was a privilege.

I'd like to recall that with Eteri girls, there was reputational PCS too. Alexandra Trusova hadn't spared endeavours during her Plushenko time. I think that her parents had more or less chosen coaches for her to be taught in Plushenko's academy, and improving her Skating Skills was clearly an objective. I remember Tweets, perhaps of 2021 Skate America and Skate Canada International, the first with Alexandra Trusova getting an accurate Level 3 and good Grade of Execution for her Step Sequence while Kamila Valieva was getting a Level 4 and high Grade of Execution for her Level 1 Step Sequence... While Anna Shcherbakova started in the best times of the team and always had programs highlighting her qualities (everything except jump technique and glide?) Specifically in the Olympic season Kamila Valieva was given horrible empty drills as programs (and I'm not speaking of the costumes for a 15-year-old) because you know, it was established that she was a complete skater? Like Nathan Chen she could get 10s in Components with a fall... and empty programs and all.
Speaking of Nathan Chen, his Components varied a lot during his competitive time. His early programs could highlight his musicality with two-foot-flat-edge-easy-steps skating, while later, he tried to deserve better Components and did experiments but never managed to have it all in a skate, to my (little) knowledge; that was for the Challenger and Grand Prix. When would come the high-stakes championships, all this vanished for jumping drills and not always catching up with the music. One of Nathan Chen's superiorities over Ilia Malinin (along with his musicality) was his conscience of his shortcomings, he didn't like Figure Skating but I think understood it better and knew more of it, I'm sure he would watch his and others' skates, at least occasionally. Ilia Malinin seems to have strictly none. He does sit his spins and have a better balance than Nathan Chen, which makes that his Element scores are less inflated (but still a lot), and I think that he also has better stamina, which was a problem for Nathan Chen or he would have skated much better, I'm sure.
Speaking of Tech Box inflation, between his Short and Free programs at Skate Canada, and admitting that what I saw rapidly as qs were really qs (which don't exist...) and not light underrotations (like Nathan Chen before him he's losing his Quadruple jumps — but not his Triple Axel, his Solo ones were fully rotated and I suppose that his +3A in sequence would have been, had he not have to save the 4S before), in jumps alone he must have been overscored by around 30 points between the two programs (about 6 for the Short, 24 for the Free):
SP 4F<
3A
4Lzq + 3T (called)

FS 4Fq
3A
4Lzq
4Lo<
4Lzq + 1Eu + 3Fq
4Tq + 3Tq
4Sq + 3A (rather < than q but let's also call it a q)
With less blind Elements scoring and the Components inflation he would still have "won" with 99 and 205 (or the like) indeed, but then the Components, I can't see any scoring grid allowing to score him even 7 in any of the three categories unless giving projection and natural over 90% of the score and being very generous on them? While "of course" giving this joy to watch that is Kazuki Tomono, with a packed program very very few could skate, his musicality, projection too, and all, small 8s... (Of course Kazuki Tomono deserved 9s in the Short; we may note that his two falls in the Free didn't impact.) Perhaps other skaters would have had the mental strength to do less errors too.
Let's make simulation, depending on how you would score his Components, and doing as judges do, practically the same score for all three categories and two programs whatever a skater's strengths and weaknesses (this is a general remark), starting from these 99 and 205 marks:
- with 8 in Components (where?), his scores would have been 94 and 195, total 289; he would have won this, but be a mere "medallable" for Olympic Games and World Championships because "men are menning" and Ilia Malinin is in a phase of consistency;
- with 7 in Components, his scores would have been 89 and 185, total 274; hardly medallable at important championships;
- with 6 in Components, his scores would have been 84 and 175, total 259; please don't extract this single line to call me names and distort the meaning of this simulation.
We may also discuss his and others' Components, not the scores, but how he's skating in comparison with his competitors; I don't know if a comparison with Kazuki Tomono or Kévin Aymoz (to take Skate Canada competitors) would be that fair, they're in another league? But with skaters with good Skating Skills, Presentation and a good Composition (with all what they entail now)?

 

[noskates]

Wow. Instead of celebrating a skater who is bringing the sport ahead in leaps and bounds (and jumps) y'all are criticizing everything from when he started skating to every little inch of his programs. Tell me who can beat him? And don't give me the bull you-know-what that the judges are all in his favor. Those judges don't have the luxury of replaying programs over and over for days on end and examining every little nuance and then coming in here and trashing everything. Can't we just sit back and enjoy the fact that he's besting everybody who steps on the ice with him? Can't we just enjoy the fact that he's extremely consistent, has more jumps in his repertoire than anyone else currently competing, and his programs aren't warhorses. This is a TOUGH crowd! I find this diminishing of Ilia and his accomplishments AND his ability to be a very sad reflection of some skating fans. And while I'm on a roll - to think that Piper and Paul have totally removed themselves from contention for an Olympic medal after ONE competition (that they won, by the way) to be extremely ludicrous. I know alot of posters love to have contentious conversations and display their so-called knowledge of figure skating, but please don't be mean about it. In the end, these skaters are doing the best they can and deserve some respect.

 

[lariko]

We may also discuss his and others' Components, not the scores, but how he's skating in comparison with his competitors; I don't know if a comparison with Kazuki Tomono or Kévin Aymoz (to take Skate Canada competitors) would be that fair, they're in another league? But with skaters with good Skating Skills, Presentation and a good Composition (with all what they entail now)?

Both Miura and Selevko outskated Aymoz and Tomono in PCSs in Saskatchewan. Reputation skating extends to PCSs expectations as well. Aymoz at best looked drab and slow with some ridiculous choreo -- at some point he was looking like a swimming instructor showing breaststroke, lol, Tomono looked fast and senseless, not letting music do anything for you and lyrics went down even worse for him (kudos for experimenting though). If Miura brought his best legs with him and Selevko didn't wipe the ice on 4S they should have had scores closer to Malinin, not Malinin should have had lower scores than he had.

I fully and wholeheartedly agree with the marks judges awarded Ilia Malinin in Saskatchewan. They are lower than Chen's or Hanyu's or Uno's, but they reflect his level compared to other competitors there. If a judge really likes him, he gets a low 9, if they don't, for a skate like he had in Saskatchewan mid to high 8s is right. He was fluid, fast, sure on his feet and committed to his program every moment.